Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?

Author: PGA2.0

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#391
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@PGA2.0
The Bible tells the believer that there is great reward for someone who willingly gives their life's on behalf of others.
If people follow you out of fear, they are SLAVES.

If people follow you for reward, they are MERCENARIES.

If people follow you out of love and mutual respect, they are PARTNERS.
#392
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2. The percentage of pregnancies that are life-threatening is minimal (probably around 99% non life-threatening). So, while there are risks those risks are not usually life-threatening. 
Every day, roughly 10,000 babies are born in the United States, and about a third of them are born via Cesarean section.

So, maybe 66% non life-threatening?
#393
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3. When the woman's life is threatened (extreme danger that she will lose it) an abortion is permissible if the unborn is too young and not at the point of viability to save it also.   
Which law of "YHWH" (specifically) allows for this (seemingly arbitrary) exception?
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#394
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The law was instituted for Israel yet we recognize its goodness too.
Do you agree with the Orthodox Jewish legal tradition/interpretations?
Do you mean the OT law? I agree that the law is just. And there were reasons for some of the 613 Mosaic laws that do not apply today to our cultures, but the principles or lessons are still valid. Some of the interpretations of Rabbis, I have heard, are in doubt as to the law just like Jesus showed the teaching of the Scribes and Pharisees were in error. That is why we have the written standard of God's word as our reference. We are told God's Spirit teaches us the greater things of God, which I believe happens over time as we mature in His grace.

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

When Paul wrote that to Timothy a large portion of the Scripture Timothy would have had access to was the OT. 
#395
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I have denied from the start that biblical slavery is the same as chattel slavery.
The rules for FOREIGN SLAVES specify perpetual ownership and ownership of the children of your slaves and ownership of the grandchildren of your slaves.

The rules for ISRAELITE SERVANTS is only slightly more palatable (and would still not be acceptable practice in modern times).
#396
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And there were reasons for some of the 613 Mosaic laws that do not apply today to our cultures, but the principles or lessons are still valid.
If the law of "YHWH" has changed, or "does not apply today", then how can you insist it is "universal" and "unchanging" and or "objective"?
#397
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There is nothing about nihilism that makes rational sense. It is stupid.

It is the doctrine of negation. It even negates itself. It is The truth that there is no truth!

Atheism in the truest sense of the word is nihilism. That is why atheism is stupid.

In practice, nihilism usually ends up as idolatry of the self. If there is no God, then I am God!

The philosophers of the 19th century understood this very well. The only reason why today this has been made more obscure is because the spirit of the age that we are living in is a nihilistic one. What once was mostly confined to academic circles has found its way to the common man. We are living in an age of anti intellectualism and pseudo intellectualism. Because the nihilistic spirit has been now found its way to the common every day person, the common every day person is incapable of identifying it. If the common person knew the enemy that was plaguing it, there would be some way of combatting. Because the name of this demon is not known, it cannot be cast out.

The name of this demon is nihilism. It is the thief that has come to kill, steal, and destroy. Like any competent thief, it uses the cover of obscurity to mask its activities. 

The end goal of this spirit? Destroy everything, reduce it all to rubble. Kill every monarch, topple every order, abolish all tradition, make man equal to beast, reduce everything to dust. 

It is the spirit of anti-Christ.



#398
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Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Are you suggesting that each person who "knows Christ" is suddenly qualified to abandon the letter of the law and because they found Christ, they just "know" what is morally "right" in their heart?
#399
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In practice, nihilism usually ends up as idolatry of the self.
There is no nihilism "in practice".

The only way to "practice" nihilism is to stop breathing.
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#400
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Show me you have a fixed standard that is objective or don't call what you believe moral.
I point you to the Ten Commandments. That is the standard from which we derive many other laws for the principles focus on love for God and love for neighbour. We are not showing love when we harm our neighbours. But what does that mean outside of a fixed, final standard or measure? It would be relative and subjective. Because of that such a system of thought is incapable of providing a fixed and necessary standard. Remember, I have asked SkepticalOne to provide one since he stated he has one. I am still waiting.

I can only point you to what is necessary for morality and ask you if your system of thought has what is necessary. That is how I show you, by making you think of what is required for morality.  

Do you cut your hair according to Levitical law? [**]
No, I am not an OT priest or OT believer. I live by a new covenant, the one Jesus Christ secured by His blood sacrifice. 

Are you careful to not wear clothes made of mixed fibers? [**]

I'm not detecting any UNCHANGING moral guidelines in the teachings of "YHWH".
Those principles, while good, are dealing with the circumstances of the ANE and what it meant for ISRAEL who lived under the Mosaic Law to live holy live's before God. As in my last post, the OT was a tutor or school teacher to lead us to a greater truth - Jesus Christ and what He has done for the believer in meeting the righteous requirements of the Law of Moses. God made a covenant with a specific people at Sinai and they agreed to follow that covenant. We, as Christians live under a new covenant with God, different in some aspects from the Mosaic laws. 
#401
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I know plenty of nihilists who have their life set on auto destruct. I even know one guy who claims that nihilism saved his life! His face and body is covered in cheap tattoos, he drinks and does drugs all day. He sleeps outside and fornicates with anything that has legs. 

There is nothing rational about nihilism. It is fundamentally an irrational spirit. Self deification is the natural hubris that results from this. Sure, so is suicide. There are a lot of ways to commit suicide.

Quickly

Slowly

But then there are those who also want to take everyone down with them.

The people under the ingluence of this spirit are unaware that they are possessed.
#402
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I even know one guy who claims that nihilism saved his life! His face and body is covered in cheap tattoos, he drinks and does drugs all day. He sleeps outside and fornicates with anything that has legs. 
That's a hedonist, NOT a nihilist.
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#403
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@FLRW
My cats and dogs are atheists and they seem pretty happy. They seem pretty moral to each other also.
And when was the last conversation you had with them on moral justice in the cat and dog community? How much have they pondered the idea of justice among cats and dogs? What do they think about the subject of capital punishment? What are their favourite books to read? What have they written on the subject that expresses their instincts are anything more than that? And when was the last time you caught your dogs playing the piano? Did you scold them for missing a note? Have they reasoned lately to you about their thoughts on God? Did they express why they rejected Him? 
#404
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The people under the ingluence of this spirit are unaware that they are possessed.
Has your account been hacked?

You seem slightly less chipper than I remember.
#405
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How much have they pondered the idea of justice among cats and dogs?
Are you suggesting that moral instinct is only accessible to the intellectually curious and capable?
#406
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We are not showing love when we harm our neighbours.
What does your law say is appropriate if your neighbor is threatening you and or your family?

What does your law say is appropriate if your neighbor is storing hazardous material on the edge of your property?

What does your law say is appropriate if your neighbor's dog eats several of your chickens?

Sure, I "love" them, but in a real-world-practical-actionable sense, how does that apply?
#407
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I am serene, at peace. I am content where I am at. I like being in a monastery. I have been given this last opportunity to speak about some things that are very serious. In all truth, there probably isn't much time left. Would I waste this time joking around? This isn't the time for relationship building. There isn't time. I am here to give warning. I am here to witness.

Where does hedonism come from? Idolatry. Nihilism can quite naturally lead to hedonism. There are many expressions of self idolatry, some more bestial than others.

I did not make up the phrase, "If there is no God, then I am God!". The philosophers of the 19th century understood this.



#408
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It is immoral because if offends the righteousness of God. 
This is an unclear standard. Please either offer a reliable metric for determining why things or offensive in this manner or I will be forced to conclude that you are using a standard which yo uh do not actually understand which is not helpful to the conversation. 

I can simply say that anything which offends Betty White is immoral but without some way of determining why something would be offensive to her (Betty White's primary moral axioms) this gives us no actionable data and we are right back to having to rely on our own moral intuition to determine what is and is not offensive to Betty White.
Do you want to live as if there is such a fixed standard
Things are not true or false according to my whims. I have no choice but to believe there is no standard unless some  useful standard can be offered. Any discussion of whether this standard is objective of course would be entirely seperate.
The thing is we are moral agents but how did we become such agents? 
That we evolved the sensibility is a sufficient explanation and the process of evolution (including behavioral evolution) is observable so that is a more reasonable hypothesis than any hypothesis which includes an undemonstrable explanation even if that explanation would be sufficient. 
Morality is based on His (the Yahweh's) nature. 
Great how do we determine his nature? If we examine the source material (the bible) the Yahweh appears to be a cruel, capricious, jealous, vengeful, genocidal, egomaniacal maniac whose ten most important rules deal mostly with his own vanity and do not address rape or owning people as property at all and elsewhere in the book deals with these issues very unsatisfactorilly.
He commands that we do not kill
Except when he commands that we do.
The 613 Mosaic laws feed off the Ten Commandments and give us feedback as how the commanments work in specific situations that applied to the ANE culture. 
You mean like the ones in leviticus detailing the way in which one goes about owning a human being as property in perpetuity and can then pass them down to one's children as inheritance? I feel like the system you are using fails the livability test. I do not want to be next under this system and I don't think you would either if you gave it a little honest reflection but hey to each his own and if you are willing to be owned by master and obey him even if he is cruel and to give him the right to beat you as long as you don't die within a few days then I suppose to each their own.
There is a difference between free will and no will. You still have a will to choose. 
How do you justify hairsplitting between these two concepts? It seems like you want to have your cale and eat it to (freedom to choose but no freewill).
#409
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Very revealing. It does not matter to you that innocent human beings are killed. Would it matter to you if someone chose to kill your innocent ten-year-old? If so, then you have a double-standard and you are not consistent. Consistency is a sign or indicator that something is dreadfully wrong with your logic. 
Very revealing. It does not matter to you that innocent human beings are allowed to die for the want of a kidney. Would it matter to you if someone chose to allow your innocent ten-year-old die rather than donate a kidney? If so, then you have a double-standard and you are not consistent. Consistency is a sign or indicator that something is dreadfully wrong with your logic.  
#410
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But you (plus those who make the laws) can tell me that all human life is not equal,
Incorrect. All humans have equal right to usurp my bodily autonomy and personal sovereignty for their own benefit.
#411
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Nihilism can quite naturally lead to hedonism.
No it can't.

Nihilism leads to nothing.
#412
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I can simply say that anything which offends Betty White is immoral but without some way of determining why something would be offensive to her (Betty White's primary moral axioms) this gives us no actionable data and we are right back to having to rely on our own moral intuition to determine what is and is not offensive to Betty White.
Well stated.
#413
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We, as Christians live under a new covenant with God, different in some aspects from the Mosaic laws. 
Which specific laws were carried over (unchanged) and which were not?
#414
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A life centered around the indulgence of fleeting passion is the life of a nobody.
#415
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@3RU7AL
If there is no God, then I am God!

Self worship can take the form of hedonism to someone whose consciousness is centered around sensual pleasure.

Being possessed by a nihilistic spirit is not the same thing as knowingly professing nihilism as a worldview. Most people do not profess nihilism as a worldview, the influence is more subtle. It can take the form of absurdism. That is, since life has no intrinsic meaning, I make my own meaning in life. 

Truth is relative. That is the nihilistic spirit. It's all arbitrary. The embrace of arbitrariness is a natural expression of self worship. The deification of one's will.

In the end? Yes, it leads to nothing. If there is no Ultimate Reality, nothing is ultimately real. Nothing matters. Nothing has meaning. When this spirit has influence over a person, it naturally takes the fear of God out of them. As the.fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom, to have no fear of God is to embrace foolishness.

To those with eyes to see, the insanity of the current age is apparent. 
#416
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A life centered around the indulgence of fleeting passion is the life of a nobody.
Isn't life itself a "fleeting passion"?
#417
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I have denied from the start that biblical slavery is the same as chattel slavery.
Yea, well, you're just wrong, and you squash your own denial when you argue for forced slavery for the purpose of conversion. I mean, seriously, if it's forced it can't be indentured servitude. 
#418
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The deification of one's will.
Did your will choose to embrace GOD($)?
#419
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@SkepticalOne
"Indentured servitude" was only for fellow Israelites.

"Permanent multi-generational ownership" was "reserved" for the foreign-born-slaves.
#420
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@3RU7AL
Agreed. I've pointed that out to PGA, but he continues to ignore. I thought pointing out how his own arguments don't mesh with indentured servitude might be a better approach.