Transgender - Discussion/Education

Author: Theweakeredge

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#91
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@Theweakeredge
Interesting - What I was saying is that whenever there is something proposed, say the existence of a soul, it is then necessarily true that the person who made the claim has now a burden of proof to make that claim true. Regardless of one's implications, you would have to do the leg work to make this certain.

I haven't specifically made a claim saying that "hey, a soul exists" lol. First I wanted to get the point across that having a soul answers specific questions. In return, you may have greater faith that one might exist. As I said, if the soul exists many pieces of the puzzle should begin to fit together. At least to the point where you are able to consider it. I've already admitted I can't "prove" this to you, because often times spirituality is an inward quality/reality not a collective one in terms of demonstration, as well the soul is an inward quality not necessarily a physical external one. So basically I'm left with trying to put together a puzzle for you so that you have a complete picture of what could exist.
Having said that, the soul IS YOU. How I can prove to you that YOU exist should be pretty simple ;D now I just have to get you to believe that you are a soul and not a series of neural firing and I'm confident that I can do such. You may not admit it, but I'll get you thinking about it.

That does make sense I know of certain users who would no doubt stop the train at the very beginning of the conversation. I think there is a certain value in regarding propositions that you believe to not be evidenced. A) Because you could always be incorrect, and B) Because they could offer a perspective on grounds agreed. So I try not to dismiss claims due to something like that.

Wait a minute here, I'm not avoiding anything if that's what you mean. I don't think it is worth discussing simply because I've already decided and thought about it and I'd rather not go haywire on this topic. I think we'd be better off keeping this as tight as we can for the time being seeing as this could turn into a book and it's only been a few exchanges lol.
Lets get back to this later if you truly believe it makes sense that a soul exists but not God, for now when I say it's an illogical premise just assume I've put a lot of time in the subject to be very efficient with what is true.

Unfortunately, I would disagree, I presume the implication that we wouldn't, therefore, know where or why these souls or spirits existed without a god? The problem with that is that regardless of what may or may not be more complicated it's just the truth of the word, others have their ways of justifying it, me myself do not accept either proposition, so I suppose this is a nonpoint.

Let me back up a hair here just for the heck of it. I'll say this.....the substance of the soul and of God are one and the same. When I say "God" I'm talking about the original state of the whole platform out of which everything originates, the Reality that encompasses all of creation including the soul. When I say soul, I'm talking about a reduced, limited and confined version of that on a tiny scale (within God/within creation). The same thing that God is, is what the soul is made of only God is in full form and the soul a fraction of that Reality. God can't create a soul out of some other substance because consciousness is only consciousness, life is only life there are no other means of creating it. I can articulate how God would do that later on.

So while the soul does have an origin, it is still of One Reality, or from a Singular Reality which has no origins. So if the soul exists God MUST exist, one comes before the other. If you say God does not exist and yet a soul exists, now you have to account for millions of souls and where did millions of souls come from?? now you have a big problem on your hands that you must account for with solid reasoning and logic.

I don't have to account for millions of souls that came from somewhere, all souls come out of One Soul so all we have to account for is God. And the One Soul (God) is a unified omnipresent Force, awareness itself is the very backdrop of our universe and that which extends before and after it. The only other property that extends from this first Reality is energy, both energy and conscious activity (awareness) co-exist, and I attempt to explain how that works but now we're getting a bit too far ahead. I was hoping at least first getting you to consider a soul and how that relates to this topic.

If you study quantum mechanics it basically proposes the same scenario only they have no conception of God yet (mainly because awareness itself is not detectable as what it is). All things seem to come back to one unified, interconnected foundation or "fabric" that all other things derive from. This always seems to make more sense in the grand scheme of things and deals with the infinite regression paradox. I can get more into detail about that later. So for now lets stick to a tried and true method here, the soul is more than always associate with God, or has its origins in God. 

Again - you insinuate some larger research or insight, as well as presume the soul and such, which, given my framing of this conversation I will grant. I don't see you as someone who particularly fits into the brand of someone who doesn't understand transgender people, well, I suppose that you have a take on the situation, but I do not see it as valid per se, at least not with the same weight that I give to the psychological perspectives

Psychological perspectives are a fleeting occurrence and while they have a card in the game you have not yet dealt with the core of the person whereas I am. You may not see this as important or significant but I assure you souls (people) are not made up of brain activity, emotions or psychological issues, there is a succession of events that stem from a core. You're only targeting that which may have some influence on that core. You don't lend weight to this of course because you're an atheist.
There is a larger research and insights, this of course falls within the boundaries of spirituality and insights presented by sources that correlate with this nature. There is an available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid and in this case it is the whole of spiritual or transcendent phenomenon, which I have put many hours and years into cross referencing and learning from my own observations and experience.
I'm not just blowing smoke out my azz lol.

I'm actually heavily and solidly against the proposition that a soul exists.

I figured, but again you have not accounted for the full scope of human experience if you are. You basically ignored it because you don't think a soul exists. I'm bringing it to your attention now though so hopefully you don't just dismiss it anymore. What I mean by account for it is that you acknowledge the proposition is there, consider the wide range of experience and evidence that surround it and give reason or argument why you think it's not legit or plausible. That would be better than just pretending it's not there.


#92
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I agree that most relgious people and organizations wouldn't give it a second thought, and I applaud you for your obvious thought to the matter. However, whereas you see me as assuming souls don't exist, I presume you are assuming they do (A note, I will get to your post on my "Does God exist" page, I had a set back and most of my response was deleted, but it'll take a little bit longer to get to.)

I'm not assuming souls exists, I have good reason and look at all the evidence to propose it. I also regard my own observations and experience as being a source of what I know.

While I don't disagree that your idea of a soul and transgender don't contradict one another, I want to point out that it adds another, unneccesary level to the equation, similar to what you noted earlier, except this time it;s with regards to the plausibility and not simply how a position works intrinsinically.

I'm going to disagree with you here (as I explained earlier) and since there is not a real argument in this statement let's just call it our opinions for now.

Um... just because something is a possibility, that does not make it a likely possibility.

Lol really? why can't it be a likely possibility if there is sound evidence and obvious correlation that support it? we have more than a possibility though I'm just being modest here. I'm trying to show you the logistics involved. It's funny how atheists always grant spiritual sided things that take place as being unlikely rather than likely. Any biases here?

Something which is supernatural is by the laws of physics: impossible, and therefore if anyone were to claim it would need strong evidence than an appeal to populum. Else, one could also justify: The earth being flat, aliens visiting earth, the sun revolving around the sun, etc, etc... My point is, tesimonial "evidence" which is so loose 95% of the time isn't trust worthy in the first place, the other 5% that have other plausible reasonings not to mention.

BTW I'm not appealing to what is popular I'm appealing to actual evidence and how it is defined. Whether or not you accept the evidence is your choice, but I look at all things surrounding a claim, so yes....it does depend on what is being proposed. NDE's are a direct fit with this proposition (soul), whether or not you like that is your personal problem. If there is a proposition being made, then there should be clear evidence to support it and in this case there's a perfect match. So why doesn't it count? and if it does count (which it does) maybe you should consider it more seriously.

The problem with the first claim is that is lacks evidence, the second question is a misunderstanding: Something which is simpler is not always the preferred solution, something with the least amount of assumptions are. One way is based on multi-layered scientifically verrified fact,  one is based on the (to me at least) assumption that sould exist, but I digress.

When you say lacks evidence I simply have to disagree. Science is only compatible the the physical/material side of things. So as I told you before we have to look at correlating evidence and sources not limited studies. Again, I wish you would stop assuming that I'm assuming a soul exists. I'm trying to show you I have good reason and insight to believe so, so that there are no assumptions being made.

I find each of these claims interesting, but even if I were to presume a soul, I'd have to ask, why are all of these seemingly arbitrary properties being ascribed to it?

Like what? what properties specifically have bothered you? when you use the term arbitrary I can't help but to feel insulted, because this has nothing to do with me or what I feel or want. This is precisely in accordance with a system of reason which has nothing to do with myself. So please make no assumptions about the integrity of my premises, rather first inquire and follow the logic.

Not to mention,  how could we detect this soul?

This is going to come across as foolish at first, but you are a soul. That is the core of your being, you are an actual being (conscious entity) not a fluctuation of electrical impulses and brain activity. You brain is just a component to confine your immediate experience to a physical body.....This you should already know, but because of the conditioned mind you simply can't see it, or just are unaware of it. The soul is just a term for what you already are, so when you say how do we detect it, it is somewhat comical because you are asking me how do we detect something you already are just by existing.

If you mean how do we study or examine a soul that's much more complicated because again, the soul is just conscious awareness it has no physical base to obtain.
The soul has several layers covering it in creation, with the physical layer being the outermost layer. It is the heaviest most restrictive layer. The layers are what reduces/confines the soul to location and points of creation. When you leave the physical world you leave your physical layer but your soul is still covered and contained within more subtle embodiments, which some call the spirit body. Believe it or not the spirit body is not the same as the soul, they are distinctly something different altogether. A spirit body is the subtle body, even though it is far less dense and invisible to the naked eye it still has a viable measurable quality. The problem with that is, is who is going to measure a spirit? how are they to obtain one when they are at naked eye sight invisible? there was a guy (I forget the name) who created a device or scale that weighed the physical body when someone died to show the spirit leaves the body at death and I think he showed that a spirit weighed less than an ounce lol.

Not sure if that was even a legit experiment but nevertheless it goes to show that the spirit body is extremely light. Everything in creation occurs at frequencies of energetic levels, and so the spirit form has its own range of frequencies. Some try to measure and chase ghosts and there is  some evidence suggesting there is strange activity but all this is questionable because I don't think there is a sincere commitment or serious studies focusing on it. That's nothing I can do anything about but I can say this, spiritual activity occurs all the time, I guess people call it paranormal activity but again more that not people scoff at it.

Did you know one in three people have either seen or experienced a spirit being? that's pretty amazing statistics if you were to take it open-mindedly. They have dedicated documentaries for both NDE's and ghost encounters, maybe instead of laughing at it (which I don't really blame you) at least know there is certainly documented cases and testimonials.

You're saying there isn't another plane of existence, or at least you're not using it for souls, but then there should be some physical basis for souls, plasma, wavelength, etc, etc, can we detect them? I would say no.

There are several planes of existence (did you look up subtle body?).....this is where creation gets real interesting. Obviously when people leave the physical body they are in a transcendent plane of existence. Not only is there an afterlife there are multiverses. God created our world in layers, and these layers (planes) correlate with each layer that makes up the covering of the soul. This gives the soul virtually endless places to have experiences. As you leave one layer, you are present within the next plane. 
The soul itself though exists independent of location or embodiment, at that point you are in the full state and full form with God. The soul comes right out of the Godhead, the soul is then encapsulated in layers to make it distinct from that full state. But God makes these layers of planes for the soul to experience life through creation, the universes.
I believe that each layer that covers the soul could be detected if you actually had the equipment, then of course a spirit to measure lol. Since the spirit bodies is still made up of atoms they can be measured. However when talking about the soul itself, you're talking about nothing but conscious activity.
At that point we're only going to be able to measure energetic movement, this is where quantum mechanics has an advantage, because they are beginning to evaluate base layers of existence. But this would be everywhere not just one location, you would find energetic activity in all places at all times. Not knowing though that this energetic activity co-exists with awareness. This awareness is what we call God.

#93
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@Theweakeredge
Also, Karma? That's another new topic, what proves Karma?

You wouldn't really know about Karma unless you are familiar with spiritual practices and principles. I think most people know about the basic meaning of Karma, Jesus calls it sowing and reaping. There are universal laws that religious sources have different names for, just like there are different languages for different cultures. One culture may observe the same principle another culture observes but have a different term for it. It's basically a cause and effect law.
In creation you have natural laws as well as moral spiritual laws. The universe is governed by both systems, only with spiritual laws it's not as easy to simply detect or quantify unless you begin to participate and work within these systems of laws. You may reap the consequences of them, but you may never know it because your attention was never on it.

Again you go back to the word "proves", I'm not sure how I could prove something like that for you. It's more of an observation, but one you would have to be aware of and intuitive of, perhaps discerning of. The thing about Karma though is it is not limited to any single lifetime, and yet could manifest immediately. This of course makes people wonder how anyone could get away with very bad things and seemingly have no consequence. However as I said the laws of cause and effect have no time frame to work within, and the more a person becomes sensitive to it the faster the law comes back around. This is so both the awareness of an individual and the process of learning through mistakes reach homeostasis. Apart from that, a soul may never see the consequence of their action until another lifetime, and that's because their future experiences are tailored to the actions they committed. What you do now, determines what you will experience later.

What determines who gets what Karma?

Our own actions determine our own Karma.

Why is Karma fairer to some and not to others?

That's not for you to see or decide, because again you may never see a persons Karma in one lifetime so you have no real knowledge of it other than your own experience. Karma is not limited to this one life, it certainly relates to future occurrences, and may be reflected in a persons next embodiment. In other words, it's never unfair, it always is balanced in accordance with what a person does. Because of this, you can never judge it with just your own eyes thinking you see the whole picture. This is why you must only judge yourself and watch your own actions, not judging the lives of others or focusing on other souls Karma.
That's actually the point though, if you see something what you believe is unfair, we create own own Karma. How then could you call anything unfair? and by what measurement or knowledge could you judge that? it's always best to judge your own Karma not others, because we have limited knowing.

Is Karma operating on another plane of existence or does it also have some sort of physical presence we can detect?

It's a universal law that operates at all levels and places of creation. Can we detect it? it's not a thing....it's a consequence.
Karma-
action, seen as bringing upon oneself inevitable results, good or bad, either in this life or in a reincarnation:
karma in the present affects one's future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives
the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence
such a force considered as affecting the events of one's life
it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths.


#94
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@Theweakeredge
Mind and emotions are just the physicals, again, it's presumptuous to assume otherwise

We agree here, where did you get the impression otherwise? however the soul itself is distinct from the mind and emotions, it is the observer of both. And the soul is not physical.

but once more granting the soul. Why is it so dependent on the body to drive it?

Without a physical body the soul cannot interact within the physical world. It uses the physical body and senses to have a physical experience, not a conscious experience. Bodies play no role in the conscious awareness of a person, other than as a vehicle for that soul. The body does not drive the soul, the soul drives the body. Only one is conscious, the body is inanimate without a soul.

Why isn't the soul more in control if it literally the person behind the face?

The soul literally operates the physical body, much like a video game so it is in control, the body is nothing more than hardware and the world an interface. Like a video game you need a controller (body) and a simulation (world) to interact with.

Essentially you're saying that the soul is based on it's surroundings.

Not at all.

But so is the brain, so what is the difference between the two?

Again, the soul is the conscious being behind the mask (body), the brain is simply a component that confines your soul to this physical body (it's much like an electrical panel that channels electricity through your house), your nervous system enables you to feel and touch this world ect ect...if you had no physical body you could not interact within this world, or rather you could observe it but no one could interact with you.
The brain is not an animate thing or person, it's a device, and that is the biggest difference of course.

So then let me rephrase the question, how does the soul interact with the gender spectrum? which the answer seems to be, reflect what the brain says? But that really isn't a unique or interesting interaction. Does it just copy the brain but less effectively? How does the soul uniquely interact with the gender identity, if it doesn't interact with one's gender identity uniquely from the brain, then how do you know a soul even interacts with gender identity?

I don't know that the soul interacts with gender identity more than they just choose, or are influenced by external factors, or maybe I don't understand what you're asking.
If a person is unaware they are soul, they basically interact with superficial factors, they are subject to them because they have no other way to see beyond that. If a persons experience is primarily through the brain and their immediate perceptions, then their perspective will also reflect that.
Most transgenders are probably not spiritual thinkers (making a blanket assertion, which is most likely due to religious thugs), so they struggle more with psychological conditions. And that's mainly because of societal pressures and conditioning. And we know there is a lot of confusion and emotional baggage about the whole thing, and that's because the core of the issue (as I've been pointing out) has not been fully understood. There's a lot of freedom in what I'm saying here. Unfortunately our world is not prepared for this at this time and even the religious don't know what the hell is going on.
But it's like this....the soul gains its own unique perspective through it's own experience and its own progression and often times it is disengaged from its physical body. This is part of the game though, the game is sooo real it's almost impossible not to be influenced by it. You have to get outside the brain, mind and emotions to really see clearly and this takes practice, you have to know how the mind and emotions work and how to simply observe them rather than follow them.
This is why we look to God as the better, more perfect Source because God is unaffected by what we are affected by. God sees the whole of what is happening while we are stuck in a narrow point of view.
All I'm really trying to point out is why such phenomenon occurs at all, or why a person could have unattached feelings and interests that seemingly conflict with what they were born as. And this is due to the fact that really the soul and body are distinctly two separate things.


#95
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@Theweakeredge
Okay.... but that wasn't my question (the last part), my question was why, to which you responded essentially because the soul wanted to. But earlier you said the soul started as a blank slate? So why did it gravitate towards one then? Because it interested them? That seems kind of like a weak basis for someone's gender identity to be determined. Especially whenever a god was the reason we assume the soul is there.

The soul does leave the Godhead as a seed, to essentially become whatever it wants. The catch though, is that the choice is usually governed by its own perceptions, and perceptions are governed by the experiences it has. So the answer here is not complex, why it gravitated to one sort of attribute or expression is unknown to me. All I know is that the soul can express gender, being masculine or feminine or a mixture of both. Perhaps the Creator imparted some expression in that seed, I think it's more that the soul is reacting with its own encounters in creation and becoming anything it wants in the moment (you seen the movie Frankenstein right lol?). The dynamics of this are pretty involved but the reasoning behind it simple. The souls potential encounters are as vast as creation, and there are so many factors involved in the decisions it makes.... and you never really know how many experiences you've had unless you reach the Akashic Records.
And again I'd like to point out, that gender identity is just a superficial thing, only in duality does it have any real meaning. In God, a Singular Reality, duality does not exist, contrast does not exist....male or female does not exist. Anything that is influenced by duality, the mind, emotions or the body is not what the soul truly is anyways. The soul exists as one observing such things, whether controlled by them or not.

Why does it have natural attributes? A couple of quiotes up you said that the soul may gravitate towards certain attributes, but why? Is it just the random will of the soul? Is there any real reason at all? I'm really curious as I have no real idea about what these souls really are or what attributes they have besides a few basic ones we've discussed.

The soul is simply you, and you know exactly what that is because you are IT. You are first a conscious being, the bodies you inhabit are just vehicles, your soul is observing through those vehicles.
Let me see if I can't paint a clearer picture here. When God creates a soul, God is essentially reducing Itself within an encapsulation, that soul comes into creation like a baby coming out of the womb it really has no idea what or where it is. You are an expression of God, you are both free as well as a created being. A lot of what you are is simply random will like you asked, this is what makes it interesting for God, you're basically a co-creator...not a puppet....you become whatever you want. It is unknown to me the specifics of why you became what you are, all I am sure I know is that you are free to choose it. What influences your choices are yours to know, not mine. All I can answer for is myself.
You may feel more drawn to a masculine type of attribute, maybe a feminine one, maybe both...it's whatever means you express your creativity better with.

So essentially - because god said so? That isn't really a very compelling answer.

Lol then why do you think creators make things? because somebody else said so? lol come on, the answer was simple because the answer is obvious. God creates what God wants to and how God wants to do it. There is no real deep answer....creation is what it is because the Creator wanted it that way. That's the nature of created things, artists, sculptors....they create what they want though their own creative expressions.

If this god wanted to maximize a process or even make the experience better, then having our sexual pleasure and reproduction entirely separate would have been her best bet. It just doesn't make sense why any intelligent god would do it as she did.

Well I guess you're entitled to you opinion here, not much to argue I suppose.

I meant the end of the soul, it is seemingly arbitrarily selecting its next soul, gathering characteristics and such. Would that mean that the more bodies a soul has inhabited the more aspects the body would attain from the soul? Wouldn't that mean that transgender people would become less and less apparent, even though the opposite has happened? In regards to the unstable thing, it makes perfect sense, it is slowly gathering "things" just like an atom collecting electrons, either the decay would outrun it, destroying it, or it would achieve balance.

I'm not fully following this much, maybe I'm tired lol, what I said was pretty clear and I don't see any real problem with it . When you leave the Godhead as a seed, you're basically a collection of experiences and those experiences stay within your conscious field and make up who you are. As you choose positive and negative intentions and actions you create your future experiences, your choices are your teacher. A soul can become trapped in these lower worlds such as this physical world if they fail to rise above the carnal influence and deceptions and they begin a cycle of cause and effect. These cycles become cyclical, and their trials and tribulations become repetitive. Once the soul learns it is allowed to advance in creation. If you watch carefully you can see your own cycles of behaviors and occurrences. 
If you were a male in a previous life and abused women and looked down on them, you very well could have to come back and take on a woman's body and possibly be in a situation where you are domineered. This is to break up a negative pattern within your consciousness, so that you gain a new perspective of life and hopefully improve your output thus improving your future.
This applies to everyone and all experiences, not everyone is bad and not everyone is good, some right in between but you are sum of all your experiences. But your soul is never destroyed, that can  never happen no matter what happens to your bodies. Every time your current body is destroyed you simple move on. You come back here or you move on to another part of creation where your creativity is needed, depending on your actions of course. The more positive you do the more freedom you get.

Would that mean that the more bodies a soul has inhabited the more aspects the body would attain from the soul?

This doesn't make much sense to me, could you rephrase it? the physical body doesn't attain anything from the soul, that refers to simply genetics. It's just an avatar if you will. 

Wouldn't that mean that transgender people would become less and less apparent, even though the opposite has happened?

I think the more experiences one has had the less attached they feel to what they were born as, which is why we see transgenders, being transgender would become more apparent not less. They would feel detached in a way, but this is in there conscious awareness, which doesn't always play out in such ways. But as I said, a soul could have felt more connected to their previous role, and they may not even know they had a previous role. They just know they have a male body yet have feminine attributes, or wish they had a female body. 



I'm not necessarily trying to disagree with or prove you wrong, I just want things that make logical sense is all.

Of course, that's what I do best! I'll elaborate on anything here, but I'm trying to keep it as tight as I can.