Police Brutality and Shootings

Author: Buddamoose

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
systemic:  fundamental to a predominant social, economic, or political practice
which practice is systemic racism or other predominant social etc give one example of a systems or institution that is racist.
Systemic in the sense that it affects the entire system. I don't mean one particular piece, or 1 particular practice the police use is racist. I mean the system has these qualities built into. You agreed that police see themselves as separate from other people and as largely above the law. With that comes a sense of being better than other people. An "us vs. them" mentality. And the closer people are to being like "us", the superior group of people, then the less of an "other" they are. So if you are a well dressed white person, you are much more like "us" than if you are a black person wearing jeans and a T-Shit. This kind of thinking causes them to treat certain groups of people much worse than others. It isn't strictly racist, i'm sure they treat some poor white people terribly too, but it is a systemic problem. 

Things like the militarization of the police since 9/11 (they gave the police huge amounts of military surplus) and allowing cops to keep money seized in civil forfeture (this causes them to see criminals as sources of funding, but this has ballooned to anyone they think that can get away with robbing) also make this problem worse. 
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@HistoryBuff
 the system has these qualities built into.

what are these racist qualities you are talking about?
An "us vs. them" mentality. 
that is a problem, however I would call that tribalism, not racism.
have you see the video of the large black woman slapping a white cop, then punches him, his BLACK fellow officers knocks her the f out.  he was part of his tribe, she was not.
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@ILikePie5
The heart of HB's arguments are: Something is wrong, therefore systemic racism.

It's absolute nonsense.

It's even more ridiculous under scrutiny when you ask how they want the system to be changed to be less racist.

I asked HB if he was willing to eliminate police worker unions that shield all cops, even the racist ones, from justice, and he went into a batshit frenzy.

They have no proposals for a non-racist "system"

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@Greyparrot
someone do something, pretty much sums it up.
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@Greyparrot
The heart of HB's arguments are: Something is wrong, therefore systemic racism.
Racism won’t ever go away, it can only be reduced. The method of reduction is time. Compare the 1990s and now.
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@ILikePie5
Racism won’t ever go away, it can only be reduced. The method of reduction is time. Compare the 1990s and now.

I agree, but there are a good chunk of Americans who are convinced that the majority of Americans are racist NOW, that this is an inherently racist country, and that the county will NEVER have a colorblind culture.

Listen to Juan William's rant in this clip.

His argument around the 5:25 time mark is that the whole of American society isn't colorblind, that the system of America is inherently racist and must be fundamentally changed.

Fundamentally changed how exactly? The critics are either unwilling or unable to answer this question. My money is on unwilling because the real change the left really wants if pushed to answer is a systemic Marxist America where white-skinned people are the new bourgeoisie and the colored people (sans Asians) are the Proles. You can see as over and over the left leaders are caught equating wealth to skin color. Maybe they are afraid to admit it openly, but the dog whistle is pretty loud.
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@Greyparrot
I agree, but there are a good chunk of Americans who are convinced that the majority of Americans are racist NOW, that this is an inherently racist country, and that the county will NEVER have a colorblind culture.
Everyone agrees there are racists in the United States. However there are less racists today than the 90s. Just because a white cop pulls a black guy over for a traffic stop, it isn’t inherently racist. 

The critics are either unwilling or unable to answer this question.
They want to defund the police so criminals can run rampant. It’s clear now more than ever that the Democratic Party is the party of crime and lawlessness. This brings deja vu from the Nixon Era to a certain extent 😬
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
An "us vs. them" mentality. 
that is a problem, however I would call that tribalism, not racism.
ok, but if your "tribe" is both socio-economical as well as racial, then it can be a mixture of racism and tribalism. the 2 are not mutually exclusive. 


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@Greyparrot
I asked HB if he was willing to eliminate police worker unions that shield all cops, even the racist ones, from justice, and he went into a batshit frenzy.
No, i asked you to actually describe why it would be useful. You said that i should do research to try to figure out what your argument I was. I said that is your job. 

They have no proposals for a non-racist "system"
I gave several proposals in that very conversation. There are lots of others like banning them from having military equipment, ending and kind of rewards for police from civil forfeiture, ensuring that the investigation and rulings on all discipline for police are done by civilians and not by police. There are lots of things that could be done. 
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@ILikePie5
Everyone agrees there are racists in the United States. However there are less racists today than the 90s. Just because a white cop pulls a black guy over for a traffic stop, it isn’t inherently racist. 

There were 10 police killings of black unarmed men in 2019...thats 90 less than 2015 out of BILLIONS of police interactions with the public. How is that any measure of a systemically racist country? Was America more systemically racist by a factor of 10 in 2015? Nonsense talk.

Blacks overwhelmingly are overrepresented in police encounters, but that isn't a measure of racism. It is a measure of economic and cultural malaise rooted in the war on poverty and the war on crime. 77% of Blacks, including Mr. Floyd, have NO FATHER in the home. It's a big fucking deal and racism has absolutely NOTHING to do with that, so it never gets addressed.
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@HistoryBuff
There are lots of things that could be done. 

But they must have their union that shields them from justice. Explain why the police need that again. Or don't, I don't really care for your non-arguments.
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@Greyparrot
But they must have their union that shields them from justice. Explain why the police need that again. Or don't, I don't really care for your non-arguments.
again, you are supposed to be making your own point. You haven't actually described what disbanding their union would do. You just keep challenging me to disprove the claim you haven't made. If you tell me why you think it would be positive to do that, maybe I could respond to it. 

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@HistoryBuff
I am challenging you.

You're a Marxist coward too afraid to explain why authoritative Police need a worker union to shield them from civilian oversight. Enough with the dog-whistles, just say what you really feel. Be brave.
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@Greyparrot
I am challenging you.
except that you haven't. You make some vague claim about how it would be positive to do something. But you won't tell me why it would be positive or what you think it would do. Tell me what you think it will do and maybe I can respond to you. But if you won't actually tell me what your position is and why, I cannot respond to it. 

You're a Marxist coward too afraid to explain why authoritative Police need a worker union to shield them from civilian oversight. 
1) im not a marxist. I don;'t think you know what that word means
2) I'm not saying I agree or disagree that the police need a union. I don't know alot of the details of how police unions function. i'm willing to read your opinion and respond to it. But you keep refusing to tell me what your point is. 

Enough with the dog-whistles, just say what you really feel. Be brave.
What I feel about what? I don't think I've hidden anything. 
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@HistoryBuff
Okay, read this article and tell me what you think about it.

On August 26th, Colin Kaepernick, a quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, refused to stand for the national anthem, as a protest against police brutality. Since then, he’s been attacked by just about everyone—politicians, coaches, players, talk-radio hosts, veterans’ groups. But the harshest criticism has come from Bay Area police unions. The head of the San Francisco police association lambasted his “naïveté” and “total lack of sensitivity,” and called on the 49ers to “denounce” the gesture. The Santa Clara police union said that its members, many of whom provide security at 49ers games, might refuse to go to work if no action was taken against Kaepernick. A work stoppage to punish a player for expressing his opinion may seem extreme. But in the world of police unions, it’s business as usual. Indeed, most of them were formed as a reaction against public demands in the nineteen-sixties and seventies for more civilian oversight of the police. Recently, even as the use of excessive force against minorities has caused an outcry and urgent calls for reform, police unions have resisted attempts to change the status quo, attacking their critics as enablers of crime.

Police unions emerged later than many other public-service unions, but they’ve made up for the lost time. Thanks to the bargains they’ve struck on wages and benefits, police officers are among the best-paid civil servants. More importantly, they’ve been extraordinarily effective in establishing control over working conditions. All unions seek to ensure that their members have due-process rights and aren’t subject to arbitrary discipline, but police unions have defined working conditions in the broadest possible terms. This position has made it hard to investigate misconduct claims and to get rid of officers who break the rules. A study of collective bargaining by big-city police unions, published this summer by the reform group Campaign Zero, found that agreements routinely guarantee that officers aren’t interrogated immediately after use-of-force incidents and often ensure that disciplinary records are purged after three to five years.

Furthermore, thanks to union contracts, even officers who are fired can frequently get their jobs back. Perhaps the most egregious example was Hector Jimenez, an Oakland police officer who was dismissed in 2009, after killing two unarmed men, but who then successfully appealed and, two years later, was reinstated, with full back pay. The protection that unions have secured has helped create what Samuel Walker, an emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, and an expert on police accountability, calls a “culture of impunity.” Citing a recent Justice Department investigation of Baltimore’s police department, which found a systemic pattern of “serious violations of the U.S. Constitution and federal law,” he told me, “Knowing that it’s hard to be punished for misconduct fosters an attitude where you think you don’t have to answer for your behavior.”

For the past fifty years, police unions have done their best to block policing reforms of all kinds. In the seventies, they opposed officers’ having to wear name tags. More recently, they’ve opposed the use of body cameras and have protested proposals to document racial profiling and to track excessive-force complaints. They have lobbied to keep disciplinary histories sealed. If a doctor commits malpractice, it’s a matter of public record, but, in much of the country, a police officer’s use of excessive force is not. Across the nation, unions have led the battle to limit the power of civilian-review boards, generally by arguing that civilians are in no position to judge the split-second decisions that police officers make. Earlier this year, Newark created a civilian-review board that was acclaimed as a model of oversight. The city’s police union immediately announced that it would sue to shut it down.

Cities don’t have to concede so much power to police unions. So why do they? Big-city unions have large membership bases and are generous when it comes to campaign contributions. Neither liberals nor conservatives have been keen to challenge the unions’ power. Liberals are generally supportive of public-sector unions; some of the worst police departments in the country are in cities, like Baltimore and Oakland, run by liberal mayors. And though conservatives regularly castigate public-sector unions as parasites, they typically exempt the police. Perhaps most crucial, Walker says, “police unions can make life very difficult for mayors, attacking them as soft on crime and warning that, unless they get their way, it will go up. The fear of crime—which is often a code word for race—still has a powerful political impact.” As a result, while most private-sector unions in the U.S. have grown weaker since the seventies, police unions have grown stronger.

All labor unions represent the interests of the workers against the bosses. But police officers are not like other workers: they have state-sanctioned power of life and death over fellow-citizens. It’s hardly unreasonable to demand real oversight in exchange. Union control over police working conditions necessarily entails less control for the public, and that means less transparency and less accountability in cases of police violence. It’s long past time we watched the watchmen.

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@Buddamoose
I appreciate you putting the effort into this. I've argued the same in some of my debates on white domestic terrorism. 
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@Greyparrot
Okay, read this article and tell me what you think about it.
thank you. That was very helpful. 

It sounds like you certainly have a point. In a general sense, I support workers rights to unionize. I think they are very important in ensuring that employees are not treated as expendable tools and gives workers a position to negotiate with their employer. 

However, this article makes a compelling case that police unions are a core part of the problem with police abuse of power. If there were a way to strip the unions of that power without abolishing them, that would probably be a better idea in my opinion. For example passing a law limiting what police unions are permitted to do. But I will admit this is not an area I am particularly familiar with, so i don't know if that is possible. If not, then it certainly sounds like abolishing police unions would help to improve the situation. 

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@HistoryBuff
The problem is that the employer of police is YOU, and the police unions claim you are abusing the police.

Do you see the problem now?
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@Greyparrot
The problem is that the employer of police is YOU, and the police unions claim you are abusing the police.
well, sort of. The employer of police is the municipality that hires them. The people running that municipality work for their voters. Without a union, police could be forced to take actions that are unsafe or overly intrusive in their lives and they would have little to no recourse to protect themselves. I don't believe that this is a good thing. I think all employees need a safe way to object to unfair or unsafe circumstances in their place of employment. 

But on the other hand, I can very much see that police unions are often acting in such a way as to protect members even if they are acting improperly or even criminally. Since the police "protecting their own" is one of my primary points of concern about the police, I can definitely see how disbanding the unions would be a positive force for society. 

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@HistoryBuff
little to no recourse 

They have a recourse. It's called refusing to work. They don't need a union for that.
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@HistoryBuff
except I think that is an individual thing not systemic as so many claim.  preference isn't racist either is it?  If I prefer to not associate with a person who looks like the belong in ms-13 is that racist?  isn't it natural that we tend to gravitate to those we have or probably have common values and interests?  do you think people mistake these things for racism?  have you ever or know anyone who has ever encountered a true/real racist?  if it's systemic that should be a pretty fair number shouldn't it?  or are we just chasing ghosts?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Wait wait...so cultures are not exclusive to specific racial DNA? Whodathunk that in 2020?

Especially with all the mutts running around in America. Hell, you could mistake Obama for having mostly African DNA just by looking at his skin... Because DNA "purity" is sooo important in 2020...
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Also, when do we tackle the systemic fatherlessness issue?

@BlackFathersMatter


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@Greyparrot
the mobs don't know how to think is the problem, they ignore the obvious and facts to justify their violence and victim mentality.

I prefer blondes, does that mean you hate all other hair colors?
ok here you pick, here's a blonde but she weights 450 pounds and has a beard, the other, a brunette is a victoria secret model, which is your preference now?

these lines they attempt to draw, absurd at best.

blm!  then you see all the dead blacks in the news because they are rioting over 1 dead black guy.
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@Greyparrot
a black man was killed which is tragic, but what I can't understand is how murdering more black men fixes the issue, how does destroying the businesses and jobs of black people help?  it's like drinking more poison to cure the poison you just drank.  or am I missing it?

it's like, you killed one black guy?  hold my beer, you amatures that's how it's done.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
 If I prefer to not associate with a person who looks like the belong in ms-13 is that racist?
that depends. Do you think that being in MS-13 means that they are a person of color? if you look at a white person, a black person and a hispanic person who are dressed similarly and think all three look like ms13, then perhaps that's not racist. However, that isn't usually the case. Part of the problem is that the racism is built into other systemic things. Like classes and tribalism.

 isn't it natural that we tend to gravitate to those we have or probably have common values and interests?
sure

do you think people mistake these things for racism? 
it can be. But just as often, those 2 things are woven together. for example you see a black person and think of them as an "other" even if the guy might have the exact same belief system as you do. But you see a black guy and don't ever know what his values and interests are. You just assume you know. In that case it is a mixture of both. 

have you ever or know anyone who has ever encountered a true/real racist?
yeah. But in the modern world it is socially unacceptable to overtly show your racism. So most racists hide it behind a veneer of something else. But just because the number of people in white hoods, burning crosses has diminished, doesn't mean the underlying racist has gone away. 

if it's systemic that should be a pretty fair number shouldn't it?
well 2 things 1) it has become socially unacceptable to be outwardly racist. So racist people usually try to hide their racism behind something else to avoid social stigma.

2) The issue is that it is more complicated than that. it isn't the case where there is a sea of "unracist" people and a few "bad apples" who are outliers. That is what republican politicians would have you believe. (Although since alot of those republicans politicans are also racists, most wouldn't even go that far) 

But take the police for example. A guy could get hired onto the force and not be a racist. But he is trained on how to be a cop by other cops and lives in that culture. That culture is a very "us vs them" mentality. it breeds racism. If you are trained to pull your gun on a black guy alot easier than a white guy, then then you internalize that. You start to learn that using excessive force on black guys is fine, but not on white people. Most of them probably don't even realize the way they do things is racist. To them that is just how they do their job. And then they in turn teach that same mentality to future officers. 
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@HistoryBuff
Do you think that being in MS-13 means that they are a person of color?

It's 2020, everyone is a DNA mutt and a person of color.

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@HistoryBuff
Like classes and tribalism.
those are have little to do with racism in modern times afaik, you have examples?
for example you see a black person and think of them as an "other" even if the guy might have the exact same belief system as you do. But you see a black guy and don't ever know what his values and interests are.
incorrect judgements or mistakes are not racism, often we react based on your past experiences, right or wrong that's part of being human.
So most racists hide it behind a veneer of something else.
I would never claim it went away, but what you are describing is hunting ghosts.
 If you are trained to pull your gun on a black guy alot easier than a white guy
that would be a problem if it's true, any evidence that it is?  wouldn't the black police officers and other races also receive the same training or are the segregated for their training?

just so I understand systemic is rampant but so subtle you can't actually point it out or given concrete examples, but it exists because.......um, someone says so?  I get it, people like the show "Ghost Hunters), they want to believe even after all the attempts at proof and still not coming up with any, just understand it for what it actually is.



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@Greyparrot
the looting and riots have really overtake the original reason that a "racist" cop killed a black man, since the other officers aren't white it's a pretty difficult story to sell now, you can't sell racist cop kills black man while black/asian/hispanic officers help.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Like classes and tribalism.
those are have little to do with racism in modern times afaik, you have examples?
Class and tribalism are interwoven. Take political affiliation. Black people are much, much more likely to be a democrat than a republican. So when you see a black person you know they are unlikely to be "like you" in that respect. So your political affiliation takes on parts of a racial identity. 

for example you see a black person and think of them as an "other" even if the guy might have the exact same belief system as you do. But you see a black guy and don't ever know what his values and interests are.
incorrect judgements or mistakes are not racism, often we react based on your past experiences, right or wrong that's part of being human.
If you are making judgments about someone based on someone's race, that is racism. That is the definition of racism. 

So most racists hide it behind a veneer of something else.
I would never claim it went away, but what you are describing is hunting ghosts.
no, i'm talking about hunting what black people experience all the time. it's not like it's this rare thing no one ever sees.