Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?

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@SkepticalOne
as related to this thread, atheism/theism are not moral philosophies....neither are reasonable from a moral standpoint. In your thread you drop the theistic ambiguity and name Christianity, which is a moral view, but again, you compare it to atheism which is not a moral philosophy. The comparison itself is not reasonable.

Its like you're pitting "Kumbaya" against silence and asking which is better music. There is a category error in the comparison.
Well stated.
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@SkepticalOne
I justify God allowing Israel to experience chattel slavery in Egypt as a typological lesson on what bondage is. As pointed out, I justify the type of slavery or servitude practiced in Israel as different from New World slavery or ANE slavery, a cut above. I did this in Post # 223.
That makes no sense.  God allowed Israel to experience chattel slavery....
Yes, Israel experienced chattel slavery in Egypt.

Now it came about in the course of those many days that the king of Egypt died. And the sons of Israel sighed because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry for help because of their bondage rose up to God. 

The Lord said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings.

Now, behold, the cry of the sons of Israel has come to Me; furthermore, I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them.

Furthermore I have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, because the Egyptians are holding them in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant.

Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.

And the Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted us, and imposed hard labor on us.

God was giving Israel an object lesson. He was instructing them never to treat others the way they had been treated in Egypt.

You shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and you shall be careful to observe these statutes.

and then codified chattel slavery into Mosaic law? If God was trying to teach Israel a lesson regarding chattel slavery..then why would it be condoned...by God?! This reasoning doesn't stand up. 
No, He did not codify chattel slavery. He forbid Israel from practicing the same harsh treatment that Israel experienced in Egypt. I have explained this to you in previous posts and you keep coming back to it. You ignored my answer. Chattle slavery is about property. This is not the slavery of Israel, as I noted in a previous post. I did not notice you added another post on that thread, but I'm swamped with catch up here at the moment and I am busy tomorrow too. 

“You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes.

The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, FOR you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God.
 
So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

“You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land.

Deuteronomy 24:17-19 (NASB)
17 “You shall not pervert the justice [a]due an alien or [b]an orphan, nor take a widow’s garment in pledge. 18 But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and that the Lord your God redeemed you from there; therefore I am commanding you to do this thing.
19 “When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the [c]orphan, and for the widow, in order that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt; therefore I am commanding you to do this thing.

I have covered Exodus 21:7 and other passages that speak of slavery in a rather long couple of posts to you. 

As I have said, the type of 'slavery' or servitude is not the same as chattel slavery where people are harshly mistreated. Where Israel ignored such statutes they went against God's commands to treat aliens well. I have covered the property clause and given reasons why it was not the type as experienced in Egypt or the kind we associate with the kind practiced in the USA. 


God: You see, Israel, chattel slavery denies basic human dignity.

Israel: Yes, God, we see.  We'll never do that to anyone.

God:  No, No!!  You've got that wrong - You'll never do that to MY people. Everyone else is fair game.

Israel: Oh...uh..ok.

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
God orders the Israelites to make a distinction between the Hebrew servants and the those of foreign nations. They were:
·        Allowed to 'buy' (not take!) slaves from foreign nations around them...
·        Finally, it should be noted that the passage says that they "can" make them slaves for life--not that they "were automatically" slaves for life. Somehow, freedom was the default and lifetime slavery only an 'option'.

The Great Escape Clause…?
Deut 23.15 has this fascinating passage:
If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. 16 Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him. (Deut 23.15)...
"A slave could also be freed by running away. According to Deuteronomy, a runaway slave is not to be returned to its master. He should be sheltered if he wishes or allowed to go free, and he must not be taken advantage of (Deut 23:16-17). This provision is strikingly different from the laws of slavery in the surrounding nations and is explained as due to Israel's own history of slaves. It would have the effect of turning slavery into a voluntary institution."

Remember also, Exodus 21:16 forbids kidnapping, thus a slave would have to be bought, per above, thus not against their will.
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@SkepticalOne

Do you think the standards of evidence in a court of law are too high? Would you be willing to be found guilty of murder based on anecdote, hearsay, or spectral evidence? No? Then why should we accept such a low standard for gods...something arguably more important if true?
It depends on what you are referencing.
This doesn't answer my question - what I am referencing is right there in the questions.
What, the law today, or the law of the ANE? I spoke of what the law required, as laid out by Simon Greenleaf, who wrote a treasise that is still in use today. He found that the testimony of the Evangelists would stand up in a court of law today. I think that if the evidence is circumstantial or non-conclusive, the charged person should be given the benefit of the doubt - innocent until proven guilty. I think that is a good standard. If the evidence is solid or if there are two or three credible witnesses I think the person should be charged.

I also explained to you and others that with the change of covenants came a change in the law. We, as Christians, are not under the OT law but under the grace of God.  

No, I would not want to be found guilty on anecdotal evidence or hearsay. I fail to see how that ties in with God. God has given all kinds of reasonable evidence, of which you are brushing off. I offered to debate you on the subject of prophecy, as to its reasonableness. That is just one of many strands of evidence in the Christian's arsenal.

Not only that, I will be glad to compare and contrast our two different worldviews, since you have stated once again you are an atheist. I actually initiated this thread for you. I am tired of hearing you and others charging Christians with believing a myth and standing in judgment of our belief when you can offer nothing BETTER.  

Again, if your proof for the Christian deity is built on the unreasonableness of all other positions, then there is no way you should have come to a conclusion.  It is simply not possible that you have evaluated all other positions.  Your reasoning is flawed and disingenuous.
I don't have to evaluate all possibilities on the impossibility of the contrary. 
Well, yah, actually you do.  If your view is that no other view is possible, then you necessarily need to know all other views.
You are being ridiculous. One object plus another object equals two objectives. 1+1=2. It does not equal something else. If Christianity is true then all other gods and religious beliefs (of which I include atheism as a belief) are false. It is as simple as that. But it is difficult to convince and unbeliever since they have invested their whole outlook on another system of thought. Therefore, I have challenged you, based on atheism, to show yours is more reasonable than my Christian belief in the area of morality, of which you have to date avoided doing. 

A single super complex "explanation" (that is 'beyond our comprehension') is not more simple than multiple sensible explanations.
How is that super complex? God!
God, by your own definition, is infinite.  That makes god as an explanation infinitely complex.  Occam's razor favors multiple explanations given that they are infinitely less complex.
You are confusing God as a person with God as an explanation. God as an explanation is simple.  

A subject can be an object? If a subject is the object in your objective morality...wouldn't that make your morality subjectivev?
I have already discussed this with you in previous posts on the other thread. This is a definist or equivocation fallacy. [...]

So, a subject is or isn't the basis of your objective morality?
How does 'subject' apply to God? I think you are confusing two different things, that a subjective being cannot be objective. Then how does God qualify? He knows all things. How would His knowledge be subjective? 


You demonstrate you do not understand atheism. For me, it is a derivation of evaluating my former beliefs and finding them wanting - not a starting place as you continue to assert. I don't reject gods as a possibility,
Not true, you do reject Him by looking at the universe in a solely mechanical or m[e]tho[do]logical naturalistic way. There is not supernatural consideration involved. 
Mythological naturalism? I think that would describe your view better than mine!
Forgive me, a spelling mistake. I meant methodological naturalism. Never heard of myological naturalism before, have you? You ascribed to the latter view as reasonable in a previous post. 

"Magic can explain anything and (because of this) nothing. That is the very reason why conclusions derived from methodological naturalism makes so much more sense." 

And are you once again suggesting my views are built upon myth, but not yours? 

It is your own black and white thinking that has you confused. You are conflating all gods as the one you believe in - I don't.
See above explanation. 

Also, if someone can define supernatural as something other than "unexplained by our current understanding of nature" and demonstrate it, I would accept it. Spend less time pigeonholing, and you might make some progress changing a mind...perhaps your own.
Are you saying that something supernatural is not personal, like a force of nature that contains no person? How would that be reasonable? Are are you thinking of a cosmic 'consciousness' that is not personal? How could that be thinking?  

I just don't view them as very probable given the sad state of evidence in their favor. I also don't discount the supernatural as a possibility, but until it can be demonstrated there is little reason to build it into an epistemology and/or a life philosophy. 
You keep saying that. Demonstrate is rather than assert it.

I've already stated what the evidence is "anecdote, hearsay, and spectral evidence".  This bring us back to the question you dodged: Would you be willing to be found guilty of murder based on anecdote, hearsay, or spectral evidence? If not, then you concede the point.
You will not accept the evidence. It is all around you. Creation speaks of the glory of God. Try and fathom how it can come about by something devoid of person. I challenge you to make a reasonable case, but first make a reasonable case that atheism is more reasonable than Christianity in obtaining moral values. 

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@PGA2.0

Yes, Israel experienced chattel slavery in Egypt.
Per the Bible, Israel experienced chattel slavery in Egypt.  This was never in contention.

No, He did not codify chattel slavery. He forbid Israel from practicing the same harsh treatment that Israel experienced in Egypt. 
The verses you provide taken alone might be used to support your interpretation, but this is very much cherry picking.  Consider other verses which show the God of the Bible does not consider other peoples equal to Israel.  (The notion of "God's chosen people" speaks to this)The verses I provided make that distinction clear (Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25:44-46). I could provide others, but I don't think you're open to that possibility.  Of course, if you are I can provide verses which may broaden your interpretation.

God orders the Israelites to make a distinction between the Hebrew servants and the those of foreign nations. They were:
·        Allowed to 'buy' (not take!) slaves from foreign nations around them...
·        Finally, it should be noted that the passage says that they "can" make them slaves for life--not that they "were automatically" slaves for life. Somehow, freedom was the default and lifetime slavery only an 'option'.

The Great Escape Clause…?
Deut 23.15 has this fascinating passage:
If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. 16 Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him. (Deut 23.15)...
"A slave could also be freed by running away. According to Deuteronomy, a runaway slave is not to be returned to its master. He should be sheltered if he wishes or allowed to go free, and he must not be taken advantage of (Deut 23:16-17). This provision is strikingly different from the laws of slavery in the surrounding nations and is explained as due to Israel's own history of slaves. It would have the effect of turning slavery into a voluntary institution."

Remember also, Exodus 21:16 forbids kidnapping, thus a slave would have to be bought, per above, thus not against their will.
The mental gymnastics here is impressive. 'Lifetime slavery is only an option' - who's option - the master or the slave.  (Hint - it's not the slave).  This alone is a concession that the Bible does codify slavery. 
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No, I would not want to be found guilty on anecdotal evidence or hearsay. I fail to see how that ties in with God.  God has given all kinds of reasonable evidence, of which you are brushing off. I offered to debate you on the subject of prophecy, as to its reasonableness.
Prophecy would fall under 'spectral evidence' which you've noticeably neglected to mention, but this too is not admissible in a court of law. Would you accept spectral evidence alone to convict you of a murder you haven't committed yet?  I seriously doubt it. It seems you understand the standard of evidence you're advocating is insufficient for a court of law which would certainly make it insufficient to 'convict' the Biblical god of existence.  Something to think about...

You are being ridiculous. One object plus another object equals two objectives. 1+1=2. It does not equal something else. If Christianity is true then all other gods and religious beliefs (of which I include atheism as a belief) are false. It is as simple as that. But it is difficult to convince and unbeliever since they have invested their whole outlook on another system of thought. Therefore, I have challenged you, based on atheism, to show yours is more reasonable than my Christian belief in the area of morality, of which you have to date avoided doing. 
In that case, your reasons for belief are not impossibility of the contrary. How can you argue impossibility of the contrary without evaluating the "contrary"? Aren't you just assuming the truth of your view without going through the standard you claim?

I provided a response to your challenge in post #238. 

You are confusing God as a person with God as an explanation. God as an explanation is simple.  
Nothing can be 'simpler' than an infinite being, amIright?!

How does 'subject' apply to God? I think you are confusing two different things, that a subjective being cannot be objective. Then how does God qualify? He knows all things. How would His knowledge be subjective? 
Is it your position an omniscient being is incapable of subjectivity? How would you square that with the Biblical god having a "chosen people"?! Also, if you're willing to admit a subjective being can be objective...then you provide all that is needed for morality without the need for a god.

Are you saying that something supernatural is not personal,
No. I'm saying all too often what cannot be explained by our current understanding of nature is considered supernatural or attributed to it.











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@SkepticalOne
Also, as related to this thread, atheism/theism are not moral philosophies
Good point.

However, I would suggest that starting with a "blank slate" is "more rational" than "adopting an existing dogma" when approaching the subject of "morality" (and while "theism" itself does not suggest a specific dogma, ANY theistic belief would be linked to dogma).
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@zedvictor4
That's one way of looking at things.
Yes, it is. 

I would suggest that humanity created gods, as a way of answering questions that couldn't be answered.
I agree with you, except for one, the biblical God. 

Two valid hypotheses, though I think that mine is somewhat more logical as it doesn't rely upon super-nature to answer unanswerable questions.
Alright then, nothing supernatural. What are you left with? 

Did the universe begin to exist, in your opinion? If so:

Is there intention behind the universe, or do you think there is nothing behind the universe, it is a self-creation in the sense that nothing existed and then something existed. Something came from nothing!!! Explain how this can happen if you believe it can. 

Next, if there is no intention then there is no purpose for the universe being here. Intention requires mindfulness. If there is no purpose why do we as human beings keep looking for it? Are we being consistent with such a universe as that? 

If there is no intention there is no meaning to the universe or behind it. Thus, there is nothing good or bad about anything ultimately. Thus, as an atheist you would be lying to yourself by acting as if there is. Sure you can make up meaning, but ultimately it means nothing. 

If there is no intention behind or to the universe then where do values come from? I'm talking about the ontology or origins of values from non-living matter. I am again speaking of the transition between non-life and life. How does that come about/happen? Where do you ever witness that coming about? It goes against our experience. Morality is not logical or consistent with an atheist worldview. 

Why do atheists seek meaning? Why do they understand information and order and detail and complexity that would have to come from chaos, in their worldview? Why would that happen? No reason, right? Reason requires mindfulness. Why is there uniformity of nature, these natural laws that keep sustaining the universe and things in the universe? Why are we able to do science in a universe that is operational by chance happenstance (no intent)?

Why do we discover (no intent) the laws of nature? These questions are usually left blank by atheists. Do you care to answer them, or should I expect the usual silence? 

How does an atheist worldview make sense of any of this? Why is it so inconsistent with its starting points? Why? Because it is an unreasonable system of thought. Its foundation is rotten. 

Also interesting that you attribute a god with a specific gender (him)....Men creating gods in their own image, for sure.
That is how the biblical God is revealed, in a masculine language that claims to be God's revelation to humanity. And it is reasonable to believe in this God for a number of reasons I have spoken of previously in other posts and on other threads, too. 
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@PGA2.0
If you believe in a kind loving God and your child dies of pediatric cancer, what are you left with?
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Sure you can make up meaning, but ultimately it means nothing. 

Yes, and....? So what?

Something came from nothing!!!
Or the stuff in the universe was always around in various forms, cycling from big bang to big crunch eternally. 

Next, if there is no intention then there is no purpose for the universe being here.
Again, so what?

Are we being consistent with such a universe as that? 
I've asked this like a million times: WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO BE "CONSISTENT" WITH THE UNIVERSE? The practical implication on every day life. I'll help: Person A is "consistent" with the universe, and therefore they can __________________, which person B, who is inconsistent with the universe, cannot. " Fill in the blank. 

Why do we discover (no intent) the laws of nature? These questions are usually left blank by atheists. Do you care to answer them, or should I expect the usual silence? 

I'll answer this one because it's easy: we're exceptionally good at spotting patterns., whether they're there or not. We're wrong as often as we're right. 
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@Stephen
Alternatively, you are having an imaginary conversation with your ultra ego because you are lonely. 
Why did "YHWH" create humans?

Slavery.
"there was not a man to till the ground."   Till = dig = mine.

A better question I have asked hundreds of theists, is why did god create anything, at all, in the first place? and like much of the bible, I have never had a answer that couldn't easily be debunked. 
For His pleasure. Because He wanted to, not because He had to.

So simply put then  we were created for his own self serving reasons as his toys or pets, to be discarded (killed and disposed of) at will as he could make more when he got fed up and bored with his old toys.  He certainly knew when to dispose of his childish things didn't he; anytime he felt like it.
No, we were created to experience a relationship with Him and learn of His love for us, that we may choose to love Him, yet we chose not to in Adam as our federal head, and we choose not to personally. Even though we have rejected God He has graciously revealed Himself to us and the problem our rejection has caused. We witness it everywhere - humanities inhumanity to each other because we think we know better. You think you know better. You, a limited, finite human being think you know yet when questioned you show how inconsistent in your thinking you are. 

Yes. He gave us extremely good examples of his behavior in stories such as that  of poor Job and his ten children where human life was, well, ten a penny.
Job understood the principle that you do not. He understands that God is the giver and taker of life. He understands that if God takes a life He can restore that life. We as Christians understand this principle. I understand that when an innocent human being is murdered, such as in the case of abortion, It is restored by God to a better place, within His loving presence. 

Job also understood that God is just. He understood that God would not do wrong, as did his friends, and that human beings are wicked and act wickedly when they live outside of God's good decrees and commandments. 

In an atheistic worldview, the atheist still has to account for evil. How do you do that as an atheist? Go ahead, explain how this is done. First, what is the standard by which you, as an atheist, judge evil? Can you answer that? I would like to tear it apart in its unreasonableness. You judge God on the standard He provided (the irony), but for you, where would such a standard originate from? You don't understand that as Creator He is not under the same standard you are, and I will explain what I mean. He says to you, "Thou shalt not steal." Can God steal? No, He created the universe and owns it. It is His right to do with it as He pleases, and He pleases to act according to His nature - justly. Would a good God allow evil to go unpunished? No, He would not be just if He did that. 

Marvelous isn't it, that the bible, as do apologist , give us 'reasons' why god destroys humans including children. But has only ever given one reason for the creation of the humans species;   "there was not a man to till the ground".  Genesis 2:5
God never takes an innocent life without restoring it, and it is the human who takes the life in his/her immorality, except in the case of natural disasters. 

Genesis 2:5, "But has only ever given one reason for the creation of the humans species..." What nonsense.

God created humanity for a relationship with them, made them in His image and likeness, just not to the limitlessness of His Being - reasoning beings who could know God - and enjoy Him forever. Adam chose not to cultivate this relationship in which God would teach him and guide him. God 'walked' with him in the Garden until the day evil was found in him (that is the day Adam chose to disobey God's good command). God's presence was with Adam until he sinned. Thus, the evil of humanity came about. Humans chose to live apart from God. Evil is living outside the light or God. Those who do not know God live in darkness, the darkness of their limited minds. 

IMO, you continue to show your lack of understanding of the biblical God in your ire and countless posts in which you collapse texts from the greater context, twist words, do not understand them in the light of the ANE culture and a host of other exegetical errors.
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A better question I have asked hundreds of theists, is why did god create anything, at all, in the first place? and like much of the bible, I have never had a answer that couldn't easily be debunked. 
[A] For His pleasure. Because He wanted to, not because He had to.

So simply put then  we were created for his own self serving reasons as his toys or pets, to be discarded (killed and disposed of) at will as he could make more when he got fed up and bored with his old toys.  He certainly knew when to dispose of his childish things didn't he; anytime he felt like it.
No, we were created to experience a relationship with Him and learn of His love for us, that we may choose to love Him,

 I just love how you have to further embellish your reply at [A] once it has been show to be absolutely ridiculous.

You simply cannot explain why god created anything at all can you? So you now have had to resort to injecting sentiment of  exaggerated, self-indulgent feelings of caring, tenderness and love, not realising he wouldn't have the need to bother at all had he not created anything.

I mean, how the hell was he ever getting on without us before all this creating of hell, Satan, deceiving serpents, angels, disobedient women, floods, destruction, war, murder, kings, queens, sacrifice, priests, other idols to worry about and be jealous of and not to mention the "other gods" also to be jealousy of that appear to have been "loved" instead of him.   However did he manage to occupied himself for all that time before we and this planet were even thought about and come into existence?

` Because he was bored stupid '   would have been a better reply. And just as easily been blown out of the water. 


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@Stephen
` Because he was bored stupid '   would have been a better reply.
Well stated.
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@FLRW
The morality of an action can be judged in accordance with Kant's distinction of treating a person as an end not as a mere means.
How do you "treat a person as an end"?
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@PGA2.0
Again, a megalomaniacal lunitic is not the biblical God.
Why did "YHWH" order the slaughter of prisoners (women and children)?

Numbers 31:15-18

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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@3RU7AL
Why did "YHWH" order the slaughter of prisoners (women and children)?

Numbers 31:15-18

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
I would bet fair money that the answer is focused on the kindness shown by god to let the Israelites keep the women children for themselves, rather than put them to death, too, and ignores the slaughter you refer to, because we simply don't understand the Ancient Near East culture, and how it was moral to kill prisoners, because what were you going to do with them? It would have actually been UNKIND to let them live! Again ignoring that these people (The slain and captured) were created by god specifcally NOT TO KNOW god so that the chosen people had someone to slaughter in a show of their devotion to him. Makes total sense when you look at it that way!

Either that or "Kill every woman that hath known a man" actually means to be overly kind to them, and that is the origin of the phrase kill them with kindness, according to some obscure 19th century Hebrew scholar.  
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@PGA2.0
That correct interpretation comes from finding the Author's meaning, not interjecting my own meaning into the text. 

Why do you think so many "christians" disagree with each other?
They do not try to understand what God is saying. Their bias, influence from others, and denominationalism gets in the way. His Word is our standard. 

It's because "human evaluation" and "human interpretation" is inescapable.
Even though I use my human filter - my mind - I try to get the Author's meaning. That is possible, so there is a correct INTERPRETATION. 
I'm not sure how your interpretation of "the Author's meaning" is "unfiltered" by your human perception.

Have you managed to distill any moral AXIOMS?
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@ludofl3x
...because we simply don't understand the Ancient Near East culture,
It seems like "objective morality" is functionally indistinguishable from "subjective morality".
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@SkepticalOne
Well let's look at the Yahweh's actions and pronouncements as described by the bible.

Commands, condones and commits genocide.
Nope, He brings judgment on the cultures that inhabited the Promised Land for their wickedness. He tells Israel to drive out these inhabitants that live there because these people's wicked values will corrupt Israel, and He wants His people to be pure and holy before Him so He can teach them in the way of righteousness. Since they did not listen to God that is in fact what the biblical narrative reveals, they become corrupted by these people groups and so often these people groups wanted to destroy them. That would prevent the coming of the Messiah, as promised. God would have been proven impotent by not being able to fulfill His promises. Thus, God will not let this happen. How could He compromise Himself? Even though Israel is constantly shown to be disobedient to God, He continues to preserve them instead of judge them, until their sin is heaped up to the limit. Then He brings judgment on them and disperses them for a time that they will learn a lesson, then He brings them back into the Promised Land until the fulness of time is reached for Him to reveal His Son, the Saviour.  

Holds people guilty until proven innocent (original sin).
God is omniscient, He knows all things. He knows that if it was you or me in the Garden we would have chosen to disobey God, just like Adam. With Adam came the corruption of what God created as good. Adam passed down his traits and influence to his progeny.  

Holds people guilty for crimes committed by other individuals (original sin).
Explained above. Adam was our federal head but we would have done the same thing. Knowledge without wisdom is evil and that is what happens when human beings choose their own way rather than what is good as revealed by God. 


Prefers rape of women to consensual sex between men.
Not true. This is a misrepresentation and a constant talking point of those who oppose and hate God.

Humans choose to rape. 

Condones the ownership of people as property in perpetuity including being granted as inheritance. 
Not the type of slavery that is inhumane. It is for the protection of the poor or those in debt, or, in the case of war, a war reparation for the damages done. With a foreign person, the person was bought with a price, for the Law forbid the kidnapping of anyone with the penalty of death. Thus, it had to be mutually agreeable. As with our employee/employer relationships, the ownership was one of advantage for both, unlike many ANE cultures. A 'slave' in Israel could own property and the 'property' clause was not like the intent witnessed in Egypt or North America, as I have pointed out with SkepticalOne. I have cited numerous passages where God commands Israel not to treat foreigners as they were treated in Egypt. I have shown that God requires of Israel and us to love our neighbour and not harm them. Thus, it could not be chattel slavery where there was mistreatment. And if the slave was mistreated I showed how in Israel there was an escape clause, as well as answerability to God for doing wrong in not loving others. As for discipline, there were consequences for wrongdoing, both for a 'slave' and owner/employer.

And what makes you think that your situation is much different from that of ancient Israel? As an employee, you AGREED to the conditions set forth by the employer. They own what you do while you are at work. You are their property while you are in their building. They have an obligation to protect you and you have an obligation to preform the duties required by the contract. They have the right to punish you for damages or wrongful actions, as stipulated in the contract you signed on commencement of employment. 

Commands Capitol punishment for many transgressions.
Teaching Israel the sacredness of the covenant they had agreed to.

Punishes the very best and most loyal of his servants just to prove a point to a third party (job).
Satan, in his wickedness wanted God to show him how loyal Job was, that given the circumstance Job would disavow God. He was sure of it. God said Job would not. The trials Job went through were rewarded with a double blessing after He demonstrated that he would not forsake God. That is a typology and spiritual lesson for us as Christians. Because of the unjustness of this world we, as Christians, will be treated poorly, persecuted. Our not giving up or denying Him results in our double blessing too.   

Murders children (the flood, the slaughter of many tribes in which the hebrews were commanded to kill all the livestock and babies) and even removes freewill (which I am unconvinced exists but since the biblical view of morality is predicated on choice this seems pretty telling) in order to justify killing more children (hardened Pharoah's heart so that he could kill the first born of Egypt).
I believe that free will was only present in Adam. He had the choice to sin or not to sin. Because we inherit and are influenced by Adam's choice we no longer have the option not to sin. We sin all the time, as we do not hold to the Ten Commandments. We steal, we lie, we harm our neighbours in all kinds of ways.

Don't get me wrong, it is not that we don't have a will a volition. It is that we choose to sin because of the corrupt nature we inherited in Adam. We desire things that are not right, not good. We continually see evil all around us and that influences us also. We like to do evil. It is our choice. We choose to commit adultery or lie to our fellow human beings. But there is an age of accountability, a point at which we are able to make these choices. But little children, I believe the Bible teaches, are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. He died to save them because they were not yet guilty of doing or practicing sin or understanding the difference. That is the difference between them and adults. Adults understand wrong and yet still do it. 

All of what I am saying here can be demonstrated through biblical passages. I am not taking the time to do so, but I can.  

Condemns people to infinite punishment for finite transgressions including such things as having a bad attitude when one says one of the names of Yahweh, falling in love with persons who have the wrong genitals, and being skeptical of a being who purposefully cloaks itself in mystery as some sort of test of faith (a questionable virtue hinestly).
Wrongdoing is not following what is right, what is good. Since God is pure and holy, He will not accept sinful beings in His presence except for judgment of their vile deeds. Although there are decrees of judgment those who do not want to accept God and His righteous decrees will be separated from His presence because a bad person, a bad apple, will contaminate the whole flock/batch, just as a little yeast spreads through the whole loft of bread. A righteous Judge will not allow evil or wrongdoing to go unpunished. What GOOD judge would do that? There is a penalty for sin (wrongdoing). It is separation from a pure and holy God. Heaven would not be good if we had a mass of people all doing their own thing. It would be just like what we witness here on earth. Now, God created humanity for eternity, to enjoy Him forever. So, when a human being rejects God he/she is separated from the presence of God forever. That would be hell, everyone doing whatever evil is in their heart to do. 

If this is your objective moral standard it isn't good enough to satisfy my moral intuition. If that is the behavior and decrees of a perfect moral being I have no interest in being moral whatsoever and instead intend to concentrate my efforts on human welfare and the betterment of quality of life.
Sure it is good enough. As an atheist how do they get to a standard that is anything but arbitrary and changing? How can good vary and fluctuate in respect to the same issue (and I picked abortion as an example in other posts)? How do we identify 'good' when two different people believe the opposite is the case? Who is right then? How does that make sense, two people with opposite views on the same thing both being right? How can it? 

If there is no ideal, no best, how is good determined? What best do you have to compare it to and how do you ever get better when the standard is always fluctuating. Better in relation to what??? So, demonstrate that atheism can logically make sense of goodness. Why is what you believe good? It is because you believe it? What about me who believes the opposition? Can't what I believe be good if everything is relative and subjective? No, it can't. Why? Because it goes against the laws of logic that you cannot contravene and still make sense of ANYTHING. So, you can be an atheist, but you can't be consistent and you can't be logical as to morality. Show me otherwise by providing something objective and universally true, by necessity. I do not believe you can without God.

Thus theism and Christianity are more reasonable than atheism in this aspect and others.  

It fails the test of livability. I do not want to "be next" under this system. 
No, you are wrong once again. I have given reasons why it does not and they are reasonable to believe. To get honest you would have to tackle all the points I have made and refute them as unreasonable. That means we have to delve deeper into morality and justice.
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@secularmerlin
If this is your objective moral standard it isn't good enough to satisfy my moral intuition. If that is the behavior and decrees of a perfect moral being I have no interest in being moral whatsoever and instead intend to concentrate my efforts on human welfare and the betterment of quality of life.
Well stated.
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Kant does offer alternative formulations of the categorical imperative, one of which appears to provide more substantial guidance than the formulation considered thus far. This formulation is: “So act that you treat humanity in your own person and in the person of everyone else always at the same time as an end and never merely as means.” The connection between this formulation and the first one is not entirely clear, but the idea seems to be that, in choosing for oneself, one treats oneself as an end; if, therefore, in accordance with the principle of universal law, one must choose so that all could choose similarly, one must treat everyone else as an end as well. Even if this is valid, however, the application of the principle raises further questions. What is it to treat someone merely as a means? Using a person as a slave is an obvious example; Kant, like Bentham, was making a stand against this kind of inequality while it still flourished as an institution in some parts of the world. But to condemn slavery one needs only to give equal weight to the interests of slaves, as utilitarians such as Bentham explicitly did. One may wonder, then, whether Kant’s principle offers any advantage over utilitarianism. Modern Kantians hold that it does, because they interpret it as denying the legitimacy of sacrificing the rights of one human being in order to benefit others.
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@secularmerlin
Is it okay to kill innocent unborn human beings because you don't want them?
Is it okay to violate my bodily autonomy and force me to donate my kidney to a dying human? Is refusing to donate my kidney the same as killing the human in question? 
What selfish thinking. What about the body of the unborn? What about harvesting its bodily parts? 

A kidney and a human being are two different things. The analogy you give sucks. What we are dealing with are TWO human beings, one unborn and the other born. What you propose to do with the unborn - kill it - you would not with a born human being. YOU do not treat all human beings equally. Those who support your ill-founded position suppress and descriminate a class of human beings, dehumanizing and demonizing them all for the sake of avoiding the responsibility of the woman. In around 99% of cases she chose to have sex, she chose to take the relationship to the level where engaging in sex could result in the creation of another human being. Then she wants to wash her hands of the situation because it is not convenient and a thousand other poor reasons to murder it. Very seldom is the position of taking the life of the unborn justifiable. 

So, you need to justify that human beings should not all be treated equally under the law. Are you willing to go there? Okay, you first. You should be the first to experience unequal treatment, should you not? Or can you not live with your own standard???
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The word "end" in this phrase has the same meaning as in the phrase "means to an end". The philosopher Immanuel Kant said that rational human beings should be treated as an end in themselves and not as a means to something else. The fact that we are human has value in itself.
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@secularmerlin
So it is about you! What is good is about you? Do you think your system of thought as an atheist is morally justifiable? If so, justify why your subjective opinion is better than mine and how you measure better when there is no fixed reference as a comparison???
Better is a subjective term. It is only useful if we first have a reference point. If the reference point is human welfare then I believe my view is "better" at promoting welfare. If the reference point is some possibly fictional god then until the god is demonstrate along with s ok me methodology for unambiguously (not subject to interpretation) determining the will of said god then even if it exists we are still all just guessing. If I understand your method properly it is very suspect specifically because it is subject to interpretation which allows subjective opinions to again enter the conversation.
How can it be better if it is subjective? Better in relation to what???

Well-being, in whose opinion?

Human welfare in whose opinion, the woman who kills her unborn human child? How is that well-being for the unborn? You selectively choose who you will apply wellbeing to. When food is short are you still going to be looking for the wellbeing of your neighbour? Look at the world around you and see how, in practicality or livability, this principle of wellbeing works in most countries of the world, especially socialist and communist atheistic states. 

You do not have what is necessary for the reference point if it is based on relative subjective opinion rather than an objective, omniscient, universally applicable, fixed, absolute reference point which is a being since morality is a mindful thing. As I said, why is your definition of goodness in the area of wellbeing the standard we all SHOULD believe?

And in an atheist system of ethics how do you cross the hurdle of non-living, non-conscious to living and conscious, the two things first needed for morality? There is a big gulf there that you cannot transverse for your system of thought again does not have what is necessary. 

As a biological machine that is determined by your environment, your genetic makeup, and other influencing factors, how is that good or bad? It is just whatever your genes are triggered to do. Some love their neighbours, others kill them. It depends on chance happenstance. It is what is, and how do you get an ought from an is? 
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@Tradesecret
just for the record - I am not an American. I am from the southern hemisphere. In the area known as Oceania. 
Thanks! I think you revealed this to me before. Sorry. Nevertheless, the example of America is one I think that most on this thread would relate to. 
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Well let's look at the Yahweh's actions and pronouncements as described by the bible.

Commands, condones and commits genocide.
Nope, He brings judgment on the cultures that inhabited the Promised Land for their wickedness. He tells Israel to drive out these inhabitants that live there because these people's wicked values will corrupt Israel, and He wants His people to be pure and holy before Him so He can teach them in the way of righteousness. Since they did not listen to God that is in fact what the biblical narrative reveals, they become corrupted by these people groups and so often these people groups wanted to destroy them. That would prevent the coming of the Messiah, as promised. God would have been proven impotent by not being able to fulfill His promises. Thus, God will not let this happen. How could He compromise Himself? Even though Israel is constantly shown to be disobedient to God, He continues to preserve them instead of judge them, until their sin is heaped up to the limit. Then He brings judgment on them and disperses them for a time that they will learn a lesson, then He brings them back into the Promised Land until the fulness of time is reached for Him to reveal His Son, the Saviour.  

Holds people guilty until proven innocent (original sin).
God is omniscient, He knows all things. He knows that if it was you or me in the Garden we would have chosen to disobey God, just like Adam. With Adam came the corruption of what God created as good. Adam passed down his traits and influence to his progeny.  

Holds people guilty for crimes committed by other individuals (original sin).
Explained above. Adam was our federal head but we would have done the same thing. Knowledge without wisdom is evil and that is what happens when human beings choose their own way rather than what is good as revealed by God. 


Prefers rape of women to consensual sex between men.
Not true. This is a misrepresentation and a constant talking point of those who oppose and hate God.

Humans choose to rape. 

Condones the ownership of people as property in perpetuity including being granted as inheritance. 
Not the type of slavery that is inhumane. It is for the protection of the poor or those in debt, or, in the case of war, a war reparation for the damages done. With a foreign person, the person was bought with a price, for the Law forbid the kidnapping of anyone with the penalty of death. Thus, it had to be mutually agreeable. As with our employee/employer relationships, the ownership was one of advantage for both, unlike many ANE cultures. A 'slave' in Israel could own property and the 'property' clause was not like the intent witnessed in Egypt or North America, as I have pointed out with SkepticalOne. I have cited numerous passages where God commands Israel not to treat foreigners as they were treated in Egypt. I have shown that God requires of Israel and us to love our neighbour and not harm them. Thus, it could not be chattel slavery where there was mistreatment. And if the slave was mistreated I showed how in Israel there was an escape clause, as well as answerability to God for doing wrong in not loving others. As for discipline, there were consequences for wrongdoing, both for a 'slave' and owner/employer.

And what makes you think that your situation is much different from that of ancient Israel? As an employee, you AGREED to the conditions set forth by the employer. They own what you do while you are at work. You are their property while you are in their building. They have an obligation to protect you and you have an obligation to preform the duties required by the contract. They have the right to punish you for damages or wrongful actions, as stipulated in the contract you signed on commencement of employment. 

Commands Capitol punishment for many transgressions.
Teaching Israel the sacredness of the covenant they had agreed to.

Punishes the very best and most loyal of his servants just to prove a point to a third party (job).
Satan, in his wickedness wanted God to show him how loyal Job was, that given the circumstance Job would disavow God. He was sure of it. God said Job would not. The trials Job went through were rewarded with a double blessing after He demonstrated that he would not forsake God. That is a typology and spiritual lesson for us as Christians. Because of the unjustness of this world we, as Christians, will be treated poorly, persecuted. Our not giving up or denying Him results in our double blessing too.   

Murders children (the flood, the slaughter of many tribes in which the hebrews were commanded to kill all the livestock and babies) and even removes freewill (which I am unconvinced exists but since the biblical view of morality is predicated on choice this seems pretty telling) in order to justify killing more children (hardened Pharoah's heart so that he could kill the first born of Egypt).
I believe that free will was only present in Adam. He had the choice to sin or not to sin. Because we inherit and are influenced by Adam's choice we no longer have the option not to sin. We sin all the time, as we do not hold to the Ten Commandments. We steal, we lie, we harm our neighbours in all kinds of ways.

Don't get me wrong, it is not that we don't have a will a volition. It is that we choose to sin because of the corrupt nature we inherited in Adam. We desire things that are not right, not good. We continually see evil all around us and that influences us also. We like to do evil. It is our choice. We choose to commit adultery or lie to our fellow human beings. But there is an age of accountability, a point at which we are able to make these choices. But little children, I believe the Bible teaches, are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. He died to save them because they were not yet guilty of doing or practicing sin or understanding the difference. That is the difference between them and adults. Adults understand wrong and yet still do it. 

All of what I am saying here can be demonstrated through biblical passages. I am not taking the time to do so, but I can.  

Condemns people to infinite punishment for finite transgressions including such things as having a bad attitude when one says one of the names of Yahweh, falling in love with persons who have the wrong genitals, and being skeptical of a being who purposefully cloaks itself in mystery as some sort of test of faith (a questionable virtue hinestly).
Wrongdoing is not following what is right, what is good. Since God is pure and holy, He will not accept sinful beings in His presence except for judgment of their vile deeds. Although there are decrees of judgment those who do not want to accept God and His righteous decrees will be separated from His presence because a bad person, a bad apple, will contaminate the whole flock/batch, just as a little yeast spreads through the whole loft of bread. A righteous Judge will not allow evil or wrongdoing to go unpunished. What GOOD judge would do that? There is a penalty for sin (wrongdoing). It is separation from a pure and holy God. Heaven would not be good if we had a mass of people all doing their own thing. It would be just like what we witness here on earth. Now, God created humanity for eternity, to enjoy Him forever. So, when a human being rejects God he/she is separated from the presence of God forever. That would be hell, everyone doing whatever evil is in their heart to do. 

If this is your objective moral standard it isn't good enough to satisfy my moral intuition. If that is the behavior and decrees of a perfect moral being I have no interest in being moral whatsoever and instead intend to concentrate my efforts on human welfare and the betterment of quality of life.
Sure it is good enough. As an atheist how do they get to a standard that is anything but arbitrary and changing? How can good vary and fluctuate in respect to the same issue (and I picked abortion as an example in other posts)? How do we identify 'good' when two different people believe the opposite is the case? Who is right then? How does that make sense, two people with opposite views on the same thing both being right? How can it? 

If there is no ideal, no best, how is good determined? What best do you have to compare it to and how do you ever get better when the standard is always fluctuating. Better in relation to what??? So, demonstrate that atheism can logically make sense of goodness. Why is what you believe good? It is because you believe it? What about me who believes the opposition? Can't what I believe be good if everything is relative and subjective? No, it can't. Why? Because it goes against the laws of logic that you cannot contravene and still make sense of ANYTHING. So, you can be an atheist, but you can't be consistent and you can't be logical as to morality. Show me otherwise by providing something objective and universally true, by necessity. I do not believe you can without God.

Thus theism and Christianity are more reasonable than atheism in this aspect and others.  

It fails the test of livability. I do not want to "be next" under this system. 
No, you are wrong once again. I have given reasons why it does not and they are reasonable to believe. To get honest you would have to tackle all the points I have made and refute them as unreasonable. That means we have to delve deeper into morality and justice.
Too many bald assertions to address individual. Even if I accept that some version of the Yahweh must necessarily exist you have not actually demonstrated or even suggested some methodology that takes the guess work out of understanding the primary moral axioms of the Yahweh. 
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@zedvictor4
Not all human beings are treated with equality and dignity.
Nope, never have been and will not be for the foreseeable future.
So, it should not bother you if you are being consistent with atheism in which the universe is a meaningless mass of matter. It would be inconsistent with your starting point, and you would, as an atheist, be borrowing from a different worldview (one I might add that is consistent with morality and has what is necessary for morality).

When you say, 'never has been' why would you expect anything better? Freedom is only as far away as the next vote or the next dictator.   

And neither the bible nor the U.S. actually promotes such morals. 
Wrong. There is no free man nor slave, no female of male but all are one in Jesus Christ. The biblical teaching promotes loving others and looking out for their best interests. 

Altruistic lip service in the pursuit of wealth and power is typically human, hypocrisy. 
Definitely demonstrated by your Democrat party. There is something dreadfully wrong with people who vote for those who are trying to undermine your freedoms with such lies and deception as to gain power at all costs, IMO. Definitely Machiavellian. 

When people adopt a system that cannot justify itself what would you expect but hypocrisy and selfishness? 
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I believe that free will was only present in Adam. 
Then no other humans are really making choices including the "choice" to believe or reject. If I am flawed by design take it up with the manufacturer. 
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The analogy you give sucks. What we are dealing with are TWO human beings, one unborn and the other born.
In my analogy we are dealing with two human beings. Both have already been born. Does that make them intrinsically less worthwhile? If my body could save a man and I refuse is that immoral? What if he is a father with children that need him? What if he is a doctor or the leader of an important peace movement? Should my body be under the control of the state in cases where I could save a life even at risk to my own?

Also I am not convinced that a fetus is necessarily a human being in the sense that it is an individual with emotions and thoughts (and therefore at least arguably deserving of rights) but really that is beside the point when you demand that legislation be passed which removes my bodily autonomy. 
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@FLRW
The word "end" in this phrase has the same meaning as in the phrase "means to an end". The philosopher Immanuel Kant said that rational human beings should be treated as an end in themselves and not as a means to something else. The fact that we are human has value in itself.
So a human should be treated as a GOAL.

Please provide a practical example of how this might be accomplished.
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...denying the legitimacy of sacrificing the rights of one human being in order to benefit others.
I agree 100% with this part.