I am being banned over pure lies.

Author: RationalMadman

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Barney
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@Lunatic
I have seen you (ragnar) slide into forums where things have been ridiculously reported and I can practically see you rolling your eyes at the report. I'll link this as an example since I used it earlier: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4154-someone-is-secretly-admiring-me-on-dart?page=4&post_number=97. That is to say I think you agree with me in general that you don't want to over-moderate.
Correct. While I don't think there should be zero moderation, not every statement someone disagrees with need be reported.


there are too many moderators
We usually use this to lessen punishments, by deflecting off people with cooler heads at any given time. Still, good to know the perception is bad.

Not sure the best way to handle it. The reason for vote and forum moderators, is to make it less of a burnout job, and to pass things on to people with less investment in any feud.


if you can amount a hundred small offenses to equal a huge one, it's easy to justify a ban on someone like RM by dismissing him as "always just being a problem".
I can admit that is the slippery slope we're on. I stand by bans being about patterns more often than a single insult or whatever (with a few exceptions where it was particularly excessive), but we do need checks and balances to keep it from getting out of control (or reigning it into control if already out of control).


1. Go down to 1 moderator
2. Use a lot more discretion in both banning, and choosing ban lengths. 
Ironically, part 1 is something RM has repeatedly suggested (himself as site moderator), but the opposite of part 2 (well he would probably call it the ultimate discretion, but I you get the idea). ... This has continued even after removing the disagreeable no insults rule from the CoC.


I have a general feeling that I can't speak the same way that I did on debate.org, without consequence. That freedom of speech was one of the biggest attractors on that site for me.
I've put some hard work into getting the CoC to be less restrictive on that, but if you say it's a fear, it's clearly not enough yet.


 I want to say "Your wrong douchebag, and here's why your f'ing wrong" without being blocked by that user. Then later I can re-read that post realize I was a douche, and re-evaluate my opinion in a way I couldn't if a restraining order or something was placed on me and that individual barring him from letting me see and reflect further on his opinions.
I admit my one big complaint about DDO's moderation was that Restraining Orders were nearly impossible to get (the one time I got one, I gently called out the person for violating it, and quickly heard from a mod how me asking them to honor it was itself the true violation of it). At the same time, I had no qualms about losing a member for refusing to make them be given out like candy. They remain a bit of a last resort.

Anyway, thank you for all the feedback!
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@Barney
Correct. While I don't think there should be zero moderation, not every statement someone disagrees with need be reported.
Agreed

Not sure the best way to handle it. The reason for vote and forum moderators, is to make it less of a burnout job, and to pass things on to people with less investment in any feud.
I was more referring to the main moderators, I can get behind delegating for the debates and voting. Even Airmax did that

I can admit that is the slippery slope we're on. I stand by bans being about patterns more often than a single insult or whatever (with a few exceptions where it was particularly excessive), but we do need checks and balances to keep it from getting out of control (or reigning it into control if already out of control).
Well we can kinda of narrow the discussion here for repeat "offenders" to the length of the ban I suppose.  Imabench can correct me here if he feels inclined, but even though his bans were copious, I don't think he often if ever had bans last longer than a week did he?  When you get into the realm of "month" long bans, to me it just starts feeling unnecessarily long for a site that needs patreon donations to survive hosting fees. And again I think as long as it doesnt get into doxxing territory too often, some of the drama is healthy and good. Promotes activity. Why deny the site that for 1-2 months? 

Ironically, part 1 is something RM has repeatedly suggested (himself as site moderator), but the opposite of part 2 (well he would probably call it the ultimate discretion, but I you get the idea). ... This has continued even after removing the disagreeable no insults rule from the CoC.

Hmm, does it being Ironic that RM kind of agrees mean you dis-agree? What's your take?

I've put some hard work into getting the CoC to be less restrictive on that, but if you say it's a fear, it's clearly not enough yet.
I am definitely not implying blame on you, and from what I've seen you are actively trying to loosen some of the rules. That was why I framed the original question the way I did. If your simply following guidelines of the CoC that's one thing. Mostly curious as to how much you can be discretionary about the CoC though in regards to examples of supa situation. Just because something is hard written in the rules doesn't mean you can't say "Yeah I think that punishment might not exactly fit the crime in this context" and bend the rules towards leniency here.

I admit my one big complaint about DDO's moderation was that Restraining Orders were nearly impossible to get (the one time I got one, I gently called out the person for violating it, and quickly heard from a mod how me asking them to honor it was itself the true violation of it). At the same time, I had no qualms about losing a member for refusing to make them be given out like candy. They remain a bit of a last resort.

Anyway, thank you for all the feedback!
I appreciate you considering what I've had to say, and hope I haven't given the impression I am bashing moderation. I still view it all as a new operation and I definitely don't know that I would be any better. Obviously it's easier to be in the peanut gallery back seat driving, but it seems like in general you see things similar. I am mostly focused on length of bans. Also I am not sure I entirely agree with the "boiling point" argument. If this RM situation is a culmination of a lot of things, but only boiled over because of the Mikal argument the other day, I wonder what would have happened if we let that thread continue. I mean they don't like each other, but they do seem to have some monicker of respect for the other now after some discussion today. Makes the banning decision feel a little hazier now to me.
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@Lunatic
Ironically, part 1 is something RM has repeatedly suggested (himself as site moderator), but the opposite of part 2 (well he would probably call it the ultimate discretion, but I you get the idea). ... This has continued even after removing the disagreeable no insults rule from the CoC.
Hmm, does it being Ironic that RM kind of agrees mean you dis-agree? What's your take?
RM is good at spotting suspicious activity and time investment, but he desires things to be absolutely strict. In short, I believe he would ban people constantly for things which do not even border on CoC violations.

That said, I've had to take away the report button from a couple of users, and RM is not among them. 


supa situation. Just because something is hard written in the rules doesn't mean you can't say "Yeah I think that punishment might not exactly fit the crime in this context" and bend the rules towards leniency here.
If I recall correctly, Supa's ban was longer than it otherwise would have been, due to repeated warnings, and serving as discord mod (whatever title or non-title that has) so being held to a higher standard.


I wonder what would have happened if we let that thread continue. I mean they don't like each other, but they do seem to have some monicker of respect for the other now after some discussion today. Makes the banning decision feel a little hazier now to me.
It's a weird one, as without the wake up call of moderation action, I doubt there would be said progress. At the same time, with that progress (particularly the apologies), the length now seems non-ideal.
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@bmdrocks21
It is. He had admitted it before, when he swore off the website. However, that might have just been a ploy to get the 25 likes achievement.
yea dude remember when i pinged everyone on the site for that xD.

good times
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@Vader
If I ever become mod. I am doing a mass reform of banning. While I think 2 months is actually adequate IMO, there are some rules in the CoC I’d change
Anyone can start a petition to get the CoC changed. When I did a MEEP about it, I tried to get as much community feedback as possible before starting voting. What further changes do you have in mind?
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can someone catch me up on whats going on rn? 
Vader
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@Barney
I agree. But it might be more difficult for a typical user to push through depending on the circumstances. 
Lunatic
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So RM isn't getting banned anymore right?
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@skittlez09
RM will be getting banned temporarily due to numerous CoC violations, but RM is having a fit over it 
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RM is good at spotting suspicious activity and time investment, but he desires things to be absolutely strict. In short, I believe he would ban people constantly for things which do not even border on CoC violations.

That said, I've had to take away the report button from a couple of users, and RM is not among them. 

Confused as to how we got off the 1 moderator subject, I was asking if you dis-agreed with it lol. Kind of went on a tangent here.

If I recall correctly, Supa's ban was longer than it otherwise would have been, due to repeated warnings, and serving as discord mod (whatever title or non-title that has) so being held to a higher standard.
I distinctly remember supadudz complaining that he got no warning but maybe he told me wrong.

It's a weird one, as without the wake up call of moderation action, I doubt there would be said progress. At the same time, with that progress (particularly the apologies), the length now seems non-ideal.

Outside of the length issue, the whole ban feels kind of weightless if I am being truthful. I've gone over all the reasons... Just doesn't feel that good of a ban if I am being honest. I read every single charge off to airmax this morning and we were talking about it, and even he seemed confused as to why RM is actually being banned here. I tried explaining to him your 1000 bee stings analogy and he didn't really get behind it either. 

I think the ban is a mistake in general. Your welcome to do as you wish, but I'd honestly consider letting this one go lol
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@Barney
forgot to tag
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@MisterChris
RM will be getting banned temporarily due to numerous CoC violations, but RM is having a fit over it 
The CoC violations ragnar pointed out seem either outdated or long enough ago that they shouldn't have any bearing on todays ban. 
RationalMadman
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I will just say this. Posts made mocking me, celebrating my ban, relishing in my helpless position are all noted. I do not forget. When I inevitably am the rightful ruler of this place, those that wronged me will pay the price. That is not a threat or implied anything. 

When I run this place, Christopher and Ragnar will have much to answer for. Virtuoso is not clear on his position on my ban but let's see what he twists or stays true to. I will not die quietly if they want to silence me they should just do it, just ban me and stop pretending they are concerned with justice. Snakes, the lot of them, yet this rat is turning into a mongoose to their cobra antics.

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First week on the site, I was banned forever,
Before CoC, it was 'madman's back never',
But I planned for every possible avenue that ever could come so these haters of mine clammed together held hands in terror 'cause instead o' cowering in a corner, I came back wiser, better,
Stronger, fed up of every bitch and fella' who dared look at me the wrong way, bsh1 banned me one too many times, one slip of the tongue and it's bam; dilemma,
I even defended him as he tried to stand against the oncoming tsunami but even a genius like me cannot plan the weather,
So I welcome Virtuoso, I had backed him forever, he knew he could rely on me; RM's stone-cold don't serve no one's agenda,
You try bribe me, I snitch, you blackmail me, forget it I got contingency plans and when hell's raining down I am the umbrella,
Who in the hell thought that the very enemy of mine would be the only one to stand up to be a real G in this debator's ghetto; Hamburgler saved Madman, oh what a fiesta up in this favela,
Ragnar you thought you had a sure shot, but come suck on this glitch; your system's got an error.
V for victorious, vigilant, valiant madman who's gon' return with a vicious vendetta.



Crocodile
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An end of a era.

for a month
Intelligence_06
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So long.


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@RationalMadman
For when you return.  I've extended you a hand of friendship many times, and each time you come back with some demeaning insult, but I stay civil with you regardless. And now you want to act like everybody has backstabbed you for paying attention to your clear CoC violations? It's impossible to backstab someone who never took the olive branch to begin with.

To quote from a previous post of mine:
Seriously, does every interaction I have with you have to be in the form of passive aggressiveness? I've never treated you with contempt. Show me some respect, and I'll continue to do the same. 
You are throwing a tantrum like a child. Your actions have come back to bite you and yet you blame everyone but yourself.

Maybe try and follow the same rules you want to enforce ruthlessly upon others, and you will not get banned. 
We've been much too lenient with you, giving you all kinds of excuses because "he's RM." But there is a breaking point and you hit it. 

For the record, I helped LOWER your ban time. You're totally nuts. Period.
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RM is the Schumacher of this site. He sometimes plays dirty tricks, but that doesn't stop him from being one of the greatest here.
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@Intelligence_06
If you were to change "sometimes" to "often" then I'd fully agree with you. In terms of contribution he's outdone us all, but that does not get rid of the bad. Just makes it hurt a bit less
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the last time he got banned, the site activity dropped pretty hard so well see
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@Dr.Franklin
Even a star quarterback can be suspended.
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@Barney
thats true
Intelligence_06
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This is what RM said last year. Let's just see how quickly RM changed sides.

We need Virtuoso to be the head mod and to let members like myself become the new co-mod. I don't care if Bsh1 still remains in the team or not, he is not too terrible and not too great.
When Bsh1 was the head mod he said this. Now this is happening I won't even be suprised if not over 5 months later he will say he wants to be the dictator of this site.
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@Intelligence_06
He's always said he wanted to be a mod of the site. Don't we all to some extent?
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@Vader
I can see that you will in not to long become the forum mod, if you are still active that is.
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@Intelligence_06
I wouldn't count on me being a forum mod. I think the mods are heading in the direction of less moderators

If I do get offered that spot. I'd happily take it

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i wouldnt want to be a mod
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@Dr.Franklin
Me neither. 
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@Vader
It is highly possible since you frequent the forums and drafterman is less than active.
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@Intelligence_06
Well I thank you for your recommendation