Of Pigs & Men

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 19
Topic's author
#1
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
This has to be among the silliest stories in the New Testament scriptures. And this is not "nitpicking". 

 It starts with Jesus in a boat crossing to a city named  Gadarenes ( perhaps, this day Jesus didn't feel like getting his feet wet by simply walking on the water of lake Galilee to the other side?) where he meets a man with  "unclean spirit" ; we can assume a demon of sorts has taken possession of the poor man.

And god forbid ! that I dare take this silly story "out of context", here is the full account with the relevant parts highlighted bold & underlined;

Mark 5:1-20

Healing of a Demoniac.  New English Translation

5 So they came to the other side of the lake, to the region of the Gerasenes.  2 Just as Jesus was getting out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs and met him.
3 He lived among the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For his hands and feet had often been bound with chains and shackles, but he had torn the chains apart and broken the shackles in pieces. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Each night and every day among the tombs and in the mountains, he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him. 
7 Then he cried out with a loud voice, “Leave me alone, Jesus, Son of the Most High God! I implore you by God—do not torment me!” 8 (For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of that man, you unclean spirit!”) 9 Jesus[ asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” 

10 He begged Jesus repeatedly not to send them out of the region. 11 There on the hillside, a great herd of pigs was feeding. 12 And the demonic spirits begged him, “Send us into the pigs. Let us enter them. 13 Jesus gave them permission.  So the unclean spirits came out and went into the pigs. Then the herd rushed down the steep slope into the lake, and about 2,000 were drowned in the lake.” 

And it goes on to tell us that  all the people that witnessed  this  event,  "ran off and spread the news in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened". 

 So Jesus  exorcised a man of his demon/demons named "legion" and "we".

The "permission" is to me, the sticking point. Why did they need Jesus's permission?
Topic's author
#2
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Why did these demons calling themselves "legion" ask for or need permission?

12 And the demonic spirits begged him, “Send us into the pigs. Let us enter them. 13 Jesus gave them permission. 
Topic's author
#3
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Seems very odd that they for some reason needed permission to enter the pigs yet nowhere does it mention that these demons asked anyone's or needed permission to enter and possess  this poor man? 
#4
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Because it's all a load of archaic nonsense Stephen....You know that and I know that.

And archaic nonsense can be anything it wants to be and anything anybody wants it to be.

A lunatic, a herd of pigs and a clever guy in a boat....go for it.
Topic's author
#5
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Well , Vic.

 I find it absolute astounding that these demons can just jump into a human willy nilly, without haven't to wait for any sort of sanction or permission, don't you. 
Yet, here we have them just quivering and pleading to be allowed to possess these pigs, PIGS! VIC, PIGS!!!!!! Thousands of them!!!!

"The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned". Mark 5:13

And  I suppose we can only assume that these demons weren't  Jew demons. 


#6
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Imaginary demons.

You and I should be content in the knowledge that demons as possessive entities do not and did not exist.

Though as a mythological/fictional narrative, demons can be made to jump about willy nilly, if that is what the author/story teller wishes.

There is nothing at all wrong with a good entertaining fantasy tale....Story telling was a major source of entertainment back in the day, just as it still is now.
#7
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Seems very odd that they for some reason needed permission to enter the pigs yet nowhere does it mention that these demons asked anyone's or needed permission to enter and possess  this poor man? 
Idolatry answers the question. 
Topic's author
#8
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
Seems very odd that they for some reason needed permission to enter the pigs yet nowhere does it mention that these demons asked anyone's or needed permission to enter and possess  this poor man? 
Idolatry answers the question. 

 Nope. Nothing there at all concerning idolatry . Could you dare to expand on your one word 'explanation'? 

And this part is very confusing: tell me if I have this wrong

P1
6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus]
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me[ he,the man], Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me[ he the man]”

Do I have P1  correct thus far?
#9
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Stephen
Perhaps the author of the story just wants the demon(s) to act like it knows it is before a greater power, an authority. Legion was not in the presence of the Lord and Savior when it entered the possessed man, but now it is, and asks permission to enter even an animal.
Topic's author
#10
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Castin
Perhaps the author of the story just wants the demon(s) to act like it knows ........................


Well I am trying to work out who is talking to who at the moment.

Such as here>. 6 "When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus] . Ok simply enough, so all through 6  The MAN runs to Jesus and falls on knees.<<<<<<<<<< Is this the correct reading?
   
 I will split the following verse 7 into A-B & C 

7 (A)He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice,

   (B) “What do you want with me[ the man said], Jesus, Son of the Most High God? 

   (C)In God’s name don’t torture me[ said  the man]”.

Are  A,B & C correct so far?

#11
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
P1
6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus]
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me[ he,the man], Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me[ he the man]”

Do I have P1  correct thus far?
I presume you are suggesting that P1 is human and that the human is begging Jesus not to torture him. Please correct me if I assume incorrectly. 

If this is your point I would say that I do not think you are correct.  No ordinary man is going to know from a distance or even close that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God. This was clearly in the passage a particular knowledge known by the demons within the man - the man being used by the demons to speak. I assume the demon is talking about Jesus - as God, not sending him to the eternal lake of fire IMMEDIATELY.  Incidentally, Jesus did not send them to the Lake of Fire, having no intention of torturing them at this time. 

Jesus, in his ministry on earth was God. Yet, he did not function in that role on earth. He functioned as man -    under the power of the Spirit of God. His miracles on earth - whatsoever the nature - were never meant to prove his divinity.  It is an error to think so.  

In any event, I am probably not going to take every word the demon speaks as" absolute truth". Demons, like their master, Satan, tend to mix truth with error. They don't generally come out and tell blatant lies. They generally want to seduce you - so they give you lots of truth and then start to mix it with error when they get your ear.  Satan for example - in the beginning - twisted God's words - He did not necessarily tell a lie - just questioned God.  That is all he did and that was enough. 

As for the idolatry. I did not expect you to see it. Still, where did this story take place? In Israel or Gentile land? Who owned the pigs? Jews or Gentiles? Whoever the owner of the pigs were - did they value their pigs and property more than the cure of this poor man in the cemetery?  Did they value their business more than the need for redemption and the visit of Jesus, the Savior? Idolatry is everywhere? From the moment we see the man with Legion - we can sense that.  The pigs - their owners - the business - what is idolatry? If you are just going to suggest little idols made of wood and stone, then you will miss it in its substance.


Topic's author
#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
P1
6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus]
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me[ he,the man], Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me[ he the man]”

Do I have P1  correct thus far?
I presume you are suggesting that P1 is human and that the human is begging Jesus not to torture him. Please correct me if I assume incorrectly. 


I though my illustration made  it clear by my interjections of [the man] and in bold  and separating [the man] from [Jesus].

I see that  I  have to make it even more clear for you. SO,   At   6  there is  a man possessed running towards Jesus. Yes or No?

And 7 is the man shouting two questions at Jesus. Yes or No?


No ordinary man is going to know from a distance or even close that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God.

 The scripture does say  "a man"   though doesn't it? So lets stick to what the scripture CLEARLY states.

2 "Just as Jesus was getting out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs and met him".  So  is this the demon possessed man, Yes or No?

 And just three short verses on it states this>

"6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him. " Is the "he"  in this verse, the man. yes or no? 


You may have a good point of concerning a  "ordinary man",  as Jesus was in another country and no one of the general population probably  wouldn't have know him.   There again , no one in the city he was believed to be king of didn't even know him either , did they?  Or what kind of a "man" he was either, did they? 



This was clearly in the passage a particular knowledge known by the demons within the man -
I am not sure what you are trying to say there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


the man being used by the demons to speak.
Yes,  that is what I am assuming. So these demons then , 2000 of them, have full control over this mans words and actions? Yes or NO? 



I assume the demon is talking about Jesus - as God,

 No,  it is clearly written and shown that the demon possessed man is talking TO Jesus.  Not about Jesus.



I didn't need to address the rest of your sermon  of  who owned the pigs etc etc is irrelevant.  So if we could just stick to the content of my questions and what the bible actually states and not what you believe or want it to state. This really isn't a lot to ask and the conversation would flow a lot better and quicker without your uncalled for (and certainly not asked for) asides and interjections that have nothing to do with the thread.
















#13
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Actually you asked me to explain the idolatry. 

"nope. Nothing there at all concerning idolatry . Could you dare to expand on your one word 'explanation'?" https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4911/post-links/209217
So if you don't want to discuss it - don't ask. 

The particular knowledge the man had was supernatural - not ordinary. It was demonic knowledge - similar to many occasions in the NT and Acts where demons talked to Jesus or to his disciples or to Paul. There is a similarity about all of them - not being happy with Jesus - being on the planet - before what they thought was the appointed time. Mark 1:24. 

v. 8 explains it was the demoniac responding to Jesus' command to come out of him. A man was filled with evil spirits. That is what the story is saying. It is not saying an animal was filled with evil spirits coming to Jesus. I said it was a man. But the man clearly has special knowledge. 

Do the evil spirits have total control over the man? I don't know. The passage does not say so explicitly. It does say that he lived in the tombs and that because of the evil spirits he was strong enough to break chains. And strong enough that no one was able to subdue him. And that he would cut himself  and cry out. There certainly seems to be a sense that however much control they had over the man - it was significant.  Was it total? I cannot say for sure - but for you to ask me for a yes or no is unhelpful.  I am not a witness to be cross examined or as you like to do - lead me along a path. If you want to say something - just say it. But don't ask me to expect me to give you yes or no answers to questions which require a fuller answer.  The man seems to be out of control prior to Jesus casting the demons out of him.  Whereas v. 15 indicates that after he was freed from their grasp - he was sitting there in his right mind.  

When I said the man was talking about Jesus as God - I was not meaning to indicate he was not talking to Jesus.  The man said to Jesus - what do you want with me Jesus, son of the most high God? He is clearly not only talking to Jesus - but describing him as well.  
Topic's author
#14
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2

When I said the man was talking about Jesus as God - I was not meaning to indicate he was not talking to Jesus.  The man said to Jesus - what do you want with me Jesus, son of the most high God? He is clearly not only talking to Jesus - but describing him as well. 

 

 I see you haven't bothered to confirm or deny anything either way above. So  stop trying to be clever, because you'er not, by any means.

John the baptist  was said to have " had a demon " too, didn't he?
#15
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
When I said the man was talking about Jesus as God - I was not meaning to indicate he was not talking to Jesus.  The man said to Jesus - what do you want with me Jesus, son of the most high God? He is clearly not only talking to Jesus - but describing him as well. 

 

 I see you haven't bothered to confirm or deny anything either way above. So  stop trying to be clever, because you'er not, by any means.

John the baptist  was said to have " had a demon " too, didn't he?

So is the point of our discussions for me to confirm and deny things is it? 
Topic's author
#16
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
So is the point of our discussions for me to confirm and deny things is it? 

As I have explained,  I want to know if I am reading the text correctly. I am trying to work out who is talking to who .  This is why I am asking these questions. 

 A man runs to Jesus whilst possessed by 2.000 demons. He then starts talking to Jesus asking him a question and begs jeus not to torture him.  Is this the correct reading. 

6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus] . 
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?[ he,the man said ] In God’s name don’t torture me[ the man said]”.

 What is so hard for you to confirm in those to verses?  Just tell me f or not I have read it wrong.
#17
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
So is the point of our discussions for me to confirm and deny things is it? 

As I have explained,  I want to know if I am reading the text correctly. I am trying to work out who is talking to who .  This is why I am asking these questions. 

 A man runs to Jesus whilst possessed by 2.000 demons. He then starts talking to Jesus asking him a question and begs jeus not to torture him.  Is this the correct reading. 

6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus] . 
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?[ he,the man said ] In God’s name don’t torture me[ the man said]”.

 What is so hard for you to confirm in those to verses?  Just tell me f or not I have read it wrong.
If it is so easy - why are you asking? 
Topic's author
#18
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
If it is so easy - why are you asking? 

Easy for you, is what I mean as you know full well. So stop being so fkn pedantic.

And I have explained three fkn times now why I want you to confirm this for me.  I am sure not  I am reading it correct and I believe  -  with you being a teacher with "clients" of your own, should be able to simply confirm for me if or not I am correct. 

A man runs to Jesus whilst possessed by 2.000 demons. He then starts talking to Jesus asking him a question and begs jeus not to torture him.  Is this the correct reading. 

6 When he [the man] saw Jesus from a distance, he [the man] ran and fell on his knees in front of him. [Jesus] . 
7 He [the man] shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?[ he,the man said ] In God’s name don’t torture me[ the man said]”.

 What is so hard for you to confirm in those to verses?  Just tell me if or not I have read it wrong.





And you ignored this completely:   So these demons then , 2000 of them, have full control over this mans words and actions? Yes or NO? 



Topic's author
#19
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,619
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
I think the spinless among the believers here can see, that just in those two verses, how ridiculous the whole story is.

First it tells us that "the man possessed" met Jesus as he was getting  out of the boat.  But just three verse later we have "the possessed man" running to him from  afar to meet him.

 Apparently then these 2,000 demons that have possessed this man's mind and body suddenly decide it would be a good idea to cause the man run to the only one that can exorcise them and banish them to the hell fires, or in the case a watery grave transported by pigs all the way.. Why would they do that?


 Why would the demons run to the very person that they had been apposed to all of  their existence?  They had made sure that  the mere mortals of the city couldn't bind them  yet  here they are, all 2,000 of them running to the only man that could bind and destroy them. Why? 

 John the baptist was said you have been possessed and to have had a demon. I suppose our resident Christians will tell us that this was a different kind of demon ( maybe a head of some long dead murdered priest that he didn't like and that he was once opposed to or had opposes him? .) Ya never can tell with these scriptures. And it is never mentioned if or not John had undergone an exorcism. Or who performed it. 

 In those ancient  days I suspect that just behaving different or saying something others did not like  or could not believe,  one could, or would, be classed as demon possessed? 




Mark 5:1-20

Healing of a Demoniac.  New English Translation

5 So they came to the other side of the lake, to the region of the Gerasenes.  2 Just as Jesus was getting out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came from the tombs and met him.
3 He lived among the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For his hands and feet had often been bound with chains and shackles, but he had torn the chains apart and broken the shackles in pieces. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Each night and every day among the tombs and in the mountains, he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down before him. 
7 Then he cried out with a loud voice, “Leave me alone, Jesus, Son of the Most High God! I implore you by God—do not torment me!” 8 (For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of that man, you unclean spirit!”) 9 Jesus[ asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” 

10 He begged Jesus repeatedly not to send them out of the region. 11 There on the hillside, a great herd of pigs was feeding. 12 And the demonic spirits begged him, “Send us into the pigs. Let us enter them. 13 Jesus gave them permission.  So the unclean spirits came out and went into the pigs. Then the herd rushed down the steep slope into the lake, and about 2,000 were drowned in the lake.” 

And it goes on to tell us that  all the people that witnessed  this  event,  "ran off and spread the news in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened". 

 So Jesus  exorcised a man of his demon/demons named "legion" and "we".

The "permission" is to me, the sticking point. Why did they need Jesus's permission?