Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?

Author: PGA2.0

Posts

Total: 1,638
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@SkepticalOne
My core position is simple and unchanging: there is no right to use the body of another without consent. Also, I don't determine anything from an "atheistic framework" Atheism is not a moral philosophy.
Well stated.
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Thank you!
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
The biblical God is reveled as three distinct Persons.

Yes, now  commonly known as Dissociative identity disorder (DID), previously known as multiple personality disorder (MPD), is a mental disorder characterized by the maintenance of at least two distinct and relatively enduring personality states.
I have no idea what you are asserting here. It is lacking in any proof, just hearsay. If you want to give evidence present a couple of biblical proofs and don't link wars me (i.e., I don't want to have to read through fifty pages of linked material trying to find out what your point is). However, I do understand that you have a particular bias and crusade against Christianity, judging from you perhaps fifty threads, many of which work on isolating biblical context, and I have pointed that out before.    


Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,616
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
However, I do understand that you have a particular bias and crusade against Christianity,

 More the scriptures than Christianity per se.     Although, Christianity and not necessarily the New Testament has been the cause of many millions innocent deaths.  Matthew Hopkins leaps to mind as do the Salem witch trials , and the burning alive of the Templars, to mention a few. Then there is the massacre of the Cathars and on and on you maniacs go and  all in the name of Christianity, where as Jesus preached exactly the opposite and to  love thy neighbour, give to the poor .

judging from you perhaps fifty threads, many of which work on isolating biblical context,

Only fifty???? I better get my finger out.  There is much work to do.


It is lacking in any proof, just hearsay

 You have never read the bible then I take  it particularly the Old Testament. . Why doesn't that surprise me.  Most of you bible thumpers rarely do read it for yourselves.. 




 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL

Or to you think everything you do is determined and you have no will at all but are just a robot programmed by your genetic makup and chance happenstance.
i hesitate to make broad statements here, but some seem to be suggesting that nobody is arguing that a human decision is free from all previous influences. i think this is a fair statement. the best attempts at explaining free-will seem to suggest that there is some kind of influence-gap. that is to say, it has been suggested that a human decision is influenced up to some unknown point less than 100% and then there is some i-gap of unspecified quantity and free-will lives there spreading magic fairy dust, however small or improbable that i-gap might be. i have never heard anyone propose a way to measure this i-gap in order to perhaps somehow gauge how much free-will someone might have, or to figure out if children have it, and if not, when do they get it? the i-gap sounds to me more like an ignorance-of-influence gap (this would also seem like the compatibilist's opinion). if this is the case we should be able to dial up free-will by dialing up ignorance.

the main problems i see with this proposal are as follows:

1) there is no way to measure the influence-gap. it is in all likelihood merely a knowledge-of-influence-gap or lack-of-precision-gap.

2) even if the influence-gap is considered to be a real thing, wouldn't that gap simply increase the value of the other influences? how could the influence gap possibly be considered an influence? it's a gap that is by definition non-influential.

3) let's consider based on at least a small shred of logic, what could be in that pesky i-gap that might actually be an influence. well, whatever is in that i-gap can't be influenced since it is inside something defined as an influence-gap. so maybe there's an uninfluenced-influence in that i-gap; we could call it something mysterious like, an uncaused-cause, or maybe a first-cause, or better yet ex-nihilo. could that uncaused-cause be influenced or originated by anything at all? no, of course not because it's in the i-gap and it is defined as being uncaused. so could a human take credit for a decision or action that emerged from the i-gap? how could they possibly take credit or be responsible for something they had no conceivable control over? anything emerging from the i-gap would be indistinguishable from a random event. and randomness is incompatible with choice.

4) but what if it's the essence of "me" that is in the i-gap. are you kidding me?! i don't care if it's your grandmother, your dead child, or your ever lovin' god. if you put them in the i-gap they are at-best indistinguishable from random noise and at worst non-existent.

5) what if the gap is not an influence-gap but instead a black box? if the gap is not an influence-gap, there is no place for mr. free-will to spread his magic fairy dust because the gap instantly fills with influence and is then no longer properly described as a gap. additionally if the output of the i-gap is non-random, that is to say it emits some identifiable pattern, then whatever is happening in the i-gap must have some way of knowing what the hell is going on outside of the i-gap and this knowledge is definitely influencing its output thereby introducing influence into the i-gap which would then promptly disappear in a cute little puff of logic...

....obviously george is constrained by the parameters of his confinement and is therefore incapable of offering any advice that would be requested from him.

the same would be true if you put jesus, or krishna, or a unicorn, or any conceivable entity or event in the modified i-gap.

ipso-facto, no free-will.
I found this post particularly difficult to understand with your concept of "kind of influence-gap," or "i-gap." 

That influence we were/are all under, after the Fall, per the Bible, was/is sin. You can't escape the influence of evil because of one man's choice. 

Adam had free will. He was the only person who could choose to sin or not sin, other than Jesus Christ. Adam was commanded by God what he was not to do. Eve was told by Satan the opposite of what God commanded Adam not to do.

God --> Do not eat of the Tree...
Satan --> Eat of the Tree... 

When Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge his mind was opened to the idea of evil. He discovered what it was to do wrong. Since he disobeyed God, God left him to his own ways instead of being there to guide him. Thus, from Adam onwards we are influenced by evil, not having the good input of God to guide us. We reject God because we think we know better or because we want to do our own thing. We have been influenced by evil and we like it until it starts to harm us. The NT describes our sinful nature as a 'natural man' someone 'in the flesh,' or 'natural person.' We lost our spiritual connection with God in the Fall. It is only renewed in the Second Adam - Jesus Christ. Thus, you have a particular bias against God. Ephesians calls it being dead to God because of our sins.

And [a]you [b]were dead [c]in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the [d]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the [e]sons of disobedience. 3 Among them [f]we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, [g]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [h]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [i]in our wrongdoings, made us alive together [j]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 






PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Very revealing. It does not matter to you that innocent human beings are killed.
I'm pretty sure "it doesn't matter" how OLD the innocent human being is.
Then you should be adamantly against abortion. Are you?

Is it a "greater" crime to kill a one year old than an infant?
No, that is my point. The unborn are just as human as the older infant or one-year-old. 

Is it a "greater" crime to kill a citizen than a non-citizen?
No.

And if you think "it matters", please explain your reasoning.
I think it matters greatly that ALL human beings are treated equally. Once you start discriminating against one group or another of innocent human beings you are not being just and it leads to great inhumanity and dehumanization. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@PGA2.0
Once you start discriminating against one group or another of innocent human beings you are not being just and it leads to great inhumanity and dehumanization. 
So if for example the rules governing the ownership of, protection under the law for and killing of hebrews verses non hebrews then they are an unjust foundation?
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Let me get this straight, in 99% of cases sex is consensual.
I'm going to guess you're counting COERCION as "consensual".
Consent meaning agreed upon by both parties. You can't have consent if only one agrees to something. I thought that would be obvious. I do not discount that there might be badgering or persuading in a lot of cases, usually by the male, to have sex. I am excluding rape or forcing the woman to have sex as being consensual. Rape is a very small percentage of the total pregnancy numbers. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
So, even though she is partly responsible for creating this human being, it is made up or carries half her DNA
Perhaps she should only be allowed to deport the half that matches her DNA.
I don't find that amusing. You could not do that without killing the unborn who is a unique being in its own right.
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
...she should be allowed to kill another human being because she no longer wants to take responsibility?
It's a lot like people who are deported back into hostile territory after fleeing for their lives.
I believe you are not being serious about what the unborn is. Let me ask you again - Is it okay to kill innocent human beings? Can you answer that simple question? Stop skirting the issue. 

Is deportation "murder" when it directly leads to someone's death?
Again, you are changing the subject. It is called deflecting. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
If she no longer wants her one month old newborn and it is using her milk and her breasts, on your thinking she should be allowed to kill it too. 
Deport, abandon, relinquish care of.
So, are you proposing a different standard for different groups of human beings? Is your position that you can kill some innocent human beings while you are not allowed to kill others?  


Also, a fetus is NOT a legal entity (not a legal person, no birth-certificate) and cannot therefore be considered a victim (so there's a slight difference between your two examples).
What kind of "entity" is the fetus? Is it illegal to have a fetus? Just because someone (a human being) does not have a birth-certificate does that make them any less human? Because they are not "in the world" yet, does that exclude them from being a human being who deserves human rights? (Be careful here)

If I was never issued a birth certificate would that give you the right to kill me? You would obviously not consider me a victim if someone murdered me. 

So you are discriminating against some innocent human beings because of their development??? Would it be okay to discriminate against you if your IQ was not as great as another? How about discrimination against a female toddler or infant because she is not as developed physically as a grown-up woman?  


secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@PGA2.0
Is it okay to kill innocent human beings? 
Doesn't original sin (as per your argument) guarantee that there are no innocent human beings? Perhaps it would simplify things if we simply eliminate the word innocent. That would leave us with the revised question "is it ok to kill human beings?" Now this still doesn't get to the core of what is and is not a human being (or more to the point a person which is perhaps a more important distinction) but I am interested to know how you will answer this revised question. Is it ok to kill humans?
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Okay ?
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Now to the moral aspect. Do you believe that all humans should be treated equally under the law? If not, would you mind is you were discriminated against and dehumanized, considered worthless, a piece of trash, by those who make the law?
Are you personally outraged by the treatment of immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers?
I believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect. It depends on the circumstances as to whether they stay or not. I do not believe someone who sneaks into a country illegally who is sex trafficking or a gang member should be allowed in. I do not believe we should be obligated to support mass illegal immigration. I believe all immigration should be legal unless in times of great persecution or warfare. 

Do you believe someone who chooses your home to squat in without your permission should be allowed to stay? Now multiply that by ten or twenty people. Then on top of that make it that you are responsible for their education, food, medical treatment, and full rights to vote in the elections of your country if they are not a legal immigrant. (Communism at its best!) Now add in the factor of a violent or selfish person who wants what you have as their own. Where do you draw the line on accountability? 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Would you consider that just, if only the elites decide for the rest of us who lives and who dies?
You are describing historical reality.
Yes, it does fit nicely into human history. Now, do you think it is just?
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Is it " okay " to,  ATTEMPT to kill someone ?
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
What's Attempt. 
And then,  
Levels of attempt.

PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
If not, then why are you doing this to the most vulnerable among us?
The most vulnerable are the poor, the homeless and the desperate and forgotten prisoners.
The most helpless are the unborn. They rely totally on the mother. They are also the most discriminated against and most put to death unjustly, in the billions (1.6 since 1980). 

While I oppose unjust incarceration crime and injustice should be punished. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
- and see how you feel as they take your life in the same manner they would the unborn, sucking and tearing apart your body, or injecting poison into it, or the chemical burn to kill you. Do you want to feel that? Do you think others should be permitted to do that to you as a human being? 
Are you a vegetarian?
No. What does that have to do with abortion?

Are you?
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
If you live in an area that I control (the woman controls the unborn in the womb) do you think I should be able to choose whether you live or die?
Do you believe deportation is a crime?
It depends on the situation but by-in-large - no. 

Would you expel a criminal from your house?

Do you believe that someone who enters your house illegally should be permitted to stay, that you have no say, while you feed them, pay for their education, look after their medical expenses, and then feed and support their family also, once they find out how generous you are (and they are MS 13 gang members too who traffic drugs and feed them to your family members!!!)?
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Or if your new born crawls onto my property, should I be allowed to kill it, because it did not know what it was doing and because I had signs posted, "Tresspassers will be shot on sight."
Do you believe "trespassers can be shot on sight" generally?
No. 

I believe you have a right to defend your home from those who wish to do you and/or your family harm. Trespassers usually fit that category of wishing to harm you in some way. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
People are routinely deported with zero regard for their life or general well-being.
I don't follow your meaning.
Does it bother you when people die after being deported?
Yes. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Nihilism demolishes morality.
Nihilism is impossible.
I agree, in practice, it cannot be lived. 

Any human stripped of all motive would necessarily be non-functional.


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
And if there is sone all powerful all knowing being that cares about justice why doesn't he just make everything just?
Because you are on the earth for a purpose, to know your God or reject Him.
Oh good, so now that you "know GOD" you're done?  You've accomplished your purpose?
(And enjoy Him forever!)

No, God has a further purpose for me. Knowing Him is the beginning of my journey.
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
The Bible tells the believer that there is great reward for someone who willingly gives their life's on behalf of others.
If people follow you out of fear, they are SLAVES.
First off, let us get straight who is spoken of here - God. God is the greatest. 

If they follow out of love, that is Christianity. Perfect love casts out fear. 

If people follow you for reward, they are MERCENARIES.
If they follow God there is a great reward that we should not be ashamed of. Your eternal life is at stake. Is there no concern there?

If people follow you out of love and mutual respect, they are PARTNERS.
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
2. The percentage of pregnancies that are life-threatening is minimal (probably around 99% non life-threatening). So, while there are risks those risks are not usually life-threatening. 
Every day, roughly 10,000 babies are born in the United States, and about a third of them are born via Cesarean section.
And how many women die in those 10,000 deliveries by cesarean?

Because of cesarean birth, the danger of death is greatly reduced. 

So, maybe 66% non life-threatening?
See my comment above.
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
3. When the woman's life is threatened (extreme danger that she will lose it) an abortion is permissible if the unborn is too young and not at the point of viability to save it also.  
Which law of "YHWH" (specifically) allows for this (seemingly arbitrary) exception?
It is common sense that if both your life and the life of your unborn are threatened and the unborn is too undeveloped to survive then it is permissible to save yourself. There are clauses in the Mosaic law for manslaughter (believe it or not, sanctuary cities).

Eg.

Cities of Refuge ] The cities which you shall give to the Levites shall be the six cities of refuge, which you shall provide for the one who commits manslaughter to flee to; and in addition to them you shall give forty-two cities.

then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, so that the one who commits manslaughter by killing a person unintentionally may flee there.

The cities shall serve you as a refuge from the avenger, so that the one who commits manslaughter does not die until he stands before the congregation for trial.

And the congregation shall save the one who committed manslaughter from the hand of the blood avenger, and the congregation shall return him to his city of refuge to which he fled; and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil.


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
I have denied from the start that biblical slavery is the same as chattel slavery.
The rules for FOREIGN SLAVES specify perpetual ownership and ownership of the children of your slaves and ownership of the grandchildren of your slaves.
Any nation that went to war with Israel would pay a price and be responsible for reparations. It is a shadow, typology, or representation of our life apart from God for we are a slave to whatever has control over us. Only in Jesus are we free.  

There is the case of foreign slavery to secure a better life too. 

The rules change if one converts to faith or flees. They become free. 

The rules for ISRAELITE SERVANTS is only slightly more palatable (and would still not be acceptable practice in modern times).
I have explained many times by now how such servitude was usually because of debts owed. In the seventh year, the debt was considered paid in full. Thus, it was for the purpose of helping the poor and less fortunate. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
And there were reasons for some of the 613 Mosaic laws that do not apply today to our cultures, but the principles or lessons are still valid.
If the law of "YHWH" has changed, or "does not apply today", then how can you insist it is "universal" and "unchanging" and or "objective"?
Both covenants contain the Ten Commandments of which Jesus summed up in two - love God and love your neighbour. The 613 Mosaic laws were instituted for the people of Israel and they agreed to them. There was a purpose for these laws, and they are met for the NT believer in Jesus Christ. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Are you suggesting that each person who "knows Christ" is suddenly qualified to abandon the letter of the law and because they found Christ, they just "know" what is morally "right" in their heart?
What I am saying is the Jesus Christ has fulfilled the laws (every letter) of God on behalf of the believer. It does not, therefore, depend on what we do but on what He has done in regards to our salvation and right standing before God. If we could (had the ability) achieve a right standing before God on our own merit and ability we would not need a Saviour. We still know what is right and wrong and we are compelled to live in love, which fulfills the Ten Commandments. We don't seek to do wrong and when we do we have the Advocate, our High Priest, who always lives to intercede for us. Not only this, God gives the true believer a new heart towards Him, that we can understand the deeper things of God. A changed heart has as its goal to seek Him out and put Him before ourselves.