How do we know we are believing the right god?

Author: Intelligence_06

Posts

Total: 24
Topic's author
#1
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
First, there will never be ultimate proof of whether God exists or not. The argument for God is powered on faith, and even then, you could not say that your god is the right one. Now we have a couple of religions, each one saying that their god is the correct one, so to speak: Whatever I believe, it becomes the correct one? How to prove it?

If we are believing in the wrong God, then we are just making him madder and madder each day. 

I want the religious to prove why their god is correct.
#2
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
If one believes that there is only one God, then how can the one we believe in be the wrong one?
#3
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@rosends
If one believes that there is only one God, then how can the one we believe in be the wrong one?
Well if you believe in the Yahweh for example but the one true god were actually Vishnu or Nabozo or Voltron. It is easy to believe in the wrong thing. There is also the possibility (not mentioned by the op) that no god(s) whatever actually exist.

In the end the difference between no god and a god we cannot demonstrate adequately is indistinguishable.

Topic's author
#4
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@secularmerlin
Yeah, if The world is really atheist, then every single god we believe is the wrong one.
#5
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@secularmerlin
If I believe in a single, infinite monotheistic God then his name is (in a sense) unimportant. There can't be a "wrong" one if there is only room for one. If the entire underlying monotheism is inaccurate and the "right" God is one within a polytheistic system then I'm OK being wrong because the idea of a polytheistic system doesn't make much sense to me.
#6
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@rosends
Based on previous conversations with you, the reason you are confused here is that you personally see religion as superficial tradition that one is raised into and has no right to question because it's nothing to do with 'truth', only family tradition.

The general member of a debating website, such as this, is not as 'normal' as you (yes, you are actually more normal outside of this website) and sees the question of which God is the real deity in charge of reality as a truly complex puzzle worthy of solving, not simply setting aside as irrelevant. They also see 'religion' as indeed something to which, if they would adhere, they'd be devout and reverent towards the theology of (not just the traditions of), taking it as true not simply convenient to conform to based on upbringing. These people are asking which God is the real one because they care which deity, identified by his/her/their set of morals as well as overall persona(lity) is the one that actually runs this reality. Conversely, you couldn't care less about that (if I am right about you that is) and think religion is solely about the songs, events, art so on and so forth.
#7
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@RationalMadman
You have me all wrong. But that's OK.

Just to help you out, I'm an Orthodox Jewish rabbi. I have a slightly different take on God and religion from what you ascribe to me.
#8
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@rosends
Then you were dishonest in that interview thing I did, or you've changed your outlook.

If you're Orthodox, you think your religion's God is the real one. A Rabbi cannot simply sit there and say 'but it's the same as all monotheistic gods'. Not exactly, it's just that the mainstream religions that are monotheistic all say they are Abrahamic even though they all three actually say the others are wrong.

For instance, let's take pork. The Abrahamic God irrationally outlaws eating pork... A god-made creature fit for human consumption is ruled out because it's 'dirty and lazy'... A pig is hardly more Satanic than a cow or hen, it's just an irrational claim. As for fasting, when is the right time to fast and the reason to do so? In Islam it's done in order to empathis with the poor (which doesn't make sense as Islamic fasting involves stuffing one's face prior to dawn and just after dusk which is very terrible for digestion and not the way poor people eat anyway). In Judaism, the fasting is often done allowing liquids to be consumed during it and the focus is more on self-discipline.

There are also Pagans who have a monotheistic theory of reality, they aren't all polytheists.
#9
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@RationalMadman
"Then you were dishonest in that interview thing I did, or you've changed your outlook."

Neither happens to be the case.

"If you're Orthodox, you think your religion's God is the real one. A Rabbi cannot simply sit there and say 'but it's the same as all monotheistic gods'. Not exactly, it's just that the mainstream religions that are monotheistic all say they are Abrahamic even though they all three actually say the others are wrong."

Actually, if I'm orthodox, i say that there is only one possible monotheistic God so none is the same as any other because there can be only one. And Judaism doesn't say that other religions are wrong.

"A god-made creature fit for human consumption is ruled out because it's 'dirty and lazy'."

Who called it that? Not the biblical text. Not Orthodox Jews. 

"A pig is hardly more Satanic than a cow or hen"

Who said it was? Making a counter claim to a claim not in evidence isn't useful.

"In Judaism, the fasting is often done allowing liquids to be consumed during it and the focus is more on self-discipline."

No. In Judaism, there is no fast that allows drinking. The minor fasts allow certain actions (washing, wearing leather, sex) that the 2 major fasts don't allow, but drinking is not allowed.

Before you decide what I might think, you would do better to get a handle on what you are claiming.
#10
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@rosends
You claim there is only one god in your religion, there are other sects of your religion as well as other religions that have a monotheistic god that isn't your god. Why are you confused at this?

#11
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@RationalMadman
"You claim there is only one god in your religion, there are other sects of your religion as well as other religions that have a monotheistic god that isn't your god. Why are you confused at this?"

No, I claim that there is only one God. Other religions that recognize a monotheistic God (assuming that the idea of that God correlates to the idea of God in Judaism) are worshiping the same God. Why are you confused at this? Is it because there is a distinction between an idea of God and a God figure? Is this something you aren't familiar with?

Just let me know. And also, if you want to know anything about Judaism, feel free to ask before you assert more claims about it that are laughably false.

#12
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@rosends
If I believe in a single, infinite monotheistic God then his name is (in a sense) unimportant. There can't be a "wrong" one if there is only room for one. If the entire underlying monotheism is inaccurate and the "right" God is one within a polytheistic system then I'm OK being wrong because the idea of a polytheistic system doesn't make much sense to me.
Of you believe in a being with particular attributes (say omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and omnibenevolence) but the one true god lacks ine or more of these attributes then you are correct what we call this being is unimportant to whether or not you are correct. Also why is polytheism less sensible than any other flavor of theism? Some things require multiple causes. Fire requires heat, fuel and oxygen. If any of the three is insufficient then you get no fire. Perhaps it takes matter, anti matter and at least twelve gods to make a universe. 

I respect you for rarely overstating your position by the way. You strike me as very sensible for the most part.
#13
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@secularmerlin
Of you believe in a being with particular attributes (say omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and omnibenevolence) but the one true god lacks ine or more of these attributes then you are correct what we call this being is unimportant to whether or not you are correct. Also why is polytheism less sensible than any other flavor of theism? Some things require multiple causes. Fire requires heat, fuel and oxygen. If any of the three is insufficient then you get no fire. Perhaps it takes matter, anti matter and at least twelve gods to make a universe. 

I respect you for rarely overstating your position by the way. You strike me as very sensible for the most part.
If God lacks one of these attributes, doesn't that open the door for some other God which has that quality? If my definition of God is "infinite" (a non-sensical definition, I understand, but for the sake of argument, let's work with it) then it can't, by that definition, leave room for any other idea.

In that system, where God is the "all" there can't be room for other Gods, so a polytheistic system doesn't fit, at least not to me. My theology doesn't have a universe created by committee. Could you have a system more like the Greco-Roman one (with which I am familiar only by reading myths and Percy Jackson books) in which you have a series of gods (small g), each responsible for a different aspect? Maybe, but I see that system as reversed engineered to reflect the aspirations of individuals (the hunter looks for the ultimate hunter, the farmer, for the source of bounty). In a monotheistic system, if you want to say that man created the god-idea, then man invented a singular source to be the ultimate of ALL things in one, so those two visions of god's position are not reconcilable. But I digress.

I try to speak locally, and look at statements for what they say, and keep my own ideas out of it, but I appreciate the kind words. I am rarely called sensible, but that's probably because I am married and the father of daughters.
#14
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Intelligence_06
First, there will never be ultimate proof of whether God exists or not.

Not because the evidence is not there, but because of the nature of God being immaterial (spiritual). Since the very nature of God eludes the immediate physical sense perceptions it becomes very hard to prove, if not impossible to prove collectively in a way where anyone could demonstrate it. 
Spirituality is much more like radio waves and varying levels of frequencies of observations, where you have to "change your channel" or adjust your channel to pick up on other rates or ranges of frequencies. This is achieved through the practices of spirituality, so this claim is only true at one level of experience but not all levels of experience. So it may be true for you at this time in your life, but not true for everyone. 

The argument for God is powered on faith

If your using the term faith as a means to believe in things with no reason or evidence no such thing exists (it's a misconception). The argument for a Creator is strong and upheld by good reasoning and commonsense. Faith was never meant as a vehicle to accept things with no reason, faith is trust and confidence and both of those things require evidence and good reason. I would go so far as to say faith is more an action than a belief. 

and even then, you could not say that your god is the right one. Now we have a couple of religions, each one saying that their god is the correct one, so to speak: Whatever I believe, it becomes the correct one? How to prove it?

You first have to start with the notion that a Creator most likely exists with good reason, even better use your mind and the evidence to be confident that God most certainly exists. What religion and which claims are irrelevant. Don't start azz backwards, first be confident God exists and then research religion only to gain insights about that reality. You don't even have to believe this one or that one to believe a Creator exists that is nonsensical. There are good insights in many sources of religion but not everything is always true. Even when considering religious sources you never abandon good sense (commonsense). You believe in God first because of good reason and sound logic, then you can study religion as you develop your love and admiration for God and decide what is true and accurate. 

If we are believing in the wrong God, then we are just making him madder and madder each day. 

If you believe in God how can it ever be the wrong one lol???

I want the religious to prove why their god is correct.

You want a way to ignore your own participation is what it sounds like. 

#15
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@Intelligence_06
First, there will never be ultimate proof of whether God exists or not. The argument for God is powered on faith, and even then, you could not say that your god is the right one. Now we have a couple of religions, each one saying that their god is the correct one, so to speak: Whatever I believe, it becomes the correct one? How to prove it?

If we are believing in the wrong God, then we are just making him madder and madder each day. 


I want the religious to prove why their god is correct.
If you're referring to considering gods from the different major religions, one strong thing to consider is they don't all make the same claim about God. One major religion makes no reference to a god at all (Buddhism). Islam makes no claim of any personal relationship with God (Allah). Unlike Christianity, It's basically believing the words (or revelation) from a specific prophet, unlike Christianity where the revelation comes directly from God. So if what the specific teaching of each religion should be considered, then the god(s) of most major religions can be eliminated, if we're to base this on personal encounter with the creator. And this is probably why you won't get many supporters of Vishna in this thread.

If you're talking about random (or unknown) gods like Zyzx1138 (fictitious), then we would might question why Zysz1138 is so unknown. Zyzx1138 wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on in terms of being angry about being rejected as the one true god.

How does a Christian know Jesus is the right God?

I would say it's a simple as you knowing who your parents are.

How do you know your parents aren't actually your best friend in school's parents? How do you know you didn't get the identity of your parents wrong?




#16
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@rosends



.
rosends,

YOUR REVEALING AND STEPPING IN POO QUOTE: "If one believes that there is only one God, then how can the one we believe in be the wrong one?"

Your inept statement is answered by simply stating  your serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God in your Torah is the SAME God that is within the JUDEO-Christian Bible Old and New Testament, even though your Yahweh God contradicts the Christian's New Testament God.  Therefore, the "One God" that you and the pseudo-christians believe in is an unnerving paradox, therefore, do you see how embarrassing your statement has become? Yes?  :(

Tell the membership, are you upset that the Christian Religion has literally STOLEN your serial killing Hebrew God Yahweh, and made Him into the Christian God, aka, the New Testament?  Since you stated there is only ONE God, that now is the Christian God, then you are totally without a God and therefore wasting your time on a non-existent leader of your faith that you used to have!  Remember, only one God, and He went to the Christians. Priceless facts, huh?

WAIT! Do not fret, and this is because in chronological order, you can laugh at the pseudo-christians because this Hebrew ONE GOD concept of Yahweh left the Christians and turned into the Muslim God of Islam name Allah! HOLY COW BATMAN!  I know I am preaching to the choir, and this is because all said concepts of this ONE GOD scenario are through Abraham in the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faith. Whoops.  Your Hebrew one God concept had 3 different names since leaving you, Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah, which only helps to show this God's validity, *cough*  :)

Rosends, for your sake,  respond to this post and don't run away from it like the pseudo-christians would do, because if you do RUN AWAY, it shows that you cannot address this post and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, which becomes a dark cloud over your Jewish faith. You don't want that do you? NO, I didn't think so.  Looking forward to our conversation. 


.
#17
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Intelligence_06


. Intelligence_06,

Remember when Homer Simpson addressed your main topic?





.
#18
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,432
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Intelligence_06
First, there will never be ultimate proof of whether God exists or not.
Wow, we just start immediately with assumptions don't we? No need for pretense - just throw out the premises and then move on from there. You got to love it when people are convinced of something before they even consider it. 

The argument for God is powered on faith, and even then, you could not say that your god is the right one.
LOL @ you.  Sorry, you are wrong there.  There is no argument for God.  What an amazing thing to assume.   Faith means trust.  That is what Christians mean when they talk about faith.  So the notion that there is an argument for God powered on trust - makes literally no sense.  As for saying that my God is the right one. That is not difficult at all. My God is God. If I had to choose a god, then I would not choose the god of the Bible.  In fact, if I got to choose a god, it would be one that looks and sounds a lot like me.  But I don't get to choose God.  Not the true and real God.  And yet, here I am, eager and willing servant of God.  How did this happen? Not through my parents. Not through my church. Not through some strange experience. My parents are not in sync with their religious positions. One is an atheist and one is from a dissenting congregation.  Both would lean towards free-will and both would consider the church I attend now as dangerous and liberal and perhaps even non-Christian.  The church I attended with my mother would be in accord with my mum.  My wife on the other hand was part of the Pentecostal and charismatic movement - big believers in experience and warm fuzzy feelings, speaking in tongues etc.  They too would consider me - as one out of the box. 

I did not choose my religion. Nor my God. And incidentally this is what Christianity teaches.  SecularMerlin talks of determinism in a secular sense. Almost a fatalistic manner. He fails to realise the connect he has with the Islam faith in that position. Nevertheless, I do not believe in a fatalistic God.  I have no issues saying that GOD is correct. While you might desire deep down that this no one can say their God is true - it ironically is based on the notion that truth cannot be known truly.  Which when you think about it is a self contradictory statement. How can you say "no one can their God is true" unless firstly you know something about God which you don't claim and secondly, unless you have some sort of measure of ABSOLUTE truth which you don't claim.  Ironically, your statement logically produces some alarming truths for you. But I won't spoil this for you. Get your logic book out and figure it out for yourself. 

Now we have a couple of religions, each one saying that their god is the correct one, so to speak: Whatever I believe, it becomes the correct one? How to prove it?
With great respect, what does that even mean? Every person thinks whatever they think is correct. EVERYONE does. If they did not think that what they thought was correct, then they would think something else.  IPSO FACTO.  You think you are correct. I think I am correct. The Brother thinks he is correct. Stephen thinks he is correct. Excuse me if I just think this does not need to be said.  Of course every religion which believes in God or indeed who does not believe in God - thinks that their picture is correct. Please get on with what you are trying to articulate.  I really think there is no need to prove God exists. He just is.  Everywhere I look I see evidence for God's existence. Whether it is in the universe around us, whether it is the state of evil in the world, whether it is the good that occurs, whether it is the reliability of science, or mathematics, or whether it is in laws, or philosophy, or medicine, or other religions - in the heart of humanity - everything is always revealing the reality of God.  Even death does.  


If we are believing in the wrong God, then we are just making him madder and madder each day. 
Why? Is God a human with human feelings that they can increase over time? What sort of God, don't you believe in? Is God really that fickle that he would lose a sense of control when people do the wrong thing? Again, what a strange god you don't believe in. If it helps, I don't believe in that one either.  

I want the religious to prove why their god is correct.
No you don't.  That is untrue.  If this was the case - then you have contradicted your very first statement and assumption about faith.  See, you don't want truth or proof. You need something else - according to your own assumptions.  You want God or a religion to give you faith.  Religions don't give faith. God does. but that is a different matter. 

So either you go back and revisit your first assumption above  or you ask for proof. You cannot have it both ways.  I say neither are particularly helpful.  

#19
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@rosends
@RoderickSpode
@Intelligence_06
It is very simple.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

This God not only clearly exists, to all except those who have been deluded into embracing nihilism, but there can not be any "god" greater. I would even go so far as to say that in comparison, none of these "gods" can even properly be called so at all.

There is only One True God. 



#20
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
As Rosends says, there is no room for any other God.
#21
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Mopac
@rosends



.
Mopac,

YOUR OVER THE TOP RELIGIOUS QUOTE: "As Rosends says, there is no room for any other God."

Your Christian God IS NOT the same God as Rosend's traditional Hebrew God, HELLO, BIBLE FOOL!  Rosey's serial killing Yahweh God of his Hebrew faith through the Torah and other Hebrew writings, says that Jesus was NEVER the son of god, or a god altogether, and there was no virgin birth, therefore how can it be the same God of Christianity, understood? Therefore, when you erroneously postulate that there is no room for any other God, you are blatantly NOT talking about Rosends God, get it, anybody home today?  

Your continued biblical ignorance, as with Tradesecrets, aka, He/She, is always without bounds at the expense of your total embarrassment! Whats new in this respect? Absolutely NOTHING!


NEXT?


.
#22
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
You seem to be mistaking the God figure with the idea of God. If the idea of God is that God is infinite, perfect and filling up the universe as a unique idea then there can;t be more than one. If the particular iteration conflicts with the iteration of that same idea as understood by another religion then you have 2 claims about a singular concept. The original post's question would then be better framed "how do we know that our version of God is the right one" and not about the "right God" as if there is more than one God concept.

If I am stranded on an island with you and there is one house, and someone asks "what color is the house" and I say "blue" and you say "green" then there is still only one house but one of us misunderstands or misperceives that iteration of "house." It is silly to ask "how do you know you are talking about the 'right house'?" when there is only one house to talk about.

Feel free to foam at the mouth about this distinction. I can give you the name of the professor from whom I learned it, many years ago and you can contact him if you would like.
#23
Juice
Juice's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 63
0
0
5
Juice's avatar
Juice
0
0
5
#24
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@rosends
@BrotherDThomas
The Trinity is simply an acknowledgement that God is one with his Word and Spirit.

God is present in creation through His Word and Spirit.

If you look at traditional Orthodox Christian commentaries on the scriptures that we share in common with the Jews, our understanding of these things is heavily typological. 

In the hypostasis of The Son, that is Christ, we say there are two natures. Divine and Human. Scripture is as the Human nature of Christ that gives witnesss to the Divine nature. When Truth condescended itself into created form for the sake of mankind, it took the form of scripture. Scripture is as an image of the divine. We say that Christ Jesus is the most perfect image of God the father. 

We would say that the spirit of what is communicated through the scriptures is expressed in our faith. What is that spirit? The Spirit of Truth. 

We say The Spirit of Truth, or The Holy Spirit spoke by the prophets.

Really, in so many ways, we honor the Jews above all people. Wheras the Muslims would destroy the Jewish scriptures calling them corrupt, and the Hindus would trivialize the Jews, not seeing their special place in history. The materialists find the Jews an offense, as threat to their idolatries.

Jewish scripture points to the same God, otherwise we would not honor it as scripture. The Ultimate Reality is God, and while the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as The Christ, we would say this has more to do with them not recognizing who Jesus is rather than to say they have a different God.

Of course, at the time of Christ, Jewish faith was moreso in the external forms and practices of religion. It lost the intention of the religion, or as we would say, made the law into God rather than seeing the law as something to correct the heart in preparation to see God(in the sense that Moses saw God's "back parts", not that God can be known in essence). 

Jewish religion has changed a lot since those days. Truthfully, and I am no expert in modern Judaism, but from whay I do know we seem to be a great deal closer in spirit now than we were back then.

I can only speak of Orthodox Christianity though. Protestants and Roman Catholics would confuse the issue. We don't share the same faith.