POLITICAL POLL #1: BLM

Author: MisterChris
Politics
BLM

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Total: 40
#31
oromagi
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@MisterChris
I don't buy the premise that Black Lives Matter's goal is the advancement of Black communities.  BLM's stated goal is far narrower than that:

"We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise."

You call SAFETY an advancement in position for the black community but in our democracy, safety from government violence is an inalienable right enjoyed by all regardless of skin color, recognized by the American people as inherent to every American citizen at birth. 

Before Black Lives Matter, US citizens were getting killed by police at increasing rate in spite of historic decreases in violent crime overall as well as decreased violence against police.  After Black Lives Matter began to organize protests in 2014 and as a direct result of those protests, the Federal Govt was exposed as failing in its responsibilities for police oversight and accountability, the US Dept of Justice dramatically tripled its annual estimates of police violence and at least 7 major crowd-sourced databases were created to further ensure government accuracy in future reports.  In the three full reporting years since, the number of killings by police has leveled off.  Black Lives Matter improved the condition of American Democracy (and thereby,  American society) by providing a necessary check on and accounting for violence by state actors in the absence of sufficient checks and accurate accounting by the state itself.

Generally, I think concern about socioeconomic POSITION of communities divided by skin color is a Republican perspective entirely out of accord with the national mood and modern interpretation of American democracy.  Yes, such concern is also reflected in the traditional politics of Black communities (NAACP=National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, for example) but my understanding is that BLM rejects such anachronisms (Black or White)  as  "narrow nationalism." The present theory is that if government would only apply justice equally to all Americans and demonstrate far less favor towards the rich than the corrupt present paradigm, Americans will handle their own advancement and according to more various concerns than mere socioeconomic position.


#32
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@oromagi
safety from government violence is an inalienable right enjoyed by all regardless of skin color, recognized by the American people as inherent to every American citizen at birth. 
thus the 2a
Before Black Lives Matter, US citizens were getting killed by police at increasing rate
proof?  I believe the fbi stats don't support your claims


The present theory is that if government would only apply justice equally to all Americans and demonstrate far less favor towards the rich than the corrupt present paradigm, Americans will handle their own advancement and according to more various concerns than mere socioeconomic position.
100% agree


#33
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@TheDredPriateRoberts

Before Black Lives Matter, US citizens were getting killed by police at increasing rate
proof?  I believe the fbi stats don't support your claims
#34
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@oromagi
that doesn't show that because of blm in 2014 that lowered those numbers, that apparently isn't available.
#35
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@MisterChris
Yes, it already has. BLM is nothing more or less than a natural evolution of the original Civil Rights Movement back in the day that made things better for minorities (predominantly focused on the black race but if you actually look at what they enabled, the voting literacy tests being made easier and eventually abolished made it easier for anyone struggling, who had not had the best education, to gain the right to actually vote).

BLM is about making law enforcement at all stages (arrest, conviction, sentence alleviation vs harshness, forgiveness post-release) fairer on those that have been objectively proven to be suffering from a bias against them at each and every stage of the justice-enforcement process. Does this mean that every cop, judge, CO etc is corrupt? Of course not. No BLM protester thinks that even if they say it in hyperbole. The problem is that the 'good guys' among law enforcement are facing stonewall corruption that they cannot possibly overcome as an individual. 

When you say 'all lives matter' in return, you just don't know wtf you're talking about. Of course BLM thinks all lives matter, what are you actually suggesting? BLM is not a black supremacist movement, it is a civil rights movement. Once you understand that, it's very clear what type of people work against it; corrupt or fooled ones.
#36
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The list of white victims BLM fights for is nonexistent.
#37
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@Greyparrot
Actually all poor white people who suffer under how brutal the legal system of US is on the poor, benefit from any and all changes that BLM push through in terms of increasing the quality of public defenders etc.

The BLM concept is only focused on blacks because they happen to be by and large the poorest ethnicity in the US. BLM is also getting support from outside of US in other countries that want to see equal treatment between poor and rich in the justice system, it's just that in nations that are social democracies the gap is smaller (but still exists and this is still not perfect in any social democracy yet).

The problem is that being a lawyer is seen as a capitalist-friendly profession. The fact that people genuinely believe that with more money, you deserve to have better legal representation is sickening. Even if I was the filthiest rich person on the planet, I would agree with this (and hypocritically benefit from it while still agreeing to it).
#38
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
-> @oromagi
that doesn't show that because of blm in 2014 that lowered those numbers, that apparently isn't available.
  • No, but that's not what you asked for.  You asked for proof that police killings were up before 2014.  I gave you FBI UCR for 2009-13. 
  • Nobody has claimed that BLM lowered those police killings after 2014. 
  • I stated that after 2014 the FBI stats got more honest about the number of police killings
    • Here's a 538 report about those numbers.
  • I stated that "in the three full reporting years since, the number of killings by police has leveled off."
    • The source you provided (WashPo) documents my claim well enough:
      • "By the end of 2015, officers had fatally shot nearly 1,000 people, twice as many as ever documented in one year by the federal government. the next year, however, police nationwide again shot and killed nearly 1,000 people. Then they fatally shot about the same number in 2017 — and have done so for every year after that, according to The Post’s ongoing count. Since 2015, police have shot and killed 5,400 people."
        • That is also my claim: after 2014, police killings leveled off.
  • Get it?  It's not that the cops suddenly killed twice (actually triple if we accept the BJS high end estimate) as many people in 2015, its that the FBI worked much harder to report a real number.  Its that BLM protests created pressure that revealed among other things that at least the majority of all police killings weren't getting reported to the main police shooting database. 


#39
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Nope, BLM has been compromised a long time back. Imagine thinking you're a grassroots movement when you're being bankrolled by the elitist of elites and big corporations. 
#40
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@oromagi
hmm that's interesting, I would have thought after Rodney King those riots would have had an effect.