Can't wait for Trump to lose like a bitch

Author: Death23

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#181
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
The regressive tax system punishes people who do well so that they can buy votes from the people who are in the lower half of the income strata.
you don't seem to know what a regressive tax system means. It means charging a uniform amount to everyone so that it hits poor people harder. IE, charging a flat tax of $20 to everyone is regressive because that $20 is a larger percentage of the income of a poor person than of a rich person. 

An income tax is, by definition, not regressive. 

They target the upper 5% and middle 30% so that they can brag on not charging the lower 49% anything. 
no, taxes are higher on the people who earn the most money, ie the people who can afford to pay more. Everyone who lives into a society needs to pay into maintaining and improving that society. if you are a billionaire you can afford to pay in alot more than people making minimum wage. Billionaires also get alot more out of government programs. for example they earn their profits subsidized by government services (an educated workforce, publicly funded roads etc). 

Politicians like to power grab - it would probably only take 10–15% of the current tax revenue to completely balance the budget and do EVERYTHING that the government SHOULD be doing for the American citizens.
i'm guessing that when you say everything the government should be doing, what you mean is doing absolutely nothing to help anyone but the rich. 

However, politicians have created many times as many services as the government should be doing all in the interest of buying votes. 
if you want to see how that works out, look at how people lived in the 1800's. Government didn't offer any of those services you hate. And people starved to death, were maimed and killed because corporations could treat people how they want etc. It was a horrific period to be a worker. And that is what you are advocating for returning to. 

This is how it has been going for the last 40+ years. This is exactly why we pay drastically higher taxes than normal and why we have little to show for our taxes.\
higher than normal? The US has fairly low effective tax rates for a 1st world country. What exactly is a "normal" tax rate? Because the tax rate on both the wealthy and corporations in the US has been falling for decades. 


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#182
Death23
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@Greyparrot
Honestly I worked hard til I got money. Now I’m totally lazy and live off investment income.
#183
Greyparrot
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@Death23
You earned that investment income. Think of all the crap you had to give up by not buying scratch off tickets and alcohol and choosing to not live a paycheck to paycheck lifestyle.

Of course I personally have the best of both worlds by pretending to the government that I live paycheck to paycheck when I actually choose to work less while the government then funnels my welfare money into my IRA. 

I make the government work for me, not the other way around.
#184
Greyparrot
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@HistoryBuff
higher than normal? The US has fairly low effective tax rates for a 1st world country.

In 1913, the marginal tax rate was 1% on income of $0 to $20,000, 2% on income of $20,000 to $50,000, 3% on income of $50,000 to $75,000, 4% on income of $75,000 to $100,000, 5% on income of $100,000 to $250,000, 6% on income of $250,000 to $500,000, and 7% on income of $500,000 and up. Tax rates were the same for everyone and there was no filing status. This meant everyone paid the same rate whether they were single, married, or heads of households.

#185
Danielle
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HB: Our taxes are not that high for a first world country
GP: Yeah well taxes used to be uniform and a lot lower


One day GP will respond to someone without a red herring. Today is not that day. 
#186
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
You really didn't respond to what I said. I said the US tax rates are not high compared to other 1st world countries. I said the tax rates in the US have been falling for decades. 

You responded by talking about tax rates from over 100 years ago. This isn't a response to anything I said. in 1913 the government wasn't enforcing safety standards. There were barely any roads to maintain. There was little to no safety net preventing people from starving to death. There are countless things that the government does that we rely on today that they (and no one else) was doing back then. 
#187
Greyparrot
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@Danielle
One day GP will respond to someone without a red herring. Today is not that day. 

Thank you for your insightful definition of what is "normal"

If normal is living with these shitty government services and actually expanding them and making them mandatory, then why do you give a fuck about incompetent police?
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#188
Death23
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@Greyparrot
Well, generally the more unrelated income is from work the less I consider it to be "earned". I did work for a lot of it, but now I haven't been lately mostly because the work I did got trashed by COVID. I'll probably go back after the vaccine, mostly cuz it beats sitting around.
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#189
Death23
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@Greyparrot
Mostly I provided the link about tax burdens because the most relevant fact (I think) in considering fairness with respect to tax policy is to the overall combined tax burden. You had said something like bottom 49% pay no tax but this is misleading at best when you consider payroll, state, and local taxes.
#190
Danielle
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@Greyparrot
I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention the word "normal." 
#191
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@Danielle
I have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't mention the word "normal." 

Maybe you should read the HB quote I highlighted then instead of running the red herring Mrs. Whataboutism.
#192
Greyparrot
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@HistoryBuff
The only chance for a flat tax policy as the Nordic model where the poor is taxed at 40% can only occur when there are no alternatives to shitty government services. That also will never happen in America.


#193
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@Death23
@HistoryBuff
By the way...this is the ideal Model Nation for Mediocrity. I strongly urge you to read this article.

"Mediocrity works great when you can fool society into accepting it and have the oil wealth to finance it. But the true path to prosperity is, and always will be, a system based on economic freedom that rewards hard work, creativity, and achievement."



You’re not to think you are anything special.
You’re not to think you are as good as we are.
You’re not to think you are smarter than we are.
You’re not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You’re not to think you know more than we do.
You’re not to think you are more important than we are.
You’re not to think you are good at anything.
You’re not to laugh at us.
You’re not to think anyone cares about you.
You’re not to think you can teach us anything.

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#194
Death23
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@Greyparrot
I don't agree with everything Norway does, but that article is full of intentionally misleading statistics. Show me the overall tax burden in Norway - by income group - compared to the overall tax burden in the United States - by income group. BTW, you make 120k salary in San Francisco you're going to get about the same take-home pay if you made that much in Oslo. See for yourself:


#195
Greyparrot
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@Death23
All you have to do is compare the percent of GDP taxation.

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#196
Death23
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@Greyparrot
More misleading stats. That is only federal spending in that source. You're sounding like the people who talk just about federal personal income tax when they're discussing how progressive taxation is in the United States.

Public spending as a % of GDP would be more appropriate. US has a pretty high deficit. Norway's public revenue may fluctuate significantly with oil prices too.


US Looking like just under 40% total combined federal, state and local. Norway's government is unitary. Norway looks like about 50% recently.

#197
Greyparrot
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@Death23
It's all subjective. If you enjoy living under the monopoly of government services, there are plenty of high priced options.
#198
ethang5
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@Danielle
@Greyparrot
I think GP's point was that we get very little back for what we pay in taxes. For that, what we pay is pretty high. Most of our taxes are funneled to the bottom 45% of society.
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Paying a higher rate in taxes because you make more IS regressive. It penalizes success, and encourages people to make less so that they pay less. We see this happening to the US right now. Our tax base is shrinking in relation to the total number of potential taxpayers even as total job numbers have increased.
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#199
Death23
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@Greyparrot
Can't trust the providers of services to give honest advice in most situations, which is totally stupid because the providers of the services usually would be a very convenient expert. That's how business is in capitalism. You got to not trust and keep everyone at arms length because you know that the world's full of people trying to con you. It's not like that with government services (usually) because there's no profit motive. Still got to watch out for competence problems though. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better.
#200
Greyparrot
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@ethang5
That's not really my point though. My point is that if you want to live with a monopoly provider of COMPETENT services, then you are going to have to have the people that use those services (namely the poor) to pay enough in taxes to actually give a fuck about who they elect to manage the services instead of the status quo government union lobbyists.
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#201
Death23
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@Greyparrot
Yes, the situation with unions is a form of wholesale corruption, but it would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bathwater... There are ways to correct this problem to ensure that it is the interests of the public that are served.
#202
Danielle
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@Greyparrot

The quote you highlighted was "the US has fairly low effective tax rates for a 1st world country." You responded by giving the marginal tax rates for 1913 and saying that tax rates were the same for everyone back then, plus there was no filing status. The way I paraphrased the fallacious red herring was accurate.

And note I didn't reference anything about whataboutism either just like I never mentioned anything about normalcy. You just make things up. 


#203
Danielle
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@ethang5
I think GP's point was that we get very little back for what we pay in taxes.
Yes, that was his point but it's not what I responded to.  It's true for some people. 
#204
ethang5
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@Danielle
You wrote,

HB: Our taxes are not that high for a first world country
GP: Yeah well taxes used to be uniform and a lot lower
One day GP will respond to someone without a red herring. Today is not that day. 
GP said his response to HB's point about high taxes was not his main point, but he did respond to what you noted HB said. You just picked another one of his responses and implies he had not responded to HB's comment. He did.
#205
Danielle
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@ethang5
In post 181 HistoryBuff said the US has a relatively low tax rate for a first world country. In post 184 Greyparrot brought up a red herring about how our tax rate used to be lower. I pointed this out in post 185. When you say he "did respond" to what I noted I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're confused by my point then I would refer you to post #186 where HistoryBuff explains why GPs response to him was in fact a fallacious red herring. 

As for Grey's other points, some I agree with and some I don't, but I don't find him enjoyable to converse with so I just commented generally about the red herring.
#206
ethang5
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@Danielle
OK, but his point that we get little value for the taxes we pay, fully addresses HB claim that we pay relatively low taxes. Factor in value for money, our taxes are sky high. Fully half of Americans paying taxes hardly benefit from those taxes. They are funnelled to low income people who do not pay taxes.

And as the current spending bill shows, even funnelled to foreign countries instead of the American people. Gender studies in Pakistan????