That which is good for existing businesses or wealthy is not necessarily good for the economy or society at large.
If left wing economics are bad, why are blue states the economic powerhouses?
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Could this not just be because they appeal to the states with the big cities?
(BTW I like a lot of left wing economic policies, I think progressive tax brackets and immigration are good for example. My main problem is when they support universally despised policies like rent control or the Bernie Sanders wing arguing against free trade.)
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@Trent0405
Well yeah. Both the left and right "agendas" are just generalizations with lots of individual disagreements within. Youll never agree with it 100% just like its unlikely youll agree with anyone 100%.
But overall. The left package is clearly better based on results.
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@Nemiroff
But overall. The left package is clearly better based on results.
I think I agree with this, depends on how left and right are being defined.
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@Nemiroff
People are leaving New York and the Blue States around it. Illinois is drowning in debt. California continues to thrive because of the variety of goods they produce due to geographic location and size, but if they keep going the way of Illinois and New York, they will also go down the toilet.
Why are blue states the economic powerhouses?
This is a little misleading. It assumes money is the best indicator of "power house".
For example, most new couples do not want to raise their families in our typical economic power houses.
We can have cultural powerhouses, religious powerhouses, low crime powerhouses, average income powerhouses, drug free powerhouses and even baby friendly powerhouses. None if the aforementioned powerhouses are blue states.
Blue states that are economic powerhouses have the benefit of large land masses, and easy access to low income workers. It has very little to do with blue or red.
But even by economic power, if you adjust for land size and population, red states are the true economic powerhouses. People don't know this, but red states have a higher average standard of living than blue states. California is an economic powerhouse, but do people want to live there? California's population is falling rapidly, so is the population of most other blue states.
So your question assumes an untruth. In the real world, right wing policies are better economically AND culturally. US population demographics is proving this true as we speak.
cities
full stop/end of discussion
plus wealth? oh well, i would much rather preserve the soul of this country rather than upping "muh GDP" for terrible changes
also, the cost of living is up, there isnt much simple living in democratic areas
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@ethang5
@Dr.Franklin
As much as the live shows, museums, thriving arts scenes, and 5 star dining of cities are cultural negatives, this is a discussion of economic policy and effectiveness. Hence why i specified Economic powerhouse, which yes, depends largely on money. Having a strong economy doesnt mean weak culture, as you clearly have no defense for economic "pro business" right wing policies, would you care to conceed the point so we can compare cultural and soul achievements.
also all states are mostly rural, and alot more suburbs than cities. Theres plenty of small town culture if that is your way. California is major agriculture producer and that has nothing to do with cities, but it does have alot to do with economic policy. And cost of living = how much people are willing to pay to live there = how much they want to live there. It can turn into a problem, but it is problem of too much success. Nothing to be ashamed of.
So regarding economic policy, all agreement left wins?
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@Mharman
You say debt is a bad thing, but the right tends to praise the free market and every successful complany from apple to Pepsi is loaded in debt.
Its called an investment, and if you can take a low interest loan to invest in your people or economy thats a successful strategy.
California is massive but most states are the size of European nations. They got enough sIze to make a working formula work. These are not reasons, they are excuses.
Despite high taxes, most wealthy person wants to live in new york or cali... kinda throws a monkey wrench in the whole "taxes will scare away the rich" claim.
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@Nemiroff
I would suggest that debt is relative more so to the distribution of wealth rather than the creation of wealth.
Though aside from that... When I see debates such as this, I always think that it begs the question....Are the United States of America, really United.
It's the same here in the U.K......People tend to think it's better to be a part of something smaller.....Until such times, when they realise it's safer to be a part of something bigger, of course.
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@zedvictor4
Certainly, the successful capitalism leads to increased inequality, which is why policies such as increasing wages are being pushed in those very same areas.
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@Nemiroff
These same states are the ones that are having issues with police brutality.
These states were originally red in their founding, but the urban wave came and changed them blue. California is the biggest state in the Union and could be it's own country alone. That's one of the 2 real powerhouse state I see.
These states were originally red in their founding, but the urban wave came and changed them blue. California is the biggest state in the Union and could be it's own country alone. That's one of the 2 real powerhouse state I see.
Illinois is a corrupt, tax ridden state on the decline. They are losing more population than gaining.
Minnesota has a broken police system and has issues with their leaders.
I don't see how the NE can have any influence
Minnesota has a broken police system and has issues with their leaders.
I don't see how the NE can have any influence
The only true power states that are blue are California, New York, and Virginia.
Virginia isn't even truly blue. Hillary won because of Tim Kaine. She was losing for most of the race but made a comeback
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Let's look at Red Power States
Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania
Oh not to mention the counties in plain fields are the ones that provide us with food to eat. That's a huge necessity.
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@Nemiroff
again, america has changed and cities are a schowcase for it
economics absolutely has an affect on culture, when everything is about pumping up the GDP, cultural changes happen
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@Dr.Franklin
So your claiming that left wing policies are all about pumping up gdp? Like minimum wage laws and commerical regulations? I love how the right flips their position on a dime.
I dont agree that blue states somehow have worse culture and you have provided no argument to defend that random claim. Regardless, it is irrelevant to the point. Successful economies and thriving cultures often to hand in hand.
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@Vader
Of the blue powerhouses, cali and new york are the 2 biggest in the nation. Why havent their restrictive regulations and high taxes not scared off every millionaire and entrepreneur?
Im not saying democrats dont have corruption, im saying their economic policies are superior.
Every human institution of considerable size has greedy people within it. Considering how cozy the right is with the oil lobby, the military industrial complex, and corporate interests will you agree both parties are equally corrupt?
Im examining policy; once we agree on what to do, we can work on properly doing it and getting rid of the corruption. But whats the point of arguing about how to get there when we dont even know where we are going?
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@Nemiroff
blue states have terrible culture, aborton and no consequnece free lives
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@Dr.Franklin
Wtf does abortion and consequence free lifestyles have to do with culture?
If we are comparing culture, we are talking about art, music, philosophy, the exchange of ideas and expressions.... your just talking about having traditional values. Sure red states are more conservative, thats the definition sherlock. That has nothing to do with culture.
You just dont like blue state culture, which is your opinion, and not something i care about. And i maintain democrat superiority on economic policy.
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@Dr.Franklin
@Nemiroff
What the hell would a consequence free life be?.......Sort of death really.
And I would suggest that all States are both Blue and Red, but to varying degrees.
Or is it a Red consequence that individual lives are of no consequence?.....If so, why the big abortion thing?
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@zedvictor4
I have no idea about the consequence free life, i was simply repeating franklins words back to him while pointing out that his points are completely irrelevant to my economic argument.
Yes the broader blue red divide is far more complicated than state by state, but the economic policy is not. The party in charge of the capital has outsized influence on the policy direction of the state, thus red districts in a blue state often have higher taxes and more regulations than red districts in red states... and these policies prove benefitial to the economy.
Thus modern american left wing economic policies are superior.
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@Nemiroff
Just want to say I respect you a lot for asking this. It's so accurate they have literally no comeback.
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@Nemiroff
Private businesses don't have an effect on the way states lean. These rich companies can live in high tax states without worry due to their empire. It is worse to live in a state like Illinois, where they have the highest sale tax, and are the worse state to live in for taxes according to various assessments.
California can be a country it's so powerful and are generally more liberal. They revolutionized progressivism and they fed off that to lure people. Their wealth was built up from lassiez fair policies when forming.
California can be a country it's so powerful and are generally more liberal. They revolutionized progressivism and they fed off that to lure people. Their wealth was built up from lassiez fair policies when forming.
New York has always been a powerhouse no matter where they flip. It's a capitalism run city and it barely matters. The only reason why states lean blue is urbanization?
And talking about economic opportunities, I'd to recall the party that oppressed black people from becoming wealthy Jim Crow laws and enslaved them for 200 years. Oh yeah. Democrats.
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@zedvictor4
abortion is big because of no consequcne life
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@Nemiroff
what you descrobed was culture
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@Vader
And talking about economic opportunities, I'd to recall the party that oppressed black people from becoming wealthy Jim Crow laws and enslaved them for 200 years. Oh yeah. Democrats.
You're forgetting the fact that Democrats and Republicans switched sides.
The left control the cities, and cities produce mad money compared to the rural regions of a country. It's why Flanders has a higher standard of living than Walloon, even though Flanders is red pilled by comparison.
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@Dr.Franklin
Abortion is big because of no consequence life.
Well, I suppose that's a reasonably logical philosophy, though somewhat nihilistic.
12 days later
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@Nemiroff
So regarding economic policy, all agreement left wins?
Sure, if we pull the usual leftist ploy of ignoring reality.
In reality, blue states have greater income disparity, an over all lower standard of living, and more crime than red states. Quality of life is not determined by capital alone.
The fascinating thing is, the left will try their insipid economic policies, watch them fail over and over, and never get the connection between their economic model and the failure of their economies. Watching them is like watching a sheep repeatedly get snagged trying to run with a rope around it's neck and never figure out that its the rope snagging them.
Cali is not a "powerhouse" because of leftist economic policies, but because they get cheap labor from mexico. Same way the US became rich on slave labor.
Personally, I am in favor of all the blue states enacting every loony leftist economic policy, from the green new deal, to abolishing the police, to socialism. Nothing teaches liberals better and faster than empty bellies and empty pockets.
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@ethang5
You only say that though, because you're a biased righty and resent what you consider to be a biased lefty....And biased lefties think the same of the righties....When in fact you are all the same, barring a few genetic tweeks.
And the U.S. currently has a $26trillion national debt, is that economically powerful?.....To be honest I wouldn't know.....Though if I was in debt I wouldn't feel economically powerful.
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@zedvictor4
I mean, economic powerhouses on the west coast didn't go there for the high taxes. They got subsidies like every other big corporate political donor.
The left talks up a good game about taxing the rich, but the actual economic policies are far from that.
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@zedvictor4
You only say that though, because you're a biased righty and resent what you consider to be a biased lefty....
Yet I have objective facts to back up my position. Lefties rely on feelings.
It is an objective fact that all over the world, countries with leftist policies are failing or have failed economically. In the US, cities and States with leftist policies have failed and are in dire economic trouble. A simple logical evaluation of leftist policies will tell you that leftist policies are logically incoherent. You have to ignore historical reality to claim it's only bias.
And the U.S. currently has a $26trillion national debt, is that economically powerful?.
No. And it proves my point. Most of that debt is due to moron liberals wanting the government to foot the bill for every loony idea that comes to their minds, paying for illegal immigrants, chain immigration, subsidized abortions, pay for NOT working, free needles to crackheads, dumb revolving "investigations", and stupidly unfair trade agreements. The list is endless.
Blue states are responsible for 73% of the national debt. Without the fed (as in other states) to bail them out, Cali, Washington, and Hawaii would collapse economically. The left pretends that money is free and owned by everyone, and that producers of wealth don't mind it being taken away, and will just keep producing no matter how much is taxed away to subsidize the lazy.
Please.