Matthew 27:52-53

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 74
Topic's author
#1
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2


?
Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

 Jesus dies and then this happened

52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

 What does this actually mean?

#2
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Stephen
Two of the things that happened at the moment of Christ's death were 
  • Many good souls who were trapped in their tombs because of original sin were suddenly purified by Christ's sacrifice and granted access to heaven
  • a big earthquake
    • Matthew is reporting the presence of many  newly resurrected, newly saved but not yet ascended souls wandering through Jerusalem
A survey of ancient literature finds that stories of resurrections are frequently associated with stories of earthquakes.
  • many people then as now, get buried in rubble of earthquakes for days or weeks, when they are found or free themselves, miraculous claim abound
    • Cities like Jerusalem were mostly 2 and 3 story buildings built of mud bricks.   A big earthquake would tear apart nearly every house and leave an ocean of bricks and buried residents.  The numbers of people buried and trapped would be astonishing.  People who could not find their home or families might be separated for weeks.  After a big earthquake, there would be large numbers of people who were assumed dead who returned days, weeks, even years later.  So earthquakes become associated with resurrections.
    • Also, many people were buried fairly shallow in those days, under only two or three feet of sand, often.  Any big earthquake would shake out many, many dead bodies from years of prior burials.
  • I think Matthew is depicting the mass salvation of so many as a physical reality and cataclysm  for the residents of Jerusalem, cracking open  the earth and waking the dead.

#3
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

 Jesus dies and then this happened

52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

 What does this actually mean?
One reason is to depict that the killing of the messiah was an unnatural event.  A crazy and ridiculous event. An even that ought not to have happened in a normal and perfect world.  The picture of graves opening and people walking around clearly pictures an absurdity. A crazy and ridiculous event. So when the people of this earth intentionally killed their messiah - the universe went crazy around them. So one reason is that this is poetically picturing the intentional killing of the messiah as absurd - which set the world off for a moment in similar fashion. 
Topic's author
#4
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

 Jesus dies and then this happened

52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

 What does this actually mean?
One reason is to depict that the killing of the messiah was an unnatural event.

 So was there earthquakes and ripping of temple curtains and dead bodies entering the city when any of the other 14  "messiah's"  before Jesus died?


One reason is to depict that the killing of the messiah was an unnatural event.  A crazy and ridiculous event.[ .............]The picture of graves opening and people walking around clearly pictures an absurdity. A crazy and ridiculous event. So when the people of this earth intentionally killed their messiah - the universe went crazy around them. So one reason is that this is poetically picturing the intentional killing of the messiah as absurd - which set the world off for a moment in similar fashion. 

I refer you to your own words here last sentence. Something about "assumption" #20


 A crazy and ridiculous event.

 Yes. It was. And just when we thought we had left behind us  the vile atrocities of  perpetual rape and perpetual killing in the Old Testament ,too.  We have again in the New Testament a  terrible and murderous conspiracy to rid the world of who some believed to be the true heir to the throne of Jerusalem; Jesus king of the Jews, the (failed) Jewish messiah , one of many failed messiahs who it is said had been sent to free the Jews from the Roman yoke.

But then to others he was a religiopolitical agitator accused of , and found guilty of ,  among  other charges,  Lèse-majesté. 



The picture of graves opening and people walking around clearly pictures an absurdity.
It does!  I agree.   And maybe this is STILL why I am  not quite getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.


A crazy and ridiculous event.

So ridiculous it may not be true? 



So when the people of this earth intentionally killed their messiah - the universe went crazy around them.
 Not quite.  There was it is said  some curtain ripping and an earthquake. And didn't the sky go dark for a while?  Hardly "universal".


I do have to say though, that all these bodies "sleeping" then suddenly leaving their tombs en masse does,  as you correctly say  appear to be " A crazy and ridiculous event" On the surface maybe, but below it may  actually have meant something else entirely?

And to me these dead rising en masse  certainly takes the shine off Jesus coming alive after being dead considering this type of event can be seen to be a regular occurrence and narrated in such a matter of fact way. 








#5
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

 Jesus dies and then this happened

52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

 What does this actually mean?
One reason is to depict that the killing of the messiah was an unnatural event.

 So was there earthquakes and ripping of temple curtains and dead bodies entering the city when any of the other 14  "messiah's"  before Jesus died?
Well the bible does not say there were any other messiahs.  Not in the same way Jesus is depicted. 

One reason is to depict that the killing of the messiah was an unnatural event.  A crazy and ridiculous event.[ .............]The picture of graves opening and people walking around clearly pictures an absurdity. A crazy and ridiculous event. So when the people of this earth intentionally killed their messiah - the universe went crazy around them. So one reason is that this is poetically picturing the intentional killing of the messiah as absurd - which set the world off for a moment in similar fashion. 

I refer you to your own words here last sentence. Something about "assumption" #20
You ask questions and then you simply consider any response an assumption. I never said it was the correct answer. I said it was one reason why.  I actually have a different answer. 

 A crazy and ridiculous event.

 Yes. It was. And just when we thought we had left behind us  the vile atrocities of  perpetual rape and perpetual killing in the Old Testament ,too.  We have again in the New Testament a  terrible and murderous conspiracy to rid the world of who some believed to be the true heir to the throne of Jerusalem; Jesus king of the Jews, the (failed) Jewish messiah , one of many failed messiahs who it is said had been sent to free the Jews from the Roman yoke.

But then to others he was a religiopolitical agitator accused of , and found guilty of ,  among  other charges,  Lèse-majesté. 

Irrelevant really to the question.  and to my response. Your commentary really is quite unhelpful.  

The picture of graves opening and people walking around clearly pictures an absurdity.
It does!  I agree.   And maybe this is STILL why I am  not quite getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.
I don't answer yes or no. I am not a witness to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer.  Simplistic answers tend to get in the road of the truth and very often distort a proper examination.  If Matthew records that it happened - then unless we can understand that it happened poetically, or perhaps, metaphorically, or perhaps spiritually, then it must have happened literally.  I would not start with the premise that we would just dismiss it.  

Are there any clues in the verses which indicate it might be other than a literal sense in the physical world? bodies of saints who have fallen asleep. Who at this time were the saints? And what does falling asleep mean? And then there is this thought - "after his resurrection".  Clearly this part is not at his death - or is it? And then it uses the term "the Holy City".  Whatever could the Holy City be? Is that Jerusalem? Or is it talking about something different? And then we have many witnesses? Who are they? 

A crazy and ridiculous event.

So ridiculous it may not be true? 

That is a long bow you are drawing - perhaps you might choose to consider its meaning before drawing such conclusions. 

So when the people of this earth intentionally killed their messiah - the universe went crazy around them.
 Not quite.  There was it is said  some curtain ripping and an earthquake. And didn't the sky go dark for a while?  Hardly "universal".
The Jewish curtain was a pretty big deal. But is significance was very symbolic.  Rocks splitting - eclipse as well all at the same time. Sounds like a perfect  storm if you ask me. 


I do have to say though, that all these bodies "sleeping" then suddenly leaving their tombs en masse does,  as you correctly say  appear to be " A crazy and ridiculous event" On the surface maybe, but below it may  actually have meant something else entirely?

And to me these dead rising en masse  certainly takes the shine off Jesus coming alive after being dead considering this type of event can be seen to be a regular occurrence and narrated in such a matter of fact way. 
People coming to life - because Jesus has died - actually has wonderful encouragement for me and believers.  It was after all, the point of his death and resurrection from the believer's point of view.  Since Matthew is picturing their resurrection as it were as part of the entire scene here - it was not drawing an inference that it was normal that people rise from the dead - except in Jesus and because of Jesus. 
Topic's author
#6
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
People coming to life - because Jesus has died - actually has wonderful encouragement for me and believers. 


 And I am genuinely pleased for you.




It was after all, the point of his death and resurrection from the believer's point of view.

Ah, and this is what is bugging me about the verse. Try answering the question this time around .

"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.




  Since Matthew is picturing their resurrection as it were as part of the entire scene here.....
Yes he is isn't he.  He telling us about it years after the fact after picturing the whole scene in his minds eye, isn't he? It simply hasn't entered your brain that Mathew just maybe talking spiritually, has it?

#7
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
People coming to life - because Jesus has died - actually has wonderful encouragement for me and believers. 


 And I am genuinely pleased for you.

Your are welcome. 


It was after all, the point of his death and resurrection from the believer's point of view.

Ah, and this is what is bugging me about the verse. Try answering the question this time around .

"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.
LOL! I am not a witness. I am not under cross examination.  I do not have to answer yes or no. It is not a simplistic answer - even though that is what you desire. 

Part of the answer is talking about exactly what happened at Jesus' death and part of that answer is talking about what happened later.  There is no particular reason to think otherwise.  The gospels never claim to be speaking in exact chronological order. They are books written prior to Gutenberg. And are meant to be read like books in those times. It is silly to try and read them as a modern person reads a modern book. Surely, even you are aware of the differences? 



  Since Matthew is picturing their resurrection as it were as part of the entire scene here.....
Yes he is isn't he.  He telling us about it years after the fact after picturing the whole scene in his minds eye, isn't he? It simply hasn't entered your brain that Mathew just maybe talking spiritually, has it?
LOL! Are you serious? I said above "I actually have a different answer."https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4948/post-links/210134. 

I am also the one who raised we need to look at it perhaps in different ways before we decide to throw it out. Or have you CONVENIENTLY forgotten that? 

Matthew wrote the book many years after.  And this is obvious in many aspects. No one has said otherwise.  But nor does it mean anything is inaccurate. One just needs to be able to read the book in the way that he wanted us to read it.  



Topic's author
#8
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret

  Since Matthew is picturing their resurrection as it were as part of the entire scene here.....
Yes he is isn't he.  He telling us about it years after the fact after picturing the whole scene in his minds eye, isn't he? It simply hasn't entered your brain that Mathew just maybe talking spiritually, has it?
LOL! Are you serious? I said above "I actually have a different answer."https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4948/post-links/210134. 

 Your link isn't working.



I am also the one who raised we need to look at it perhaps in different ways

 No that was me . I said; 

"I do have to say though, that all these bodies "sleeping" then suddenly leaving their tombs en masse does,  as you correctly say  appear to be " A crazy and ridiculous event" On the surface maybe, but below it may  actually have meant something else entirely"? Last but one sentence.#4


"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.


I don't answer yes or no.

Why ever  not?  That is a verse from the bible isn't it?  Why can you not simply confirm that it is?  


I am not a witness to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer.  
Yes you are. You are a servant of Christ. Your job is to go out into the world and " bare witness" to the gospels and the life of the Christ.  “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant ". 

here try this on>>> “You Will Be My Witnesses”: Five Truths About Witnessing From the Book of Acts.  https://davidschrock.com/2016/12/15/you-will-be-my-witnesses-five-truths-about-witnessing-from-the-book-of-acts/


to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer.  

And that is the problem isn't it?  When you are put on the backfoot you have absolutely nothing in reply.  Because you  are only taught to speak of what  you "witnessed" (which - just like the gospel writers -  in your case is absolutely nothing ).  And when it comes to simple questions, BOOOM! you hit a brick wall and are turned into a mangled mess of hypocrisy and contradictions. 

What was the point or purpose of a load  believed  "dead" people  "coming out of the graves" and marching on the city en masse?
 
What happened when they got there?

Why didn't they "rise from their tombs"  BEFORE the Christ was so viciously beaten and nailed to a cross?

Where are the gasps of shock, surprise or even fear of those alive on  seeing these long dead   rotten stinking corpses just walking into their city en masse??

Were they arrested as followers of Jesus? 

Did they ever die again?

Were they also crucified? 

Were they Killed?

Did they die again in the earthquake?

Were they re-resurrected? 



This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is why the story makes no fkn sense!  AND THIS is why it has to mean something else if it happened at all!!!!! I have told you, you are not clever at all. If you were you would be able to answer those simple questions above because they do have answers. But you cannot even bring yourself to confirm or deny if  a biblical verse is correct.  Trade secret?  The only person to claim that title that has no secrets to trade.


. One just needs to be able to read the book in the way that he wanted us to read it. 

 I see. Which is how exactly?   

Did he (Matthew) write the book for all those millions illiterate peasants of the time and in the future to be able to notice,  and know,  that when he wrote one thing,  that they should automatically know and understand that he  actually meant something else entirely? 



#9
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
I think that the use of hallucinogenic and mind altering substances was probably rife back in the day.....Seriously.

It's only latterly that we have come to understand the negative implications of substance abuse.




#10
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen

  Since Matthew is picturing their resurrection as it were as part of the entire scene here.....
Yes he is isn't he.  He telling us about it years after the fact after picturing the whole scene in his minds eye, isn't he? It simply hasn't entered your brain that Mathew just maybe talking spiritually, has it?
LOL! Are you serious? I said above "I actually have a different answer."https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4948/post-links/210134. 

 Your link isn't working.



I am also the one who raised we need to look at it perhaps in different ways

 No that was me . I said; 

"I do have to say though, that all these bodies "sleeping" then suddenly leaving their tombs en masse does,  as you correctly say  appear to be " A crazy and ridiculous event" On the surface maybe, but below it may  actually have meant something else entirely"? Last but one sentence.#4


"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.


I don't answer yes or no.

Why ever  not?  That is a verse from the bible isn't it?  Why can you not simply confirm that it is?  


I am not a witness to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer.  
Yes you are. You are a servant of Christ. Your job is to go out into the world and " bare witness" to the gospels and the life of the Christ.  “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant ". 

here try this on>>> “You Will Be My Witnesses”: Five Truths About Witnessing From the Book of Acts.  https://davidschrock.com/2016/12/15/you-will-be-my-witnesses-five-truths-about-witnessing-from-the-book-of-acts/


to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer.  

And that is the problem isn't it?  When you are put on the backfoot you have absolutely nothing in reply.  Because you  are only taught to speak of what  you "witnessed" (which - just like the gospel writers -  in your case is absolutely nothing ).  And when it comes to simple questions, BOOOM! you hit a brick wall and are turned into a mangled mess of hypocrisy and contradictions. 

What was the point or purpose of a load  believed  "dead" people  "coming out of the graves" and marching on the city en masse?
 
What happened when they got there?

Why didn't they "rise from their tombs"  BEFORE the Christ was so viciously beaten and nailed to a cross?

Where are the gasps of shock, surprise or even fear of those alive on  seeing these long dead   rotten stinking corpses just walking into their city en masse??

Were they arrested as followers of Jesus? 

Did they ever die again?

Were they also crucified? 

Were they Killed?

Did they die again in the earthquake?

Were they re-resurrected? 



This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is why the story makes no fkn sense!  AND THIS is why it has to mean something else if it happened at all!!!!! I have told you, you are not clever at all. If you were you would be able to answer those simple questions above because they do have answers. But you cannot even bring yourself to confirm or deny if  a biblical verse is correct.  Trade secret?  The only person to claim that title that has no secrets to trade.


. One just needs to be able to read the book in the way that he wanted us to read it. 

 I see. Which is how exactly?   

Did he (Matthew) write the book for all those millions illiterate peasants of the time and in the future to be able to notice,  and know,  that when he wrote one thing,  that they should automatically know and understand that he  actually meant something else entirely? 

I never said I would not answer, I just said I was not going to be led like a lawyer leads a witness. I also said I was not going to answer questions with a yes or a no. I think these questions require more complete responses.  And the fact that you detest this demonstrates that you are not interested in the truth - just your version of it.  




#11
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
I think that the use of hallucinogenic and mind altering substances was probably rife back in the day.....Seriously.

It's only latterly that we have come to understand the negative implications of substance abuse.
That would make it convenient for you. Unfortunately, for you - there is not a psychologist on this planet would was provide an opinion along the lines that these witnesses were all hallucinating. 
Topic's author
#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
I never said I would not answer,

 Saying "I don't answer yes or no"to questions is a refusal to answer questions, no matter how you want to spin it.  And I see yet again that you are turning what is a simply thread asking for clarity into a personal slanging match.  I have simply asked you to confirm or deny if the verse?

 
see here>
"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.

 You see. The question doesn't require any more than a yes or no. I just want you to confirm if or not  that this is the description given in the text. Why are you so afraid to confirm that this is EXACTLY what the text states.


I just said I was not going to be led like a lawyer leads a witness. I also said I was not going to answer questions with a yes or a no.

This is the cowardice that many Christians show, not to mention the lack of faith in their own beliefs when they cannot or won't even confirm  a verse from there own scriptures. 


I think these questions require more complete responses. 
 Some questions do. But asking you to confirm a biblical verse requires nothing more than a yes or no. You are just too cowardly to dip your toe in the water of uncertainty.



And the fact that you detest this

Fact?  What fact?  I love it when when you refuse to answer the simplest of questions. I don't detest it, princess. It simply proves what I have said about you all along. That you have been read to, and been told to what page to turn to. and have had the scriptures ' explained ` to you.  But you have never been equipped to answer probing questions concerning  these, your own, contradictory and ambiguous  scriptures. You admit to simply "passing on what you have been taught".

Here  on a thread you have deserted>> 
we I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i have received. 
Yes I gathered that. But expect to be called out on what it is that you have "received" and  are "passing on" and stop crying about it when you are. And it is apparent to me that you are simply   not questioning for yourself what it is that  you have  "received" and  are "passing on" before you have "passed it on"!#21





You desert threads when they become difficult;  another example is here  >>. #30  The Brother calls this  "; running away" , and  he may well have good reason to as well.



demonstrates that you are not interested in the truth - just your version of it.  

 No. I am  and always have been open about what I seek from these scriptures. I have always said that I believe that there is something else entirely going on beneath the surface. And a quick scroll through many of my threads attest to this.

Besides, what's to say " my version "  isn't the truth?  You would never know would you,? Because you have never read these scriptures for your self, have you?  You have had bible ' lessons' haven't you?    You have been taught how to read the bible by someone  that wants you to think exactly like them. You are or have already been cloned. You have become your  teachers errand boy, and are simply "passing on" what you have been taught to pass on without question.

 You see, the thing about these scriptures, is that they are tantalizing and not as clear cut as YOU want to believe and as your teacher wants you to believe.. They are a ancient mess. They are full of half told stories, innuendo, ambiguous statements,  codes, and secret rituals ("raising the dead")going back hundreds of thousands of years.

And didn't Paul encourage and praise those that questioned the scriptures?  I can only suppose that you received a slap instead.



#13
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
Think about it logically.

Who made all these biblical claims?...Was it ordinary everyday folk, or was it shamanic individuals.

A bloke goes up a mountain and smokes a few joints, or chews a few leaves, or has a few bevvies and has a chat with a god....Now that's plausible.

And all these witnesses....There weren't actually that many, were there?....Most witness is just repetition.
#14
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
I'm thinking it's one of many parts in the  block of scriptures that have people making pilgrimages to a certain place. 

Imagine going to A / The HOLY CITY. 
Meeting a live dead saint outside of the city is 201 to 1.
In the " holy city " it's like ,  36 to 1


 

#15
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I don't run away. I don't desert threads when they become difficult. I answer questions - but never sufficiently for you - that is quite different. I don't think you ever answer my questions - and in fact up until very recently when you made a declaration, I was of the view that you refused to answer questions because you were a coward. 

I have said I don't have answers for every question. In fact on many occasions I have said I don't know.  I have indicated at times I will speculate. And I do at time.  

But so far as I can tell - I have never run away from any question. I really don't have a need too. It is not me on trial here. Yes, sometimes I say things - or assert things which I need time to find the evidence for. On those occasions -- normally - not always - it is because you or the Brother or someone else has made some dumb assertion and I foolishly respond back with a similar retort.  

Saying I wont answer with a yes or a no is not running away. It is saying that I won't play your game. I won't be led down a particular path for you to entrap me - which is the way you do things.  For you to then say - you are running away - is therefore not only disingenuous but cowardly. Not to mention bullyish. 

Besides - I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no. Why would I not take my own advice? Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers. 

In response to your question about what happened around the time Jesus died - I did answer. It was not a yes or a no.  I answered it by responding to the text. More than you did.  I also responded by highlighting the point which is that the book is not written chronologically. I highlighted that Matthew spoke about a point after the resurrection. But you - no do not accept or even engage with these relevant points - you want a yes or no. Well Stephen, there is no yes or no answer.  This is not me running away - in fact I would submit that you are the one running away from the evidence here - and the context - and the type of language that is being employed here - because your eyes can only see one thing - and you have an agenda.  I said to you, that we should take it as being real, unless the language intimates or gives clues that we ought to take it another way. But you - no - you just try and ram home a point which has been done and dusted because the discussion has evolved since then.  

Stop playing games. If you want to assert something - do it. 
#16
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
Think about it logically.

Who made all these biblical claims?...Was it ordinary everyday folk, or was it shamanic individuals.

A bloke goes up a mountain and smokes a few joints, or chews a few leaves, or has a few bevvies and has a chat with a god....Now that's plausible.

And all these witnesses....There weren't actually that many, were there?....Most witness is just repetition.
If you seriously believe what you have just written - perhaps it is you who has been spoking a few joints. 
#17
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
Nope.....Never smoked.

Every statement I made was  logical and plausible.

A. The bible tale, typically focuses on "special"  individuals, which is a fiction or myth format that we are very familiar with. So very few specifically mentioned witnesses.

B. The use of stimulants to achieve an altered state of mind and communicate with  the spirit world is nothing new. I'm sure that back in the day such  practises would have been commonplace and highly regarded, especially in a region known for the production and use of such substances. Kat  and hashish for example are still very popular today.

Explains a lot really doesn't it?
Topic's author
#18
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret

I don't run away. I don't desert threads when they become difficult.

 I hate to remind you but I have shown two occasions where you have simply left  threads with questions unanswered. Here  #21 and here #30 . I would rather say that you deserted these threads than "run away"   but I suppose they do mean the same thing. 
And again, I see that you would much prefer to argue about things irreverent to the ACTUAL theme of the thread that simply answer questions that you should be able to answer. I can only guess where you got that diversionary tactic from.





I answer questions - but never sufficiently for you - that is quite different.

Now that is lying. I have asked for you to simply qualify a verse from the bible. You have refused three times now having yourself admitted that you won't and don't answer simple yes or no questions. 




I don't think you ever answer my questions -

 You keep saying this but have never offered an example after I have asked you to do so.


and in fact up until very recently when you made a declaration, I was of the view that you refused to answer questions because you were a coward. 

 And you are still of that view I take it . But it is false isn't it. Show me where I have refused or ignored a direct question from you.   Yes I made a declaration especially for you, saying I would answer every and all questions that are relevant to the thread. I asked you to cut out and keep .


I have said I don't have answers for every question.

 You don't have to answer anything. I will simply take it that you simply have no answer.  


In fact on many occasions I have said I don't know.  I have indicated at times I will speculate. And I do at time.  


 Not to me. And if my memory serves me correct I have only ever seen you admit to not knowing an answer to a question once, very recently. And you was thanked for your candor/honesty. But I will stand corrected if you can show me three or four times where you have admitted to knot knowing an answer to a question that I have posed you, and I will apologise too. 


But so far as I can tell - I have never run away from any question.

What do you mean "as far as you can tell"!???
You have point blank refused and said you will not answer my simple yes or no question above THREE TIMES!!!!! 


I really don't have a need too. It is not me on trial here.



Correct. Its your scriptures that are being investigated and scrutinized.


Yes, sometimes I say things - or assert things which I need time to find the evidence for . On those occasions -- normally - not always - it is because you or the Brother or someone else has made some dumb assertion and I foolishly respond back with a similar retort. 

 Well I am not sure what "dumb assertions" you are accusing me of and it would be nice for you to give me an example. But you won't.   Because, like your other accusations about me not answering your questions, you simply can't. 



Saying I wont answer with a yes or a no is not running away.

 It is. It is avoiding the question . Which in this case is a simply request for you to clarify a verse. I am not even asking you too explain it, but you won't.




I won't be led down a particular path for you to entrap me - which is the way you do things. 

 You are showing signs of paranoia. "they way I do things" is I scratch away at the surface of these contradictory and ambiguous scriptures the ask questions concerning my findings . This is called research and investigation. You just don't like it, and I don't care.






Besides - I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no.

I bet you do.  That's' is your big problem. You have ben counseled and are now doing the same to your gullible "clients"  . But again you like you, they too will not have been  armed enough to be able to explain any embarrassing and awkward questions concerning these scripture that come their way. 


Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers. 

 It is but asking for a simply qualification of a verse i.e. is it there or isn't it there in the bible is not the Nazi interrogation that you love to 


In response to your question about what happened around the time Jesus died - I did answer.

 Nope. Stop telling lies. I  simply asked is the verse correct, you gave me a sermon.?

see here>
"52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.


 You treated the question on this thread exactly the same.. I simply asked you to confirm  if was I reading a few verses correctly and you have done nothing but dance around AGAIN!!!!  HERE>>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4911-of-pigs-and-men?page=1&post_number=16

You are a coward. And by your own admission are teaching your "clients" to be cowards also.



 



Topic's author
#19
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
Besides - I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no. Why would I not take my own advice? Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers. 

"Clients"?   So you charge people (your clients) to listen to your version of the gospels then?

Do you allow your "clients" to question you on your own in-depth biblical knowledge?

And what do you call these "counseling" sessions ?

#20
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Besides - I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no. Why would I not take my own advice? Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers. 

"Clients"?   So you charge people (your clients) to listen to your version of the gospels then?

Do you allow your "clients" to question you on your own in-depth biblical knowledge?

And what do you call these "counseling" sessions ?

I am a lawyer.  There you go. Now you know.  I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police. I don't care how you read that - no comment is the right thing to do.  When we are in  a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is not mine to prove we are innocent. It is our job to make sure the prosecutor does his or her job properly.  If my client insists in getting into the box - despite my advices - I will examine him or her asking open ended questions so that they can answer particular questions. I never ask a question I don't know the answer to. And I am not actually allowed to ask my client - yes or no questions because I would be accused of leading the witness. And then the prosecution will cross - examine my client. The cross-examiner is permitted to ask both open ended questions and leading questions. He would be foolish to ask open ended questions. His job is to ask leading questions.  He wants a yes or a no. Why? Because then he can lead him into traps and inconsistencies.  I counsel my clients - NEVER to answer a question with a yes or no - but always to qualify what you are saying - because the cross examiner never asks a question without a purpose or intention to lead to somewhere. But the first rule of cross - examination is NEVER ask a question you don't know the answer too.  Because when you do - the answer you will get will probably upset the apple cart and throw you off.  But I know that the same advice is being given to witnesses for the prosecution for when I cross examine.  And there will be times when I insist to the judge - that the witness needs to answer the question - with a simple yes or no. But judges do not lightly support this submission. And the reason they don't is because they know that doing so - is leading the witness into unfair or unforeseen traps.  Just because witness X saw Y do something with his left hand 6 months ago and wrote it in his statement does not mean that his evidence today that Y used his right hand and is confident that it was not his left hand - does not automatically mean that Y is innocent.  statements made close to the time of the crime recalled differently 6 months later - are inconsistent and can be used to call into question the reliability of the witness's evidence - but that inconsistency does not necessarily weaken the prosecution's case.  

So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid? 
Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students,  I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them. 
Do I allow students to question me? Absolutely. I have no problem with this. Do I allow clients to question me? Not in a court setting, no. But they are free to ask me whatever the like about the law. I do charge them for that privilege. 

I never talked about counseling session. I said I counsel my clients. Lawyers are called Counsel.  We council our clients. We give advice. 

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications. 


Topic's author
#21
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
I am a lawyer.  There you go. Now you know. 

I see . So you were just being smart when I asked you a BIBLICAL - yes or no - question by responding with "I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no.". 

 It is a shame that in the capacity as a lawyer that you do not question and scrutinise the scriptures.  I would hate you as my barrister. 


I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police.

Or by  someone who may be holding more facts than the defence think they have ?


 no comment is the right thing to do. 

It sure is, when you have no answer to give anyway.



 It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case.


I agree. This will be the dictate concerning  The Burden of Proof, wouldn't it?   The obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for any arguments that YOU make.  Along with -  It is to he  that makes the claims to provide the proof?    Something you fail to do often.    It's a shame  that YOU do not use the same yardstick when it comes to claims   YOU have made about the bible.


So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid? 

Not at all, but it was you that brought "YOUR CLIENTS" into a thread concerning questions about the bible, that you cannot yourself answer. It wasn't me. 


Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, 

I should think not! . That would be robbing them wouldn't it?  Or would the legal term in the biblical sense be  "fleecing your sheep"?



Do I allow students to question me? Absolutely.

How old are your BIBLICAL students? 



Do I allow clients to question me? Not in a court setting, no.


Then STOP! conflating the two completely different subjects.  You wouldn't get away with such shenanigans in any court of law in the west.  I am only questioning you on matters biblical     as you know full well  .   You are trying to bring simple questions and queries about the bible in a Court Of Law setting.     Do you not realise how desperate this is,  not to mention how stupid you are coming across as?



But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications. 


And there it is. And doesn't surprise me one single bit.

Both Pastor and Chaplain. That doesn't understand the scriptures him/her self. You  Christians just love your titles don't you.... Reverend?   I bet you just love being 'revered ' too.

You do remember the 7 Woes's , don't you?

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2  “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

INDEED!





 I replied to yet another of your unfounded accusations about me here. I see you have avoided it like one of the Egyptian plagues.

Son of God.

 I am not expecting an apology .. Reverend














Topic's author
#22
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Think about it logically.

 One would believe this to be easy for one that claims to be a lawyer. #20

But do not old your breath, Vic.



Topic's author
#23
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
I'm thinking it's one of many parts in the  block of scriptures that have people making pilgrimages to a certain place.



What a sight this would have been Deb, don't you think?   Imagine it.  All those "saints" being reunited with loved ones and relatives they had never met or seen?  I am sure every person, indeed every family involved in the witnessing of this phenomena would have passed this miracle of miracles  down orally if not in writing?  But we have only one single written account of it ever happening! What ever would we have done without Matthew? 


52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53


 No other gospel writer mentions  it and not   a single historian mentions it either. 



Topic's author
#24
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@oromagi
Matthew is reporting the presence of many  newly resurrected, newly saved but not yet ascended souls wandering through Jerusalem

 Yes odd that he alone reports this.  And further, it is odd that he reports this - miracle of miracles -  happened not only at time of his death but the time of the resurrection too, and in the same sentence.
Topic's author
#25
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
This is not to mention the devastating  earthquake that you say,

"would tear apart nearly every house and leave an ocean of bricks and buried residents.  The numbers of people buried and trapped would be astonishing.  People who could not find their home or families might be separated for weeks.  After a big earthquake, there would be large numbers of people who were assumed dead who returned days, weeks, even years later.  So earthquakes become associated with resurrections.  #2  oromagi"


No. Not a single historian in the whole world reported this phenomenon  of dead people rising or the earthquake

Topic's author
#26
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
Repost. I didn't address it to the intended addressee. i.e. the intended recipient 


I am a lawyer.  There you go. Now you know. 

I see . So you were just being smart when I asked you a BIBLICAL - yes or no - question by responding with "I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no.". 

 It is a shame that in the capacity as a lawyer that you do not question and scrutinise the scriptures.  I would hate you as my barrister. 


I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police.

Or by  someone who may be holding more facts than the defence think they have ?


 no comment is the right thing to do. 

It sure is, when you have no answer to give anyway.



 It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case.


I agree. This will be the dictate concerning  The Burden of Proof, wouldn't it?   The obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for any arguments that YOU make.  Along with -  It is to he  that makes the claims to provide the proof?    Something you fail to do often.    It's a shame  that YOU do not use the same yardstick when it comes to claims   YOU have made about the bible.


So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid? 

Not at all, but it was you that brought "YOUR CLIENTS" into a thread concerning questions about the bible, that you cannot yourself answer. It wasn't me. 


Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, 

I should think not! . That would be robbing them wouldn't it?  Or would the legal term in the biblical sense be  "fleecing your sheep"?



Do I allow students to question me? Absolutely.

How old are your BIBLICAL students? 



Do I allow clients to question me? Not in a court setting, no.


Then STOP! conflating the two completely different subjects.  You wouldn't get away with such shenanigans in any court of law in the west.  I am only questioning you on matters biblical     as you know full well  .   You are trying to bring simple questions and queries about the bible in a Court Of Law setting.     Do you not realise how desperate this is,  not to mention how stupid you are coming across as?



But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications. 


And there it is. And doesn't surprise me one single bit.

Both Pastor and Chaplain. That doesn't understand the scriptures him/her self. You  Christians just love your titles don't you.... Reverend?   I bet you just love being 'revered ' too.

You do remember the 7 Woes's , don't you?

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2  “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

INDEED!





 I replied to yet another of your unfounded accusations about me here. I see you have avoided it like one of the Egyptian plagues.

Son of God.

 I am not expecting an apology .. Reverend


#27
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
There are no real qualifications though.

Pseudo-qualification and sincerity, still  doesn't validate the  Christian god hypothesis....Or the Christian god hypothesis doesn't validate your pseudo-qualifications or sincerity.

You might or might not be counselling troubled people with invalid data.




#28
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
There are no real qualifications though.

Pseudo-qualification and sincerity, still  doesn't validate the  Christian god hypothesis....Or the Christian god hypothesis doesn't validate your pseudo-qualifications or sincerity.

You might or might not be counselling troubled people with invalid data.

I have no idea what you are saying. Can you put it into English please?

#29
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen

I am a lawyer.  There you go. Now you know. 

I see . So you were just being smart when I asked you a BIBLICAL - yes or no - question by responding with "I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no.". 

 It is a shame that in the capacity as a lawyer that you do not question and scrutinise the scriptures.  I would hate you as my barrister. 
I was not trying to be smart. I was just responding from where I am.  Stop with the insults. I scrutinize everything. This is why you despise me so much. I constantly reveal that you have no clue what you are talking about.  I could care less about being your lawyer. You seem like most of my clients - you think you know better than the lawyer. 

I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police.

Or by  someone who may be holding more facts than the defence think they have ?
No comment is an appropriate response. It matters not how you want to read it. 

 no comment is the right thing to do. 

It sure is, when you have no answer to give anyway.

It is always the best thing to do - especially when you have the right answers. 

 It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case.


I agree. This will be the dictate concerning  The Burden of Proof, wouldn't it?   The obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for any arguments that YOU make.  Along with -  It is to he  that makes the claims to provide the proof?    Something you fail to do often.    It's a shame  that YOU do not use the same yardstick when it comes to claims   YOU have made about the bible.
Yes, I fail sometimes. So what I am human.  I am not pretending to know everything or to have all the answers. There are plenty of times I say I don't know. Or I say I am speculating. I use the appropriate yardstick when coming to bible. I don't use beyond reasonable doubt I use on the balance of probabilities - and this is the standard that people who study history and documents use. The fact that you don't even realise this only demonstrates your ignorance. 

So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid? 

Not at all, but it was you that brought "YOUR CLIENTS" into a thread concerning questions about the bible, that you cannot yourself answer. It wasn't me. 

Again I respond to the waffle you ask.  If you are going to go around in circles rather than getting the point - I will join you. 

Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, 

I should think not! . That would be robbing them wouldn't it?  Or would the legal term in the biblical sense be  "fleecing your sheep"?
Whatever I do is none of your business.  The fact you think you can JUDGE me - is sad and pathetic. 

Do I allow students to question me? Absolutely.
How old are your BIBLICAL students? 
They range from 16 - 90. They include undergrads through to PH.D.s  and from a range of different religious and non-religious  backgrounds. 

Do I allow clients to question me? Not in a court setting, no.
Then STOP! conflating the two completely different subjects.  You wouldn't get away with such shenanigans in any court of law in the west.  I am only questioning you on matters biblical     as you know full well  .   You are trying to bring simple questions and queries about the bible in a Court Of Law setting.     Do you not realise how desperate this is,  not to mention how stupid you are coming across as?
I answered a question. I have just responded by saying I don't answer with simplistic yes or no answers.  That is all I have done. AND you hate it. You want to lead me up the proverbial path to prove how brilliant you are.  I am not going to play your games. I don't care if it looks desperate - because like you - I know the truth of what you are attempting to do.  And you call me stupid? 

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications. 

And there it is. And doesn't surprise me one single bit.

Both Pastor and Chaplain. That doesn't understand the scriptures him/her self. You  Christians just love your titles don't you.... Reverend?   I bet you just love being 'revered ' too.
LOL! - I certainly don't understand the bible in the way you distort them. This is true. You don't have a proper methodology. You just choose passages out of context and run with it. But hey - don't let the facts stand in the way of playing your game.  And I am not a reverend. 

Deleted your false accusations. 

 I replied to yet another of your unfounded accusations about me here. I see you have avoided it like one of the Egyptian plagues.

Son of God.

Yes, I saw that - and thank you. I am glad you took the time to FINALLY answer my question. Again your hypocrisy is evident though - for some reason - the fact that you miss something is evidence that you are not running away.  If I miss something or forget something you just accuse. You really are a two faced bit of work.  


I am not expecting an apology .. Reverend
Good, because I don't apologise unless I have done something wrong. 

#30
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
You're playing dumb now.

Read and analyse, and a person of your self reputation should easily understand.