-->
@secularmerlin
But wait... i still see it as a choice not to look into it though lol. Bc i know i can.
Which infinity stone would you take and why
Posts
Total:
89
-->
@Outplayz
Ok outplayz if you say so.
-->
@secularmerlin
Now i want you to convince me that this isn't my choice. Don't end it like that lol.
-->
@Outplayz
Fine, but if it works you won't like it.
i still see it as a choice not to look into it though lol. Bc i know i can.
If you can then do it or concede that you do not posses the capacity. Look with me into the spectre of our shared epistemological limits. It is beyond our ability to know what if anything is beyond the observable universe (that is what observable means). If you look long enough into the void the void gives no indication that it is staring back (anyone who says different is anthropomorphizing voids). There is no physical evidence to suggest that there is anything beyond the physical. If you cannot examine this line of reasoning with me you cannot claim you are making choices governing your beliefs and if you can you may be forced to face the crushing reality of undeniable cause and effect from which there is no escape.
I challenge you to offer a logical line of reasoning that shows freewill not just as a possibility but as a necessary element of human conciousness. But first before you can even try you must have a working definition of both conciousness and freewill. This is much harder than you think since the definitions must include everything/everyone you believe possesses these qualities and nothing/no one that you believe doesn't.
I choose the infinity stone of epistemology. Face me with your claims if you dare (too dramatic?)
-->
@secularmerlin
I agree there is no "physical" evidence. But i wouldn't agree with you per se that there is no anecdotal evidence. I say "per se" bc even the anecdotal evidence might be physical therefore, making no evidence. But for this conversation i will just go with there is no evidence that there is anything beyond the physical. But if there is only the physical... then, i am actually more sure that i am the one making the choices in my life. What / who else would it be?There is no physical evidence to suggest that there is anything beyond the physical. If you cannot examine this line of reasoning with me you cannot claim you are making choices governing your beliefs and if you can you may be forced to face the crushing reality of undeniable cause and effect from which there is no escape.
definition of both conciousness and freewill.
This is most def. hard. I would define consciousness as having the ability to think, imagine, sentience, self aware / awareness, being aware of the world. Of course there are many levels of consciousness. Some may have more of one thing or less or almost none. But complete void of all of the above would be unconsciousness. Freewill would be being able to make choices without anything controlling those choices. Of course, things can influence my choices or even force them, but in the end of the day, i choose how to proceed. I'll stay at those definitions for now. I may amend them.
(too dramatic?)
No. I thought you were making fun of me for a second though lol.
-->
@Outplayz
Before I reply I just want to say that I am not making fun. This sort of conversation is why I joined ddo and why I continue to frequent dart.
Freewill would be being able to make choices without anything controlling those choices
At the very least your "choices" are determined by a mixture of your preferences (which are not under your control) and your circumstances (which are not under your control) by your definition it would seem that freewill does not exist. All things being equal a coffee drinker drinks coffee, but they didn't decide to like coffee it just brings them pleasure. Of course if it's too hot outside they might go for a soda or an iced tea but they didn't decide what the weather would be like either. It follows therefore that the coffee drinker has no control over what beverage they "choose".
We may circle back to your definition of consciousness since it includes many other words that are fairly illdefined and/or subjective like awareness and sentience but for now let's focus on freewill. If we cannot ascertain what freewill is then we can hardly claim to have any.
-->
@secularmerlin
At the very least your "choices" are determined by a mixture of your preferences (which are not under your control) and your circumstances (which are not under your control) by your definition it would seem that freewill does not exist. All things being equal a coffee drinker drinks coffee, but they didn't decide to like coffee it just brings them pleasure. Of course if it's too hot outside they might go for a soda or an iced tea but they didn't decide what the weather would be like either. It follows therefore that the coffee drinker has no control over what beverage they "choose".
This was a good analogy... now i'm starting to see where you are coming from. In regards to my definition, it is important that the final choice is my decision. I said that things can influence it or force it, but the final decision is mine. For instance, i can drink a hot cup of coffee in hot weather if i wanted to... and, sometimes i do bc i actually enjoy the taste of coffee a lot. It might even make me uncomfortable or make me sweat, but it is my choice to make myself uncomfortable. The final decision is mine even if the weather is forcing me to do otherwise. The government could even make it illegal with a life sentence to drink coffee. But it is my choice to take the risk and drink coffee. If a guy has a gun to my head and says i can't drink coffee or he'll shot... i can decide to die and take a sip. Nothing can take this away from me. Unless of course i'm hanging off a building and can't use my hands to grab a cup, or... if the world stops making coffee. Then my choice is gone... but, i can still pursue to make my own. I can spend all my life to figure out how to make a cup of coffee if i wanted to. The only way i could never is if both my hands are cut off and the world stops making coffee and every human being is dead. That is the only way i can't have coffee anymore... but even then, i won't forget how much i like coffee. So i guess the world would have to die, my hands be cut off, and have severe brain damage... then, i may never think of coffee again. But in that situation it would be obvious what i had as choices were taken away. I had choices or freewill before that. But as the only human being left with brain damage... i could even decide to kill myself... again, having freewill to make the final decision.
The "pleasure" angle is interesting. But i do things that please me, and i don't do some things that please me. I always make the final choice. If nothing gave me pleasure, food or drink. I would have to make the final choice to drink and eat or die. I very well could choose death.
-->
@Outplayz
Let's examine the pleasure angle shall we. What are some reason la you might "choose" not to do something that brings you pleasure. Let's take sex, by all accounts a pretty serious motivator. Let's say a person you find attractive has made it very clear that they reciprocate. Now ordinarily that would equal a night in a motel you wouldn't tell your nanna about but let's say you don't go through with it. Why wouldn't You? What reason do you have to say no? Sure you could say no but why would you?
-->
@secularmerlin
Let's examine the pleasure angle shall we. What are some reason la you might "choose" not to do something that brings you pleasure. Let's take sex, by all accounts a pretty serious motivator. Let's say a person you find attractive has made it very clear that they reciprocate. Now ordinarily that would equal a night in a motel you wouldn't tell your nanna about but let's say you don't go through with it. Why wouldn't You? What reason do you have to say no? Sure you could say no but why would you?
Someone i find attractive and down... i highly doubt i would ever say no. Some cases i might, if she smells, if she has a crappy attitude, if i knew she has a STD that a condom can't protect against, if she looked intoxicated and i wasn't, if she was a friend's ex. But those cases above are something i most the time would say no to... It depends on how i'm feeling in the moment.
-->
@Outplayz
So in general you would only say no because of an external reason over which you have no control? Or are you claiming to be in control of another person's sexual health and the intoxicants they have consumed? (You forgot to avoid pregnancy or if she says "you remind me of my father" by the way, both totally legit reasons to bail imho). Seems less like a choice than an evaluation of the situation combined with a reasonable risk assessment.
-->
@secularmerlin
But it is my choices. I have preferences. There are things that i like and don't like. And even then, there could be reasons in the moment i just throw them all out and say "F-it" ... All of that sounds like i am free to make the final choice. I understand what you mean that certain things are out of my hand, but i am the one that gets to define the moment... and at any time i can change my mind in regards to what i like and don't.
-->
@Outplayz
You can change your mind at the drop of a hat about your likes and dislikes? Prove it. Briefly change your sexual orientation and decide to hate coffee. I'll just give you a minute... take your time... did it work? No? Harder than it sounds isn't it?
Ok now let's assume that you do something for literally no reason. Not even just to prove to me that you can. In that case you haven't really made a descision at all you have simply engaged in random behavior. A random event is not an indication of freewill any more than following the dictates of cause and effect is.
When it comes to sex... i can. There are certain things i wouldn't do most the time. I guess that doesn't mean at a drop of a hat though... so, i agree it doesn't happen easily. Certain things are set like my sexual orientation. Certain things just change like my preferences. The things that don't change are hard / impossible to change.You can change your mind at the drop of a hat about your likes and dislikes? Prove it. Briefly change your sexual orientation and decide to hate coffee. I'll just give you a minute... take your time... did it work? No? Harder than it sounds isn't it?
Ok now let's assume that you do something for literally no reason. Not even just to prove to me that you can. In that case you haven't really made a descision at all you have simply engaged in random behavior. A random event is not an indication of freewill any more than following the dictates of cause and effect is.
Let's see... i randomly yell. I don't see how that isn't freewill that i can randomly yell... or even do something for no reason like slap a kid in the head or something. Isn't it me making a final choice to do so? Even if i knew the kid could hit me back?
-->
@Outplayz
If you slapped a kid for litteraly no reason, apart from being a terrible baby sitter, you haven't made a descision you are just doing things. As for changing your preferences (not your behavior but your actual preferences) I don't think that is as simple as you seem to be making it out to be. Like enjoying coffee, you can stop drinking coffee sure but by your own admission it would take severe brain damage to keep you from thinking about it.
-->
@secularmerlin
It's doesn't take severe brain damage all the time but i agree it isn't easy to change preferences. It can however happen with time. Like i use to hate eggplant and now i like it. I thought sushi is gross, and now it is one of my favorite foods. So, things can change... sometimes quickly like the sushi thing for me... but, i would agree i can't currently dislike something and easily make myself like it.
This whole free will thing is hard to disprove or even convince me off it at face value. I think that's why you aren't convincing me bc we are looking at it without any philosophical inquiry or digging deep into the brains functions. For instance, you can convince me that it is known that my brain sometimes makes a decision before i am even aware of that decision. Than we can get into is there an "I" or "me" to even make these decisions since i am a different person every minute.
At face value however... i don't think you can say there is no freewill or choice. It will always "appear" that there is. We would need to dig into brain function and identity philosophy and stuff to then start questioning is it even me making these choices, etc.
-->
@Outplayz
Oh I don't know for certain whether or not we posses freewill I just see no evidence for or against it and I am unable to maintain a belief in the absence of evidence. I will say that I don't think you decided to like eggplant. That your preferences have changed doesn't mean you meant to change them. I had a really good laugh about the slapping kids around thing though. Mostly because you seem way to nice to be smacking anyone around.
-->
@secularmerlin
Lol, yeah i wouldn't smack a kid for no reason. But that reminds me off a funny / intense moment i had once in college. We went with a frat (i wasn't in the frat or any just knew people) to mexico to go to a club. We pre-gamed so we were kinda tipsy when we got there. But the bus driver accidentally took us to the wrong club. This club was still kinda cool so we drank there but i quickly noticed a group of guys in suits sitting above us. There were multiple levels... kinda cool looking and they were at the top. A random guy came up to me and a friend and asked us if we were willing to sell meth for them. I knew something is off and they're probably a gang/mafia bc i saw the guy go up and report back. So i went to gather my friends and leave but one of my friends was passed out. Right when i went to him, a few guys in suits came up to me and said, "i don't like him" ... i asked why, they said "get him the F-out of there." They looked like they were about to get aggressive so i turned around and slapped my friend as hard as i could in the face. The guys cracked up. I did that bc the first thing i thought is who can't laugh from a spontaneous smack in the face. Thankfully it worked and i'm alive lol.
I went golfing today with my uncle. He's not only really smart but also a very good neurologist. He gave me a bit to think about in regards to freewill and the brain. That is where i learned the identity stuff and how the brain makes choices before you are even aware it did. But he also agreed it really comes down to how you define certain things like self, identity, me, you, and all that. Still though.. at face value, it looks like we have it. Digging deep, i guess one could make an argument "i" don't even exist... So how can i make choices if there is no "me."
-->
@Outplayz
My whole thing is based on not being in control of the things that we tend to use to make determinations about our behavior (Preferences and outside factors) not being under our control but it's true that if there is physical evidence of freewill in the brain itself neurologists haven't found it and what they have found may actually be evidence that there isn't any freewill. Probably too early to be sure but when I come across someone who can't even consider the idea that we might not I really get this weird feeling that they really have no freewill.
Not you. You at least are considering the idea, but some people seem preprogrammed to be unable to accept or handle the idea.
I really don't believe in freewill though for my part.
Did you know that five year olds consistently choose the political candidate that will win. It's true something like an average of seventy five percent of the five year olds will pick the winning candidate just looking at pictures, which is funny because that's like the average percentage of votes winning candidates tend to get.
What does that say about freewill?
-->
@secularmerlin
Oh wow, no i've never heard about that but it makes sense. When i was a kid i would always favor the winning team, etc. I didn't get the idea of going for the underdog until i was taught that. Maybe a lack of empathy as a little kid is the cause of it. You know they say that kids are really solipsistic. Nothing else exists but them and everything is for them. Kids are interesting in general to me. Their imaginations are really something else.
I'm sure if you are finding people that won't even consider the idea, they are likely very religious. I've recently been trying to see the depths of ignorance that comes from religion and i am actually shocked how many "dumb" people there are in this world. There are youtube videos made to show street magicians are possessed by the devil/demons. They say these tricks are only possible through demonic possession. It blows my mind how many people comment stuff like "i knew it" "it's obvious it's demons" etc. I am at a lose for words at how many people there are. I thought the like ratio would be low but it's like 20k like to 2.2k dislikes. Just wtf kind of world do we live in? You can literally look up Youtube videos that show how some of these tricks are done... but even if there wasn't ... "Demonic possession" ... people are freaking gullible and dumb, i'm flabbergasted. In that regard, i question if they have freewill too. They seem programmed by anything they hear. The thing you said about kids... there are adults that are just the same!
Here is a cool thing i am thinking of. Maybe it's bc there are multiple Solipsistic entities in this world or gods. That it is so hard to determine and prove bc only these gods have freewill. So maybe if we can question it we are among the gods manifested here and everyone else is just created people for our experience. So we just might be the gods. Too much? Lol
-->
@Outplayz
Reality stone: make Waluigi real and marry him.
-->
@Aporia
What is it about Waluigi you find most appealing/attractive?
-->
@Outplayz
That Voice obvi
-->
@Aporia
I had to spend some time to find a video with his voice but i found waaaaa
45 days later
-->
@Goldtop
Go back to the Religion forum.
-->
@Outplayz
The Space Stone.
771 days later
They all sound great, but I think I would choose the mind stone.
Nvm, I'd like the Time stone, I want to never age
30 days later
As a Zelda player, y'all have more than 3 to choose from?
7 days later
Time Stone, ez money