I am Gay - if your god told you to murder me, would you murder me?

Author: Theweakeredge

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#391
ludofl3x
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@RoderickSpode
Abraham, according to Hebrews did not believe the sacrifice would result in death.
Which book of the bible is Abraham actually in, and not referred to? The actual tale doesn't say anything at all about what Abraham thought of the whole thing,  just that god told him to do it, and Abraham was so sure that he should do it he didn't even hesitate to take the kid up the mountain,. In this story, god told Abraham to kill (sacrifice as a burnt offering = dead, we agree?). How the story nds and how other books interpret it is a different topic, but do you agree that in the story in genesis, specifcally the verse I cited, god tells Abraham to kill his son? 

Are you saying the author is implying that Abraham was under the impression he was going to kill his son at God's command as a fictional character? In other words, since the author didn't mention in this chapter that Abraham was anticipating a deliverance for Isaac, then that's how we should take it if it's fiction?

Yes, they're all fictional characters to me until demonstrated otherwise, and the text reads exactly as you describe it above. 

 I don't see any reason to suspect that Abraham was expecting to kill his son
This is a pesky verse then: Gen 2:22: " "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."" So you're saying Abraham knew god was kidding? Doesn't that make god 's word suspect? How do you know if he's kidding or actually commanding? Seems a dangerous proposition on which to make a guess, considering according to your beliefs, disobedience  without repentenace results in eternal torture., and your case on judgement day basically comes down to "Wait, you were SERIOUS about that? Oh my goodness, so sorry, I was positive you were kidding, like you did with Abraham!"

Weird as unusual?
More like non-sensical. ETA: we can discuss it further in a different topic if you're interested, this one's pretty deep and the story of Abraham isn't really the topic. The command from god to a human to kill another human  was what I was responding to. Apparently Christians think that god was either kidding  and both he and Abraham knew it (this was not one of the non-sensical ways I have heard the story, it's a new one!), or you can sacrifice a burned child and it's not dead somehow. 

Would you agree that whether or not this was fact or fiction plays a big role?
As with the whole book, yes. If it's factual, let's have the demonstration, but it makes a lot more sense as a collection of ictional myths from a different civilization than it does as a fact, considering its major tales of supernatural exploits are not chronicled in any other reputable way or source. 

Abraham's focus was on Isaac being resurrected if in fact he had to plunge in the knife and kill him.
Hebrews =/= Genesis. The interpretations of the story aren't the story. How would whoever wrote Hebrews (if it's all factual) have known beyond doubt what Abraham was thinking hundreds of years earlier if that isn't in the text?
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#392
Theweakeredge
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@ludofl3x
Regardless of any of this conversation here's what we should take from the story:

Never did Abraham think it was out  of character for god to do such a thing. This implies that early Christians (Jews) saw sacrifice, specifically child sacrifice, as something that god might command. 
#393
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@Theweakeredge
It's certainly a reasonable conclusion based on the text that's in the story. There's nothing in that story that said "Abraham knew god would not let him kill his son," because that makes it difficult to have god be some supremely smart entity. Abraham would have outsmarted god, if that were the case. The lack of hesitation also seems to be painted here as him knowing there was never any real danger to Isaac, but in context of its time, it makes more sense that Abraham is simply THIS obedient that he doesn't even hesitate. It's a story about faithfulness, which requires Abraham to believe wholeheartedly that whatever god says he should do, without question or hesitation.  
#394
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@ludofl3x
Which book of the bible is Abraham actually in, and not referred to?
I'm not sure what you mean. What did I say that gave you that impression?

The actual tale doesn't say anything at all about what Abraham thought of the whole thing,  just that god told him to do it, and Abraham was so sure that he should do it he didn't even hesitate to take the kid up the mountain,. In this story, god told Abraham to kill (sacrifice as a burnt offering = dead, we agree?). How the story nds and how other books interpret it is a different topic, but do you agree that in the story in genesis, specifcally the verse I cited, god tells Abraham to kill his son? 


Not anymore than I would consider God sending Daniel to be killed by allowing the king to throw him in the furnace. Daniel was thrown in the furnace because he was doing God's will. So in that sense God pretty much sent Daniel into the furnace. Was God sending him there to be killed? Under normal circumstances, that would be the case.


Yes, they're all fictional characters to me until demonstrated otherwise, and the text reads exactly as you describe it above. 
Then we really wouldn't have much to discuss because to me they're not fictional characters until demonstrated otherwise. Are we on the same page that the characters' actual existence (and non-existence) is a key factor in our argument?


This is a pesky verse then: Gen 2:22: " "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there
as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."" So you're saying Abraham knew god was kidding? Doesn't that make god 's word suspect? How do you know if he's kidding or actually commanding? Seems a dangerous proposition on which to make a guess, considering according to your beliefs, disobedience  without repentenace results in eternal torture., and your case on judgement day basically comes down to "Wait, you were SERIOUS about that? Oh my goodness, so sorry, I was positive you were kidding, like you did with Abraham!"
Actually, it was a classic case of faith from experience. He found out that God does honor and respect the desire of his children to preserve their loved ones during the destruction of Sodom/Gomorrah affair.  I've heard it stated that this Abraham testing God. Had this not happened, he may very well not have had the faith to believe in God resurrecting Isaac. As a believer, from experience, I can relate to this wholeheartedly.



God was not kidding. The text in Hebrews states that Abraham, through faith, offered his son as a sacrifice. That's all that was required of him.

And where did you get the idea that my belief is that disobedience without repentenace results in eternal torture?

More like non-sensical. ETA: we can discuss it further in a different topic if you're interested, this one's pretty deep and the story of Abraham isn't really the topic. The command from god to a human to kill another human  was what I was responding to. Apparently Christians think that god was either kidding  and both he and Abraham knew it (this was not one of the non-sensical ways I have heard the story, it's a new one!), or you can sacrifice a burned child and it's not dead somehow. 
The idea might be a new one, but not from me.

But as far as whether or not God commands the killing of another human, then yes. In the case of capitol punishment, and wartime.

If you'd like to discuss it in another thread, I'd be willing. Would you be able to start a thread on it? I could do it, but you would know more about what exactly you're looking for.

Hebrews =/= Genesis. The interpretations of the story aren't the story. How would whoever wrote Hebrews (if it's all factual) have known beyond doubt what Abraham was thinking hundreds of years earlier if that isn't in the text?
I'm glad you allowed for (if it's factual) to be allowed in the clause. Because in this vein it's really not a problem.

I don't ultimately know for sure how, but there were other written documents to glean from. We know a number of documents have been lost. And there's also the possibility that like a number of people and authors in the bible, they received information by revelation.

#395
RoderickSpode
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@Theweakeredge

Never did Abraham think it was out  of character for god to do such a thing. This implies that early Christians (Jews) saw sacrifice, specifically child sacrifice, as something that god might command. 
No it doesn't. Israel wasn't a nation yet. There were no Jews yet. abraham was living under the influence of pagans.

Now later on some of the Jews embraced the practice of human sacrifice from their pagan neighbors. But that was in direct violation og God's command.


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#396
Theweakeredge
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@ludofl3x
And that god's apparently okay with child sacrifice, at least thats what his followers thought
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#397
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@RoderickSpode
You have any evidence for that claim? We don't even know if Abraham actually existed, much less what his influences were besides god.
#398
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@Theweakeredge
My impression was that you were basing your claim on, or by scripture. That's what I'm basing my claim on. What scripture says, whether one believes Abraham existed or not.

Or are you basing your claim on something else?
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#399
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@RoderickSpode
Just the implications of the text.
#400
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@RoderickSpode
#401
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@RoderickSpode
Daniel was thrown in the furnace because he was doing God's will. So in that sense God pretty much sent Daniel into the furnace. Was God sending him there to be killed? Under normal circumstances, that would be the case.

We're talking about Abraham, not Daniel, and god ordering one human to kill another human. 

Then we really wouldn't have much to discuss because to me they're not fictional characters until demonstrated otherwise. Are we on the same page that the characters' actual existence (and non-existence) is a key factor in our argument?
Why is it important if they're fictional or historical, in your view?  Besides eternal damnation I mean. I don't see it as a big factor really if you take that condition out, because what we're talking about is just analyzing a piece of text. 

God was not kidding. The text in Hebrews states that Abraham, through faith, offered his son as a sacrifice. That's all that was required of him.
The story of Abraham isn't in Hebrews, it's in Genesis, and in Genesis, god commands (not asks) Abraham to take his only son to the top of a mountain to be offered as a burnt sacrifice. God's word IN THIS STORY and TO ABRAHAM sounds like "slit your son's throat as you would a ewe, then burn the body in my honor on an altar, as you would a ewe." God then not following through with this command leads logically to only two conclusions: he never intended Abraham to sacrifice and burn Isaac (generously, he was kidding, cynically, we has fxcking with Abraham for no reason), or the ever unchanging god CHANGED HIS MIND.  THis all leaves aside the notion that this is a demonstration of FAITH to god at all, as he would know if ABraham was faithful or not without having to test him. Is he trying to demonstrate ABraham's faith to Abraham? What's the point of that? 

But as far as whether or not God commands the killing of another human, then yes. In the case of capitol punishment, and wartime.
And here, with Isaac. 

I don't ultimately know for sure how, but there were other written documents to glean from. We know a number of documents have been lost. And there's also the possibility that like a number of people and authors in the bible, they received information by revelation.
This is your response to how do the writers of Hebrews know what Abraham is thinking. You refer to potentially lost documents (like...what, Abraham's ancient blog? The entire area was 99.9% illiterate and they were largely concerned with how to not die overnight, not writing a diary), the 'possibility' that a number of people received a heretofore unspecified revelation. This is why you have to stick with the text of the story: none of those things are remotely reliable sources. A document that might have existed or a dream someone might have had but not written down doesn't exactly stand up to  your insistence that these are factual accounts. Imagine if I tried to present YOU with such an agument: well, documents may have been lost that showed JEsus was just basically the BC equivalent of a guy with a sandwich board, muttering on the streetcorner, therefore it's likely that I'm right. You'd not accept that, you'd as for more substantiation, right? If you're not sure how the writer of Hebrews knew, why are you treating it as if unequivocally THEY DID KNOW?  
#402
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@Theweakeredge
Remember that Abraham was 100 and his wife was 90 when they had Isaac. There was a study recently that said people who believe in the Bible have an IQ less than 92.
Albert Einstein, who had an IQ greater than 92, said a year before he died in 1954,  “The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.”
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#403
Theweakeredge
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@FLRW
Um.... first of all I don't find IQ studies very compelling, second of all that's an appeal to authority, finally could you even source the study your citing?
#404
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@Theweakeredge
ABRAHAM, Jacob, Moses, King David, and King Solomon in all his splendor, never existed, a 15-year study of archaeological evidence has concluded.
The study - by Professor Thomas Thompson, one of the world's foremost authorities on biblical archaeology - says that the first 10 books of the Old Testament are almost certainly fiction, written between 500 and 1,500 years after the events they purport to describe.
Professor Thompson's claims, outlined in a new book, The Early History of the Israelite People, are being taken seriously by scholars.

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#405
Theweakeredge
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@FLRW
Fair enough, not my main point.
#406
ethang5
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@Stephen
It was you that come onto my own thread.
This isn't your thread.

 I know. And I haven't said it is. I said it wasn't yours. Keep up sunshine.
You said, "It was you that come onto my own thread." This isn't your own thread.

I can take it then that you will not be engaging me any more. 
I will post anywhere I want at any time I want till the mods show me that its a coc violation. I suggest you do the same.

Well that was a quick change of heart and mind wasn't it.
What you "take" is not my heart or mind. Reading comprehension Stephen. Read the exchange again. Slowly.
#407
ethang5
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@Theweakeredge
Never did Abraham think it was out  of character for god to do such a thing. 
You don't know this. It is clear from the story that Abraham did not think Isaac would be killed.

But your argument has a fatal flaw. What Abraham thought is not the same as what God is. You want us to make a judgement about what God is based on what someone else thinks He is. That is neither fair or reasonable.

And that god's apparently okay with child sacrifice, at least thats what his followers thought
Which followers? There was no Hebrews at the time. And the fact is that Israel was unique among the nations in the region in that it did not practise human sacrifice.

Just the implications of the text.
The "implications" are wholly in your mind and not in the text (or in history). The reason seems to be your poor knowledge of the history of the time.
#408
Stephen
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@ethang5
It was you that come onto my own thread.
This isn't your thread.

 Yes I know. I haven't said this is my thread and I have also said it isn't yours either.


 I know. And I haven't said it is. I said it wasn't yours. Keep up sunshine.
You said, "It was you that come onto my own thread." This isn't your own thread.
That's right I did say that, but I wasn't talking about this thread. I was talking about a thread of my own that you did "come to". this one >>>> #8 ethang5 . I said I didn't invite you to it. So keep up.





#409
ethang5
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@Stephen
It was you that come onto my own thread.
This isn't your thread.


 I know. And I haven't said it is. I said it wasn't yours. Keep up sunshine.
You said, "It was you that come onto my own thread." This isn't your own thread.

That's right I did say that,...
Then you shouldn't have, as this is not you thread.

Now address the topic or go talk to someone who wants to post about irrelevant off-topic things.
#410
WesleyBColeman
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Just to be clear here, God doesn't punish those who are attracted to the same sex, nor to those who are tempted by a women or man out of wedlock. However, God does punish those who act on sinful desires for they are ungodly and act against his will. To sin is to rebel against God. It is the act of rebellion that casts one into the Demonic places, not merely God's anger. Rather, God is completely just and all the saints and angels of heaven shout out, "Oh LORD, how righteous and good is your judgement!" For God will judge man for their inequities. All have fallen short of the glory of God and all are judged by his righteousness and found lacking. Therefore, all will be sent unto Hell on judgement day, unless they repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and accept his sacrifice in our place so that we may be seen as sons and daughters of the Holy God.

To summarize, the doctrine of the Bible never calls for murder of people "attracted to men", but those who act on their worldly desires. Regardless, all fall short and man should repent and accept the grace of God into their lives. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever should believe in him, shall not parish, but have everlasting life.

As others have mentioned here, the Bible stands opposed to murder. There are many in the church who have the same struggles of attraction as you do, as well as many who have other sinful desires. This isn't anything new. However, the idea in not causing harm to your fellow human and loving thy neighbor are rooted in this modern world via the Bible and Christendom. The ideas of equality and freedom are fundamentally Christian. The abolition of slavery, sexism, human sacrifice, and the pursuit of equity and charity were and are all Christian rooted movements.

May the LORD bless you and keep you! Amen.
#411
Deb-8-a-bull
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@WesleyBColeman
I read three lines 
Thanks. 
Thank you. 

Why the big lecture WES. 

It's straight up common sense Wednesday.  

We alllllllllll know boys don't go to heaven if they kiss boys. 
Dah. 

 Welcome to the religious form post games. WesB. 

Grab ya jersey on ya go. 

Tip :  tune the posts down a little.   Orrrrrrr you can quote the bible. 



#412
WesleyBColeman
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@Deb-8-a-bull
"I read three lines 
Thanks. 
Thank you."

You're welcome. I highly recommend the whole thing, though!

"Why the big lecture WES."

It was as long as it needed to be to bring clarity on this often misrepresented issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't see any substantive remark after this quote.

Have a good day, God bless!
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#413
Theweakeredge
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@ethang5
No, we can not assume Abraham did not think his son would die, he tied Isaac down and was about to do it, the literal last second save was the lamb appearing, until then it was entirely literarily implied that Abraham would kill Isaac. So no. Thats an assumption on your part, my implications are based on the text, and you simply do not understand how one can extrapolate from a simple scene. 
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#414
Theweakeredge
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@WesleyBColeman
No, the bible specifically talks about the abominations of those who men who lay with another man (I suppose you argue lesbians are clear?) and how they ought to be put to death.
#415
ethang5
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@Theweakeredge
It is clear you don't know the story, and much less the context. But that is OK, you are like 99% of the atheists here.

Abraham told people he and his son would be back
Abraham told his son God would provide a sacrifice

We don't have to assume. Abraham did not talk like, or behave as if he thought Isaac would die. That is evident in the story itself. Your perception based on your bias is not in the story.

Here is a little context for you.

Abraham was 100 years old when God told him he would have a son. God told him that through this son, his descendants would be as numerous as the sand at the sea shore. God promised Abraham that through this son, He [God] would enact His plan for the salvation of Israel. And the bible says Abraham "believed God" on faith.

Abraham was willing to offer his son because he knew that God's promises concerning his son could not fail. He knew that this son whom God had made those promises could not die. He had no doubts.

And finally, what you think Abraham believed about God's character has nothing to do with God's actual character. It is interesting to note that the only example atheists can come up with of God telling someone to kill another, is a case where the other was not killed, and his survival was ensured by the same God you all claim asked for his death!

More curious still, none of you can say why God would ask for Isaac's death and then stop it when it was imminent.

Christians can only argue the truth, but we can't make you see it if you are invested in the idea that God is evil. 
#416
FLRW
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@ethang5
Doesn't pediatric cancer prove that God is evil?
#417
Stephen
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@FLRW
Doesn't pediatric cancer prove that God is evil?

That depends on what kind of a person you ask , but remember , there are at least 100 biblical  verses telling us that got made everything.
#418
ethang5
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@FLRW
I don't see how. But perhaps you want me to ask how for dramatic effect?
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#419
Theweakeredge
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@ethang5
Genesis 22:

1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”
“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.
“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”
8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 

The clear implication is that Abraham is prepared to kill his son, in fact, it's the angel that actually stops him, this clearly demonstrates that he believes his duty is to kill his son as god commanded

11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.”
Let's not even talk about the cities that God commanded them destroy and kill everyone within. Because you know, it would a clear as day example, and something I already  brought up.
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#420
Theweakeredge
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@ethang5
Also, I've read the bible cover to cover, I was a christian for the majority of life, etc, etc... But if I need to quote scripture to prove my point, fine.