there really was very very little chance of me changing my read on coal.
maybe Dani will reveal she had a huge thesis planned and I fucked myself, but
Themeless Mafia 1 - Day 3 & ENDGAME
Posts
Total:
59
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@Lucky
no need for a separate endgame thread imo, this is only 2 pages long and it isn't getting archived
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@sui_generis
maybe Dani will reveal she had a huge thesis planned and I fucked myself, but
Nope, though voting for me was really stupid and unjustifiable with 2 living scum.
I thought this was a decent game! YYW played it brilliantly. His normal town meta is so anti-town that his far more collaborative style in this game threw me off. He was actually playing like a townie!
Like I said to warren, it was obvious on DP3 that scum was between YYW and someone else. I wanted to let YYW and Sui have a dialog about it to give warren something to go off next day phase (knowing I'd be killed in the night). It was a true 50-50 toss up for me between Sui and Oro and I had no idea which one of them was scum.
On one hand Sui was pretty inactive but he always is, and all I could remember was him declaring to sheep me which I could see him doing as scum. On the other hand, Oro's few contributions to the game were incredibly dumb and provided zero utility whatsoever, BUT he just declared his mom in hospice so I immediately felt like an asshole for giving him pushback and said as much.
At the end of last day phase I was 95% sure scum was between YYW and Oro, but when YYW pressured Sui this day phase it threw me off so that was really smart. I was 50/50 because I assumed that it would be smart for him to bus. I was happy to leave warren alive with the last WIFOM vote next day phase because I really wasn't sure.
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@Lunatic
Let's policy lynch Zaradi instead. What the hell was that?
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@Danielle
I figured that I would be on your radar based on your posts in the last DP, but I also thought that keeping TUF alive could convince you that he and one of the inactives were scum. That's why I wanted to keep him alive, initially. But then, in the end, the "case" against me suggested he was going to complicate the DP3 more than I wanted to deal with -- even if I think Oro and I still would have won.
I wanted to win with TUF being the mislynch for the poetry of it, but that was going to entail more work than I thought was necessary (and possibly more risk because of the chaos and confusion he would have created by allowing him to remain alive).
I assumed Sui would be the person most likely to vote and I thought that by VTLing him I would both throw you off and get Sui to try to establish his town-cred with me, because I was pretty confident he read me as town and thought that scum were one of Warren, You, or Oro. So when that occurred to me, NKing TUF made more sense. It's not because I was afraid TUF would lead a wagon on me (he tried that throughout the game and it went nowhere) and I was pretty confident if he tried it would just play to my advantage by further distracting from Oro's inactivity.
What I expected would happen was that once I VTL'd Sui, he would vote for Warren and then Oro and I would hammer. But, when he VTL'd you I couldn't pass that up. I suppose Sui town read me and therefore because he anticipated that you were going to VTL me, he scum read you. Though, I still am not sure why he did that. But that's my theory at least.
All in all I think this was a good game. I think that Zaradi tried to do something that I would have typically expected from Lucky, but it just didn't work out. I wish he didn't replace out. I like Zaradi as a person and as a player. I also like TUF as a player when I'm scum because he is so useful to keep around, but that's another conversation entirely. lol
Oro played as well as I would want any scum partner to play. He let me do what I wanted to do with no interference. That's really all I ever want in a scum mate. I need to do my own thing and bounce ideas off, but that's it.
The only players who really were irritating were Ragnar (because of how badly he played his town-cop role) and Max (for his inactivity and then replacing out). Ragnar's town play was among the worst I have ever seen, and I think that the wagon that formed on him was objectively the correct decision as town or scum. That is why his play was so anti-town and why it became so easy to misdirect -- on my end -- in DP2. Ragnar, if anyone, is who lost the game for the town. Not Sui and not Zaradi.
That is because without Ragnar's play, Zaradi would have never fake claimed mason (or hinted at it), which means Zaradi would have never replaced out, which means Zaradi would not have been policy lynched, which means town would have had actual information to work with DP3. But that chain of events began with how Ragnar played. Now, to be sure, absent Ragnar's play I may still have been able to contrive some kind of strategy to misdirect and mislead, but it would have been a LOT harder. Ragnar's play also gave me what I needed to get Sui to town read me.
But after I knew who the sole power role was (which I did as soon as Ragnar fake claimed), I knew who to night kill then, how to control the NK's for the rest of the game, and what level of risk I had to potentially face (and the lack of it) because I knew there was nothing other than the cop.
So I had a lot of fun, and I will probably play with you guys in the future again. Hope everyone else enjoyed as well.
TUF needs to BTFO of Oro because that's just mean. The idea is to play so that people want to continue to play with you, town or scum. And acting like a jackass and blaming everyone else when you never had it right in the first place... it's just not a good look. There is exactly zero chance you would have led the town to victory.
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@sui_generis
there really was very very little chance of me changing my read on coal.
Nor should there have been. I was objectively the most pro-town player in the game and you made the right decision to sheep me. You were making the right decisions for the right reasons to the extent you were agreeing with how I was framing the issues for the town.
Your mistake, I think, was in scum reading Danielle for her expressing willingness to consider that I was scum. That wasn't a scum tell.
TUF should have been the DP3 lynch. Regretfully that didn't happen because he needed to be disposed of.
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@coal
(I skimmed your post -- I find them hard to read when I'm tired, sorry). Did you know Zaradi was lying about having a PR?
Ragnar's play was annoying but Zaradi's was too. Gambits aren't always bad and maybe it's just because I don't know Zaradi well enough, but that seemed pretty dumb. There was no way for him to know if Ragnar was town that early on and I feel like that really could have hurt town if we had a doctor that was outed because of it. It would have been a much different game if Zaradi didn't replace out (or do that in the first place).
Although, had those two played differently and we lynched Ragnar dp1 followed by a game of all vanillas, I don't think town would have stood a chance. I probs would have lost interest entirely.
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@coal
Back off of Oro. He just put his mother in hospice and his play was fine.
Sounds like it was a day long endeavor, he was out much longer than that. He could have opted for replacement at the very least.
I was the most pro-town player in the game, and no one read your "case".
I don't get why you were town read so well, but obviously you made the right move killing me.
I night killed you because you broke the rules by posting game relevant content outside of the game in a Google Doc and Lucky wouldn't do it. I suppose Lucky made the right decision, because the win is better this way.
That's fucking ridiculous people post cases from google docs all the time. I invited you to screenshot it too to use against me if I edited it.
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@coal
TUF needs to BTFO of Oro because that's just mean. The idea is to play so that people want to continue to play with you, town or scum. And acting like a jackass and blaming everyone else when you never had it right in the first place... it's just not a good look. There is exactly zero chance you would have led the town to victory.
You haven't played with oro much lately have you? He has a reputation for inactivity; just posting enough to not get replaced but not enough to ever be helpful. I suggest making him a policy lynch going forward.
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@coal
Frankly, you would have lost as soon as Danielle voted for Sui, because the result would have been the same. I gave serious thought to keeping you in the game because literally no one was buying your "case" againt me.
It would take them reading it too buy it. But that's too much actual work and people are lazy lol. I am liking mafia scum much better atm, people actually put in effort over there from what I am seeing.
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@sui_generis
there really was very very little chance of me changing my read on coal.maybe Dani will reveal she had a huge thesis planned and I fucked myself, but
Reads didn't even need to come into play at MYLO. The second you got voted by him, math should tell you with 2 scum left you would be quick hammered, and if not then he has to be the other scum.
The fact that no one used the normal MYLO logic here was sad...
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@Lunatic
I dont mind your objections. Its reasonable to promote more activity in a game even if less activity is clearly the better scum strategy. I have a hard time getting into games when theres nothing to figure out and the whole job is just to bicker and hope for some genuine scum slip. I am convinced that the best strategy for games without themes is to lay low, scum or no. The fighters tend to go down first. I think themeless games should be much shorter than themed games.
My mom died on Sunday morning and Ive been out with family visits, phone calls and getting as drunk as possible since. I had two debate args due today and I barely remember
but setting that aside I think you're right that I get shyer as scum and policy lynch in future is prob justified
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@oromagi
I'm sorry to hear about your mom oro...
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@Danielle
Did you know Zaradi was lying about having a PR?
I was pretty sure he was lying, but I wasn't positive, because I didn't immediately believe Ragnar's claim. Nothing about his play suggested he had a power role other than the doc, and I knew there wasn't a roleblocker in the game.
The strategy behind what he was doing was, subjectively, something I could only see town Zaradi doing. That was a real read. I would have read that the same way as town.
Ragnar's play was annoying but Zaradi's was too. Gambits aren't always bad and maybe it's just because I don't know Zaradi well enough, but that seemed pretty dumb. There was no way for him to know if Ragnar was town that early on and I feel like that really could have hurt town if we had a doctor that was outed because of it. It would have been a much different game if Zaradi didn't replace out (or do that in the first place).
I agree there was no way for Zaradi to know Ragnar was town (which, notably, is why TUF's entire "case" against me is vacuous). TUF disagrees with what happened with Ragnar, but that doesn't change the fact that Ragnar was the most pro-scum and anti-town player in the game despite being the cop. It was spectacularly bad town play.
Although, had those two played differently and we lynched Ragnar dp1 followed by a game of all vanillas, I don't think town would have stood a chance. I probs would have lost interest entirely.
I don't know. Maybe. I still think the town's loss is more proximately attributable to Ragnar than anyone else.
Ragnar's actions set in motion my strategy that cost town the game.
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@oromagi
I am very sorry to hear about your mother, Oro.
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@Lunatic
You haven't played with oro much lately have you? He has a reputation for inactivity; just posting enough to not get replaced but not enough to ever be helpful. I suggest making him a policy lynch going forward.
That is a bad, reckless way to play.
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@coal
I still think the town's loss is more proximately attributable to Ragnar than anyone else.Ragnar's actions set in motion my strategy that cost town the game.
I mean I read him town at the end of dp1 but only because of what Zaradi did, and assumed he was masons with Zaradi or Zaradi was the doc. Because Ragnar didn't know if there was a doc, then claiming the way he did didn't make sense, I agree. But if he were a mason (and at the time, you weren't sure if he was) I could see the utility in what he did.
Like I said in the game, the whole point of the mason role is to be confirmed town. So if he were really masons with Zaradi then they could have confirmed two townies and their play would have been salvageable. I don't get why you guys didn't kill Zaradi instead of Ragnar np1 which is the only thing that made sense in my mind. Because if he were the doc he would have been on Ragnar, and if he were a mason he would be confirmed town later so wouldn't it have made sense to target him np1?
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@Lunatic
I wouldn't necessarily policy-lynch Oro for inactivity, because by that logic, we'd also have to policy-lynch Sui and Max who are inactive in just about every game I've ever played with them (Sui is only active in forum games when Magic plays).
But I have to say I am a little put off by game play like Ragnar's and Oro's because I don't know if they are just weak players or not.
I believe this was my first game I've played with Oro and just about everything he said was wrong (I said last dp that anyone defending Zaradi as town at that point would be read scum to me as trying too hard for town cred, which is why I was convinced YYW and Oro were guilty at the end of last dp -- it wasn't until YY pressured Sui today that I started to experience confusion via WIFOM) and I figured that people who played with Oro would have called him out as scum for poor logic if what he was saying was out of the ordinary. Instead, iirc when I called Oro out on dp1 people said "that's just how he plays as town" so I never questioned it really. If that's the case and really he plays that way as town (sheeping, not contributing much, little to no analysis, etc.) then I will probs lynch him on game play going forward.
Just like I expect to put a lot more pressure on town YYW going forward because he usually plays very anti-town as town. In this game he had the BEST opportunities to play pro-town because Ragnar and Zaradi didn't play well imo. None of YY's pressure on Ragnar was contrived because Ragnar played poorly, and YY jumping on the Zaradi wagon was easy and didn't read scum until he started to defend Zaradi. He let me lead the charge against him and could have easily convinced Sui (if he had to) that I was scum for pushing that mislynch, while still not appearing scum himself for hopping on.
I'm gonna come on this evening to play Live Mafia. Send me a link :)
The idea isnt necessarily to lynch lynch them but we need to pressure inactives more. Get them to l-1 and encourage activity. If they feel like playing at that point by all means unvote them. In the words of drafter: an active town will be eaten alive by an inactive mafia every time.
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@Lunatic
@sui_generis
@oromagi
Oro: I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I hope you and your family are doing as well as possible during a time like this.
Lunatic: I'm sorry I didn't get around to reading your case. I know that must have taken a ton of effort and I did plan to do so before D3 got too far underway, but we saw how that turned out. Also if you're interested in trying out MU I have a game I'm hosting and I ripped off the format Wylted had for one of his games a ways back. No kills, everyone has a lover.
Sui: Coal and I were both townreading Dani, not sure about oro. But when at least 2/4 of the living players are townreading someone at LYLO I feel like voting them off the bat isn't a good idea and you should probably at least interact with the people townreading them.
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@Lunatic
I agree and all but if the mafia isn't active I don't care, I finish the game and am frustrated with the result but don't consider it a loss, cause the mafia didn't win the game, they just sat it out
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@Lunatic
how was it not lylo @ 2s v 3t
vtnl + nk = 2s v 2t = no lynch = nk = scum win???
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@warren42
tbh I completely forgot about quick hammering.
literally didn't even consider it.
I had coal as confirmed town in my mind with Dani + ? as scum.
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@oromagi
sorry to hear about your mom, man. my condolences.
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@sui_generis
lylo*
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@Danielle
@LikeMagic
(Sui is only active in forum games when Magic plays).
😏
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@warren42
I'm sorry I didn't get around to reading your case. I know that must have taken a ton of effort and I did plan to do so before D3 got too far underway, but we saw how that turned out.
Is what it is, case or not, seemed a lot of people town read Coal so it would have been a hard sell I suppose.
Also if you're interested in trying out MU I have a game I'm hosting and I ripped off the format Wylted had for one of his games a ways back. No kills, everyone has a lover.
Sure, maybe after the one I am currently in ends. Hit up mikal and Danielle too.
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@Lunatic
How did none of you suspect coal lol
I identified him as scum in DP1.
Granted, nothing in DP1 gave me reason to suspect Oro.
...
Thanks for your repeated quality analyses. I dread going against you when you are scum.