"The bible can't cause anything".

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#31
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@Lemming
As he says people can 'look, 'evaluate, 'add to ideas,
Yes, she talks quite a lot of BS for a "qualified " Pastor and Chaplin that by all accounts has  " studiedand was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers fromthe Orthodox Church. #91
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4

Except that this is the "unalterable word of god",   And Tradesecrets knowledge of the bible  given all her "qualifications" and revered titles  has  been shown to be somewhat lacking.to put it polity 

The " academics, scholars, and priests and fathers "  must have skipped this part of her religious education; 

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it,  of the Lord your God which I command you.   

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


The  Reverend Tradesecrete is for ever rewriting these scriptures and putting words into the mouths of its authors and characters.




#32
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@Stephen
Well, all I can say is I don't dislike Tradesecret, that I think a number of the things said by them are worthwhile or at least interesting, but as they talk of religion mainly, that I've ever seen, I don't follow them enough to know them well.
Perhaps they aren't as well spoken as I think, but as I might have said other times, I consider myself only 'mildly interested in religion, thus I only look in on the religious section 'now and 'then, and thus only see Tradesecret's posts 'now and 'then.
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@Lemming
Stephen is not a Christian, he exclusively uses the bible as a means to stir up strife.

He certainly does not use the bible as we orthodox do. In fact, the way he uses the bible is the logical end of sola scriptura, a protestant belief. Really, he is only a problem for them. For us, it is easy to dismiss what he says with, "that is not what the church believes or teaches".

I am open about my beliefs. I even have opinions. Stephen here as I said, only cares about stirring up strife. 

Why such a preoccupation with abberant sexual behavior? This is a big hang up for some people. Especially the people who practice these things. Very rarely do people want to be told something contrary to what they believe, especially if that makes them wrong. People would much rather hear things that give them validation or legitimize them. But our approach to things of this nature is to be charitable, not to condemn people. However, it is not loving to tell someone a lie, especially if that lie makes them more bold in their sin.



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@Lemming
I don't dislike Tradesecret,

 Neither do I. 
 But I do dislike the way Christians   presents these scriptures as faultless when they are clearly not. 
#35
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@Stephen
You never show they are faultless - you just quote a verse and then try and make assumptions. Whenever any person shows the  passage means other that your opinion - you get narky. Or you accuse them of rewriting what it says. 

It makes it difficult to have a conversation or discussion with you.

I just don't think you are interested in the truth - just about getting your agenda out. 


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@Mopac
Stephen is not a Christian, he exclusively uses the bible as a means to stir up strife.

Are you saying then that the bible can in fact cause people to do things? 


He certainly does not use the bible as we orthodox do.
Use the bible? How do you mean, use the bible? 


For us, it is easy to dismiss what he says with, "that is not what the church believes or teaches".

 You tell us that the New Testament is the true story of the birth ,life and death of Jesus.  And that is what you teach. I just don't believe it as it has come down to us. I don't believe a dead and rotten stink corpse was brought back to life. I don't believe a man was cured with  words spoken from miles away? I don't believe a man walked on water?   But you/the church, are happy for the none thinker to believe this rubbish and to remain ignorant  and not self thinking. Those days are long gone my little monk friend.

  What I believe I that these stories of so called miracles have another meaning. I believe that there is another story altogether going on just below the surface of this garbled mess called the New Testament.  You are not forced to read to what I believe, no more than I am you.


I am open about my beliefs. I even have opinions. Stephen here as I said, only cares about stirring up strife. 
But you haven't explained how I do that using only a so called faultless book full of words that according to the Reverend Tradesecret   " can't cause anything" ,#3 
Are you  disagreeing with her/him?


Why such a preoccupation with abberant sexual behavior?
I don't know what you mean. I am straight as the come and happy in my own skin.  Joining in on a discussion started by another member who believes the bible and god want him dead is not me having a preoccupation with sexual behavior. It is me having a "preoccupation" with the bible and  what YOUR god says should be done to these people that he calls "abominations".

I do notice that you too have joined in that conversation. How many comments have you made on this one alone, Mopac, https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5125-i-am-gay-if-your-god-told-you-to-murder-me-would-you-murder-me?page=1


This is a big hang up for some people.
Commanding that someone should be executed  would be a fkn big hang up for anyone and for any reason. 


Especially the people who practice these things.
Are you saying that self confessed Homosexual Theweakeredge shouldn't take any notice that the bible and that god wants him dead and that there are Christians that believe this too AS YOU HAVE SHOWN! 

Are you saying that Theweakeredge  concerns for his safety are unfounded? And he his making a fuss about nothing?  and the "bible can't cause anything"#3 

 Was he over reacting when he said -  "I am Gay - though I am specifically pansexual - I still trend towards being attracted to men - and your god told you to murder me (like the doctrine of the bible does) would you murder me?"  _ #1. because I have noticed that you on that thread have offered not one single word of Christian comfort or reassurance to him.  And you wonder why he "has an hang up".



Very rarely do people want to be told something contrary to what they believe,
Ah, yes-  I know that.  You don't like being told that your beliefs are based on out and out lies do you.



especially if that makes them wrong.

 And especially if it is shown that your belief is shown to be misguided and based of a book full of contradictions and ambiguous half told stories.

AND while I think about it. You haven't ever met a single character mentioned in the bible have you?  Yet this book has somehow   "caused you to"  believe in god and all he has "breathed into it".  I would call that magic or even miraculous wouldn't you?    Especially for a  book full of words that, according to a "qualified" Pastor  Chaplin "cannot cause anything"!!!!!! In fact this book  that " can't cause anything" appears to have had a profound impact on the whole of your life!!!!!



People would much rather hear things that give them validation or legitimize them.
The only single way that you and people like you can attempt to give the bible any "validation" is to lie about it. 



But our approach to things of this nature is to be charitable, not to condemn people.

 And this is  you being a good charitable christian and not condemning is it?>>>>>

 #16 Mopac  It was the law.

No room for drag queen storytime in those days. It was even a matter of survival.

The fact that laws here are so lenient on this issue certainly is a charity, because it would be no wrong thing if the government passed laws punishing adulterers and sodomites. 

Well, considering how down the slope society has already slid concerning sexual morality, it might be a tad merciless at this point. 




#50   Mopac  Christians  are not commanded to kill all the butt lovers. Don't worry, you are safe......for now.,,,,,,,,,,,Just to make it clear that I am not simply picking on those who wear leather assless chaps



#102 Mopac  Of course you choose to be homosexual. [,,,,,,,,,] It all started with consent to demons. [..............................] Your homosexuality is no more innate than addiction to crack.
All very christian I must say.  You not only contradict the bible, you also contradict your own statements.
















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@Tradesecret
Address the OP.
#38
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I already have. 



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#39
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@Tradesecret
You simply know there is no getting away from such a profound statement don't you, Reverend 

And you a qualified lawyer and Chaplin and Pastor ,  supposedly a man that deals in words for a living!!!  You haven't even the common decency to explain what it is you meant by your own ridiculous and  thoughtless statement .

"The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 

 Are you saying the bible doesn't influence anyone at  any time!?  That  "it can't cause" people to believe in for instance -  life after death, so then cause them to behave in a certain way!?  And are you saying that the bible   "It can't cause " people to change their lives for the better?
 

You have rendered the bible null and void not to mention - pointless,  with your profound statement Reverend and you are far too ignorant to even realise it!   You are a disgrace to your own calling and your oath as a lawyer!
#40
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@Stephen
You simply know there is no getting away from such a profound statement don't you, Reverend 

And you a qualified lawyer and Chaplin and Pastor ,  supposedly a man that deals in words for a living!!!  You haven't even the common decency to explain what it is you meant by your own ridiculous and  thoughtless statement .

"The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 

 Are you saying the bible doesn't influence anyone at  any time!?  That  "it can't cause" people to believe in for instance -  life after death, so then cause them to behave in a certain way!?  And are you saying that the bible   "It can't cause " people to change their lives for the better?
 

You have rendered the bible null and void not to mention - pointless,  with your profound statement Reverend and you are far too ignorant to even realise it!   You are a disgrace to your own calling and your oath as a lawyer!


Quick answer. The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything.  People can look at a book, evaluate its ideas and add these to ideas they already have or don't have. 

Of Course Mises might take a different view. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5078/post-links/215971
Response to your first paragraph. I answered it and some of the other posters took it further. And answered far better than I could. 
Response to your second paragraph. Does not even deserve a reply.  That is called provocation and baiting. 
Response to your third paragraph? The Bible is a book.  In fact it is 66 books - a book case if you like - all rolled into one. It contains words.  Words in a book cannot cause anyone to do anything.  People can read the words or hear the words - and then choose how to respond to those words. But at the end of the day they are words. 
Christians - as far as I know - do not believe that the words in the Bible are supernatural. They do not think that they have magical powers.  In fact - Jesus made the point didn't to the Pharisees - you look into the scriptures and think you will find life.  The turn of the Greek question implies he was questioning their motives.  

The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything.  This is the same as a violent video game. IT cannot cause anyone to do anything. Watching porn cannot cause people to do anything.  They have no intrinsic power by themselves. 

How people respond to these items - is a matter of the person who is using or reading them.  It always comes back to the individual.  Will words influence? Good question. But is influence the same as cause? And I would say no.   Will words inspire? Yes. But this is the same as cause. Again I would say no.  And the reason why I say no is because it is not a repeatable thing. It does not happen to every person every time. In other words, for something to be causing anything - it needs to be consistently doing so. That is how science works - that is how we understand cause and effect.  Alcohol for instance is often used by defendants to excuse their crimes. They say - the drink made me do it.  But this gets laughed out of court. Yes, alcohol has an influence on the person.  Just like it has on many people.  But the alcohol did not cause the person to commit the crime. 

Some people read the bible and do one thing. Others do another.  There is no CAUSE and EFFECT relationship with the bible and people.  IT simply is false to say so. 

As another poster up above indicated using the old - guns do not kill people argument.  It is people who kill people. IF everyone who reads the bible did exactly the same effect then a case might be made that it CAUSES people to do that thing.  But just because some people read it - and think - something and do something is not the CAUSE of the bible. It is the way the person who reads it reacts or responds to the words.  The two are quite different things. 


Response to your final paragraph. Another response is not needed.  Attacking me all of the time - makes you look weak and lack credibility. You do know what ad hominin means don't you. 
#41
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@Mopac
But you can't go orthadox because that means you will go insane.
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@Tradesecret


The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything. 

 Well any educated person will know  that it can and does.. The  words of the scriptures for instance "have caused Mopac" to want to be a monk. He has even given  it a go and will be returning to his monk home in the near future..

 Another poster here claims that the words of   just two verse of the bible in particular  had "Caused him" to believe that the whole bible was true and to be the word of god.

 The bible even  CAUSES   people to want to do the "lords work".  what does that mean?  it means ACTING on words.  So stop with your semantic lawyer bullshit. 


Words are influential and they are POWERFUL.  Written  Words can cause people to breakdown.  Written Words  can cause people to be brave. Written Words  can cause people to do all sorts of things. 

But you simply didn't even  consider any of this before making your stupid. thoughtless and pathetic throw away statement in your haste to defend your scriptures and your god. 

 You have had plenty of time to come here to this thread and explain or even retract your pathetic and illiterate thoughtless statement.  What ever caused you to come here this late in the game?  Was it words written to you by someone else that finely caused you to face  the charge of ignorance and thoughtlessness that I have brought against you. 

Your statement is wrong, totally. Words cause among many other things,  death,  even written ones.   Your god calls himself  "THE WORD ",  why do you think that is Chaplin, Pastor Lawyer?




  Attacking me all of the time -

 NO, NO. NO. Stop playing victim, again.

You mean quoting you a lot of the time.  such as here   >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3

When we all know  "a book full of words"  can cause many things to happen. 




#43
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@Stephen
The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything. 

 Well any educated person will know  that it can and does.. The  words of the scriptures for instance "have caused Mopac" to want to be a monk. He has even given  it a go and will be returning to his monk home in the near future..

 Another poster here claims that the words of   just two verse of the bible in particular  had "Caused him" to believe that the whole bible was true and to be the word of god.

 The bible even  CAUSES   people to want to do the "lords work".  what does that mean?  it means ACTING on words.  So stop with your semantic lawyer bullshit. 


Words are influential and they are POWERFUL.  Written  Words can cause people to breakdown.  Written Words  can cause people to be brave. Written Words  can cause people to do all sorts of things. 

But you simply didn't even  consider any of this before making your stupid. thoughtless and pathetic throw away statement in your haste to defend your scriptures and your god. 

 You have had plenty of time to come here to this thread and explain or even retract your pathetic and illiterate thoughtless statement.  What ever caused you to come here this late in the game?  Was it words written to you by someone else that finely caused you to face  the charge of ignorance and thoughtlessness that I have brought against you. 

Your statement is wrong, totally. Words cause among many other things,  death,  even written ones.   Your god calls himself  "THE WORD ",  why do you think that is Chaplin, Pastor Lawyer?




  Attacking me all of the time -

 NO, NO. NO. Stop playing victim, again.

You mean quoting you a lot of the time.  such as here   >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3

When we all know  "a book full of words"  can cause many things to happen. 
You are such a fraud - it is amazing you can sleep at night.  LOL!

Not one scrap of evidence that the Bible caused anything. LOL -  Listen dear Stephen, the bible is a book of words. It does not have a mind of its own. It does not have legs or arms. It does not have the free will to do anything. Like any book, it tells a story. To suggest the Bible can do anything is like saying - someone could read your words and go out and commit suicide. Certainly I have read your words and thought "I need a drink". I sometimes feel like pulling my hair out when I read your drivel. 

But your words don't actually cause me to do these things.  Words are words. You simply did not engage with anything I wrote. You are a worse than a fraud. 

The Bible did not cause Mopac to become a monk. Mopac chose to become a monk.  And if Mopac had read the words of the bible - rather than listen to the Church and his mentors he would never have become a monk. But let's say for the argument he read the bible and after doing so - he evaluated what he read - responded to it - and made a choice. But the Bible did not make or cause him to do it.  Influence - is not CAUSE.  Please go to school and try and figure out the difference. 

The Bible is a book - it can't do anything but be read.  And when people read it - people will respond to it. And they will do differently depending on who they are. 

just because words are powerful does not mean that they can cause you to do anything. It is a nonsense argument.  And You know it - or perhaps you don't. LOL. Well perhaps you really a little green man. 

As for you attacking me - I am not playing victim - I am calling you out. Big difference.  Although I suspect that bullies and trolls would not appreciate the difference. 

In another post to a fellow poster you commented about Ethang's change of behaviour. I could not help but think that you described your self perfectly.  

You are a FRAUD.  And worse than that - you are a pseudo fraud.  You don't even know it. 


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@Tradesecret
The bible CANNOT cause anyone to do anything. 

 Well any educated person will know  that it can and does.. The  words of the scriptures for instance "have caused Mopac" to want to be a monk. He has even given  it a go and will be returning to his monk home in the near future..

 Another poster here claims that the words of   just two verse of the bible in particular  had "Caused him" to believe that the whole bible was true and to be the word of god.

 The bible even  CAUSES   people to want to do the "lords work".  what does that mean?  it means ACTING on words.  So stop with your semantic lawyer bullshit. 


Words are influential and they are POWERFUL.  Written  Words can cause people to breakdown.  Written Words  can cause people to be brave. Written Words  can cause people to do all sorts of things. 

But you simply didn't even  consider any of this before making your stupid. thoughtless and pathetic throw away statement in your haste to defend your scriptures and your god. 

 You have had plenty of time to come here to this thread and explain or even retract your pathetic and illiterate thoughtless statement.  What ever caused you to come here this late in the game?  Was it words written to you by someone else that finely caused you to face  the charge of ignorance and thoughtlessness that I have brought against you. 

Your statement is wrong, totally. Words cause among many other things,  death,  even written ones.   Your god calls himself  "THE WORD ",  why do you think that is Chaplin, Pastor Lawyer?




  Attacking me all of the time -

 NO, NO. NO. Stop playing victim, again.

You mean quoting you a lot of the time.  such as here   >>> "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3

When we all know  "a book full of words"  can cause many things to happen. 
LOL!

LOL - 

LOL
 You can "lol" as many times as you wish , Reverend. But your  statement is  simply wrong  not  to mention thoughtless and  irresponsible.  And you a dealer in words.

 The  words in the bible have caused people to want to spread the word of god and those same words in the bible has caused them to want to do his work.  Why do you think that this urge is  referred to as a " calling, " Reverend? 

 I think you have lied about yourself from day one Tradesecrete. Not that it is important to me. You may well  work part time for the Samaritans  or even The Red Cross in NSW or Sydney  either is to be highly commended... if this be the case of course.     But as  for the rest of your imagined status and  imagined qualifications, you have shown everything BUT intelligence or  knowledge of the scriptures  considering all the fields you claim to be  qualified in, here >>> #20

 You never did say which  academics & tutors that you actually studied under , did you?

I studied
 and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church. 
#91
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4
Imagination eh. 
#45
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You can "lol" as many times as you wish , Reverend. But your  statement is  simply wrong  not  to mention thoughtless and  irresponsible.  And you a dealer in words.
but it brings me joy. And others too. 

 The  words in the bible have caused people to want to spread the word of god and those same words in the bible has caused them to want to do his work.  Why do you think that this urge is  referred to as a " calling, " Reverend? 
I notice you chose AGAIN not to engage with my points.  Words are words. And that is all they are.  A calling is not from the bible - it is from GOD the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not the Bible.  You really need to learn how to read. 

 I think you have lied about yourself from day one Tradesecrete. Not that it is important to me. You may well  work part time for the Samaritans  or even The Red Cross in NSW or Sydney  either is to be highly commended... if this be the case of course.     But as  for the rest of your imagined status and  imagined qualifications, you have shown everything BUT intelligence or  knowledge of the scriptures  considering all the fields you claim to be  qualified in, here >>> #20
I could care less what your opinion is about me.  It does not change the facts.  My personal life is my personal life. If I used part of my personal life to make a point, then so be it.  I speak from real life - not from the imaginary parts of my alleged brain.   I have downplayed my qualifications. It is you who seem to think they are important. LOL! It is you who chose to make them part of this discussion. Yes, I volunteered the information originally in context within a particular discussion. Yet you have endeavored on almost every occasion since then to try and make it the main point of discussion.  It is you who have the issue not me. AND do you really EXPECT that I am going to prove to you on this public forum my qualifications without revealing my name? Surely even you are not that DUMB.  



 You never did say which  academics & tutors that you actually studied under , did you?

I studied
 and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church. 
#91
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4953-apostasy-from-true-christianity?page=4
Imagination eh. 

That is true. And I never will. Because it is none of your business. And my quote above was directed not at you, but at Mopac. He can ask me. He can pm if he really wants to know. But it is frankly none of your business, since you are a fraud. At least the Brother is clear about his fraud.  In his own small way there is some intellectual honesty about his persona.
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@Tradesecret
Attacking me all of the time -

I would like you to explain to me  what you mean by  " attacking you all of the time" ?

And show me where I keep  "attacking you all the time"? 


 I think this post by your best new buddy needs your urgent attention.   #29




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@Tradesecret
A calling is not from the bible - it is from GOD the Holy Spirit.

 How does he do that?  It wouldn't be by the use words would it? 


Attacking me all of the time -

I would like you to explain to me  what you mean by  " attacking you all of the time" ?

And show me where I keep  "attacking you all the time"? 


 I think this post by your best new buddy needs your urgent attention.   #29



#48
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@Stephen
The Holy Spirit is not the Bible. The bible is words.  I am not sure why you are attempting to conflate the two. 

Your know exactly the way you attack me. It is always an attempt to ridicule me.  It is not like I need to remind you - just in order for you to use this as some how suggesting I am a victim.  

As for Ethan's post - go and ask him. I am not his keeper. And if you care - ask him - and if he cares he might respond. And if he does not - then you will just need to suck it up. 


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#49
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@Tradesecret
The bible is words.
All books are full of words, Reverend


 I am not sure why you are attempting to conflate the two. 
It was you that brought the "holy spirit" into mix, Reverend. It wasn't me. . You said your calling was from god not the bible. I have simply asked you did god use words to call you? 
 

Your know exactly the way you attack me.

No I do not. . So I would like to know how it is that you believe I am attacking you.


It is always an attempt to ridicule me. 
How?  Give me some examples how I "ridicule you"? or attempt to?



It is not like I need to remind you - just in order for you to use this as some how suggesting I am a victim. 

 But you do. You see, you keep suggesting  that I am  "attacking you and ridiculing you"  also suggesting that you are somehow a victim without offering a single example.  So I do need to be reminded of how you believe I am "attacking you" . 
 

As for Ethan's post - go and ask him.

 I have . And he confirms what I believe and contrary to what you have said. Do you remember what you said?  Here you go>> ""The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 



I am not his keeper.
I know. But I think he  may believe he is yours,Reverend



And if you care - ask him - and if he cares he might respond.
I have and he has.  And  contrary to your thoughtless stupid statement that you are still trying to defend although I have shown you to be hopelessly wrong about.  


And if he does not - then you will just need to suck it up. 
 I said he has replied and  more than adequately and in great &  precise detail.  See here how detailed and explicit he made his point >>>  #29. And what he wrote is in complete contrast to your own belief that  "words are just words" . #45    And "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 

He clearly states that it was  bible  " verses told me what to do in order to find out if the words were true. I did it and found out the bible is true. Had I done it and not found out, I would have concluded the bible is not true". 
 
 Just 40 words from just two verses in the bible " Jhn 7:16 - &  Jhn 7:17"  , he says.



 Do you see. He had an Epiphany of sorts , caused by the words of the bible? The same book that you say  "can't cause anything",#3 

 






#50
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@Stephen
The bible is words.
All books are full of words, Reverend


 I am not sure why you are attempting to conflate the two. 
It was you that brought the "holy spirit" into mix, Reverend. It wasn't me. . You said your calling was from god not the bible. I have simply asked you did god use words to call you? 
 

Your know exactly the way you attack me.

No I do not. . So I would like to know how it is that you believe I am attacking you.


It is always an attempt to ridicule me. 
How?  Give me some examples how I "ridicule you"? or attempt to?



It is not like I need to remind you - just in order for you to use this as some how suggesting I am a victim. 

 But you do. You see, you keep suggesting  that I am  "attacking you and ridiculing you"  also suggesting that you are somehow a victim without offering a single example.  So I do need to be reminded of how you believe I am "attacking you" . 
 

As for Ethan's post - go and ask him.

 I have . And he confirms what I believe and contrary to what you have said. Do you remember what you said?  Here you go>> ""The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 



I am not his keeper.
I know. But I think he  may believe he is yours,Reverend



And if you care - ask him - and if he cares he might respond.
I have and he has.  And  contrary to your thoughtless stupid statement that you are still trying to defend although I have shown you to be hopelessly wrong about.  


And if he does not - then you will just need to suck it up. 
 I said he has replied and  more than adequately and in great &  precise detail.  See here how detailed and explicit he made his point >>>  #29. And what he wrote is in complete contrast to your own belief that  "words are just words" . #45    And "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3 

He clearly states that it was  bible  " verses told me what to do in order to find out if the words were true. I did it and found out the bible is true. Had I done it and not found out, I would have concluded the bible is not true". 
 
 Just 40 words from just two verses in the bible " Jhn 7:16 - &  Jhn 7:17"  , he says.



 Do you see. He had an Epiphany of sorts , caused by the words of the bible? The same book that you say  "can't cause anything",#3 

How many times to do have to humiliate yourself before you get it? The Bible is a book of Words. No book is able to cause anyone to do anything. Words are words. Words may be powerful. Words may be influential. But that cannot cause you to do anything. Neither Mopac nor Ethang5 said that the words caused them to do anything. Stop mischaracterizing their words. You see, even you are not caused to do anything with their words. You respond to them.

I have already discussed Mopac and given him the opportunity to respond. Ethang5 did not say the words in the bible caused him to do anything. 

"The verses told me what to do in order to find out if the words were true. I did it and found out the bible is true. Had I done it and not found out, I would have concluded the bible is not true. All you need is to read more slowly and take off the bias glasses." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5044/post-links/219889

Can you even read Stephen? "The verses told me" ...  "I did it" ... had I not done it.  Ethang is not saying the Bible caused him to do something. He is indicating that he read the words - or even that the bible spoke to him.  But he responded to those words. And please notice - Ethang5 could have chosen to respond passively.  But the BIBLE DID not cause him to do anything.  He read the words - he evaluated what they were saying -and HE CHOSE to respond and to believe.  If the Bible could cause anything - why did it not simply make him believe "without asking Ethang to do anything". 

You are a joke. You twist words around and make them say something they do not say.  Words cannot CAUSE people to do anything. Even the words of a judge saying "You are guilty and you are going directly to prison" does not cause the person to go to prison.  People must respond. And if the person does not choose to go to prison - then the police will respond and ensure that he does.  But the words do not cause it to happen. People respond to words. 

Words can certainly influence - but that is as much as they can do. They don't have power to cause.  People reading or hearing words - MUST react and respond to the words. If people don't react - or respond which is clearly the case with many people. For instance - Stephen - you read the words of the Bible - but do you hear and believe? No - you react or respond to those words. IT does not cause you to believe or you would believe. But you don't believe so it is not causing anything. In fact the words of the bible make you react in all sorts of ways - repulsiveness towards God - and towards people. But they don't cause it. The words are for all to read. Just like porn is there for people to watch.  Just like violent video games exist to play. They don't cause people to do anything. People have to watch or read or play and evaluate and do something.  Words and pictures are powerful and incredibly influential - but they are not the CAUSE of anything. People will evaluate and respond differently. And to suggest otherwise is to give the book something a persona.  

If it could be established that a book could cause people to do something - then people who kill others in the name of God using a book as their authority and cause - would be able to argue that they did not have mens rea. That they had been acted on by a force outside of their control and without their free will. In legal terms we would say that person had become an automaton. Yet, this has never been upheld by any court in the Western World.  And the reason is because it is nonsense to attribute cause to a book. 
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Stephen
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@Tradesecret
Can you even read Stephen?
I can and you have said ""words are just words" . #45    And "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything",#3  



Strange then, how my words  are causing you to respond.  Have my words embarrassed you in any way?   I know my words have somehow magically caused you to feel "mocked",  because you told me that yourself.  But how?  You have also told me that you consider my words to be an attack on you, How?  Could you explain how my words are causing you to feel both mocked and attacked?

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@Tradesecret
 Words which I have said before are words. Yes powerful words. Influential Words.
You have said : " "Words are words. And that is all they are". #45 ,  but by your own admission words  are not JUST words . Look above Reverend.   You have now admitted that words are ALSO powerful AND ALSO influential and  like I have been saying all along.


And indeed  they are aren't they, Reverend!  TOOK YOUR TIME ADMITTING THAT haven't you Reverend!!!!! But  until this very point you have said they are just words and can't cause anything."  and   "the words of the bible are just words and the bible cannot cause anything"  ( not to mention GODS! words).



But not able to cause to do anything.

And right back to square one.

You are just finding it hard to swallow that you couldn't have been more wrong aren't you. It was a  mindless and uneducated statement to make and you know it. 

You keep saying I am "attacking" you. But I have never met you. I have never spoken to you face to face,  or on the phone yet you say I mock you. HOW!? 


You might evaluate them and respond to them - but that is still you doing the responding or non-responding. 

 What do you mean by  "responding to them" - words? How do  simple words that are just words make people to respond? 

 You have been denying words do not cause anyone to do anything, "they are just words", you have repeated this a few times now.



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@Tradesecret


"The verses told me" ...  "I did it" ... had I not done it.  Ethang is not saying the Bible caused him to do something. He is indicating that he read the words - or even that the bible spoke to him.  But he responded to those words. And please notice - Ethang5 could have chosen to respond passively.  But the BIBLE DID not cause him to do anything.  He read the words - he evaluated what they were saying -and HE CHOSE to respond and to believe.  If the Bible could cause anything - why did it not simply make him believe "without asking Ethang to do anything". 
Thank you Tradesecret. We are in complete agreement.

Can you even read Stephen?
Sometimes I wonder the same thing too.
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@Tradesecret
"The verses told me" ...  "I did it" ... had I not done it.  Ethang is not saying the Bible caused him to do something. He is indicating that he read the words - or even that the bible spoke to him.  But he responded to those words. And please notice - Ethang5 could have chosen to respond passively.  But the BIBLE DID not cause him to do anything.  He read the words - he evaluated what they were saying -and HE CHOSE to respond and to believe.  If the Bible could cause anything - why did it not simply make him believe "without asking Ethang to do anything". 


But he is saying exactly that.  The words  "told"  Ethang5,  as  he clearly admits it,    he says so.   And he responded  to those words  that" spoke to him". His "response " was  CAUSED by those words. 

 You can play semantics all day Reverend. But words do cause people to respond, act and feel, in all sorts of ways. 




#55
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@Stephen
"The verses told me" ...  "I did it" ... had I not done it.  Ethang is not saying the Bible caused him to do something. He is indicating that he read the words - or even that the bible spoke to him.  But he responded to those words. And please notice - Ethang5 could have chosen to respond passively.  But the BIBLE DID not cause him to do anything.  He read the words - he evaluated what they were saying -and HE CHOSE to respond and to believe.  If the Bible could cause anything - why did it not simply make him believe "without asking Ethang to do anything". 


But he is saying exactly that.  The words  "told"  Ethang5,  as  he clearly admits it,    he says so.   And he responded  to those words  that" spoke to him". His "response " was  CAUSED by those words. 

 You can play semantics all day Reverend. But words do cause people to respond, act and feel, in all sorts of ways. 

I am not the one playing semantics.  Your argument is proving too much.  Essentially you are saying that everything causes everything. After all, we and everything responds somehow to everything around it.  It takes the entire notion of cause and makes it mean nothing. 

Cause - is an active verb.  I caused this. Words are passive by definition. When I say words are powerful and influential - I still mean that they are just words.  Just because a word is a powerful expression does not stop it from being just a word. When a word is influential does not stop it from being just a word. 

A word in a book, a picture on a screen, or even music - are all tools that can be used for communicating messages.  But they don't have the capacity to CAUSE anything. 

You need to be able to demonstrate that any particular sentence in any particular book that anyone reads CAUSES everyone who reads it to respond in exactly the same way. IF it does not cause EVERY person who reads it to respond in exactly the same way, then it is not correct to say the book causes anything.  IF reading the bible - every person who read particular words in Exodus becomes homophobic, then you would have some substance to your argument. Yet, if most  people do not become homophobic after reading those words, then it cannot be said to cause homophobia. 

Your comments on this site, under your logic, or using your reasoning, could be construed as CAUSING people to become homophobic. In fact some of your words could be construed using your reasoning, to say it caused some to kill themselves by suicide.  Is that something you think is reasonable. Because then we could say that you killed these people. You caused it to happen by your words.  

I, on the other hand, would suggest that your words are just words. Words which might be reckless, negligent or even foolish.  Yet words all the same.  How people choose to respond to your words - is a cause from within that person not from the words you said.  How I choose to respond is a matter for me - not a cause by you. Yes, I have said you have attacked me.  And you have done that with your words.  But that is not a cause.  When I respond by either ignoring you or by responding back in kind, it is me ACTIVELY responding. Yet it me who is ultimately responsible because the way in which I respond is CAUSED by myself.  You might provoke me. But provocation is not even recognized by the law any more as a defence.  A girl who dresses in provocative clothing is not causing the guy to rape her. Yet that is your argument.  You say at least in your argument that the way a girl dresses provokes or causes the man to rape her. Provocation may well contribute to the manner in which the man responds - but it is not the cause.  

IF a girl is unfaithful to her husband, and he slaps her. He has responded to the circumstance.  Yet her action has not caused his response.  His response is caused by himself. He alone is responsible.  

#56
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@Deb-8-a-bull
But ummmm
Do you have a link?
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@Tradesecret
A word in a book, a picture on a screen, or even music - are all tools that can be used for communicating messages.  But they don't have the capacity to CAUSE anything. 
Imagine if all a criminal had to tell the judge to avoid prosecution was The Catcher In The Rye, or Helter Skelter made me do it.
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fauxlaw
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"Cause" is a word overplayed by this string. My OED defines "cause" as: "That which produces an effect; that which gives rise to any action, phenomenon, or condition. Cause and effect are correlative terms."

The issue of whether words, spoken, written, or represented by abstract graphics must be broken down, not by simply the record of a third-person, impartial observer watching person 2 first seeing/reading/interpreting something person 1 produced in writing, speaking, or graphically produced. No, it is the [subjective person 3] analysis of person 2's interpretation of person 1's product. As we [collectively being person 3] cannot witness what person 2 thinks in interpretation, we can only observe the reaction, if any, of the second person. But to surmise cause, we leap beyond logic to assume that the first person's product caused the second person's visible [to us] reaction. We do not see the interpretation performed by the second person. Given our endowed free agency [granted, not in all countries, but I speak of the U.S.] we can only assume the cause is the product of person 1, or, in the subject at hand, the Bible. However, it's that interpretive step by person 2 we ignore. Is not that the cause of person 2's action, good or bad? Person 2 could decide to do nothing, as well as decide to act badly. "The devil made me do it" is a popular excuse, particularly in this P.C.-drivel world of personal victimization, but I don't buy it for a second. Each person is, 99.9% of the time, personally responsible for their personal actions. Period.
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@Tradesecret
"The verses told me" ...  "I did it" ... had I not done it.  Ethang is not saying the Bible caused him to do something. He is indicating that he read the words - or even that the bible spoke to him.  But he responded to those words. And please notice - Ethang5 could have chosen to respond passively.  But the BIBLE DID not cause him to do anything.  He read the words - he evaluated what they were saying -and HE CHOSE to respond and to believe.  If the Bible could cause anything - why did it not simply make him believe "without asking Ethang to do anything". 


But he is saying exactly that.  The words  "told"  Ethang5,  as  he clearly admits it,    he says so.   And he responded  to those words  that" spoke to him". His "response " was  CAUSED by those words. 

 You can play semantics all day Reverend. But words do cause people to respond, act and feel, in all sorts of ways. 


Your argument is proving too much. 

 That will be your pride and arrogance forcing you to continuously deny your thoughtless throwaway  statement that "words are ONLY words ". #45  And that " the bible is JUST a book that can't cause nothing"#3    to be absolutely wrong.


Essentially you are saying that everything causes everything
No.. We are talking about WORDS.
  And do not attempt to put your words into my mouth.

I am not one of your biblical characters or authors who's word's you often  replace  with your own conjecture, thoughts ,  beliefs and imaginings in a desperate attempt  to pass them off as "gospel truth".


You keep saying I am "attacking" you. But I have never met you. I have never spoken to you face to face,  or on the phone yet you say I mock you. HOW!? 


Strange then, how my words  are causing you to respond.  Have my words embarrassed you in any way?   I know my words have somehow magically caused you to feel "mocked",  because you told me that yourself,  but how?  You have also told me that you consider my words to be an attack on you, How?  Could you explain how my words are causing you to feel both mocked and attacked?


You might evaluate them and respond to them - but that is still you doing the responding or non-responding. 

 What do you mean by  "responding to them" - words? How do  simple words that are "just words "cause  people to respond? 

 You have been denying words do not cause anyone to do anything, "they are just words", you have repeated this a few times now. you have said the same about the bible here:

" the bible is JUST a book that can't cause nothing"#3 








#60
Tradesecret
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@Stephen
Respond to my whole post. 

Explain your conundrum about females wearing clothes that are provocative. 

Do you think that doing so - causes men to rape woman? 

Or will you wimp out of dealing with the issue like you do everytime things get tough? 

If words can be a cause - then so can photos and so can videos and so can clothing. Each communicates in passive ways. 

The way that people respond in each and every occasion is a matter for the individual - and total responsibility and cause lies with the person responding. 

Unless of course you do accept that men are caused to rape woman because of the clothes that woman wear?