What you fail to realize is post-70 A.D. of the book of Revelation renders all Preterist thought absolutely FALSE. THINK, the earliest Christian historian who recorded the church’s knowledge of the Domitianic dating of Revelation was Hegessippus in 150 A.D. and this continued to be the unanimous view until about 4 centuries later with the Syriac Peshitta NT manuscript in which someone wrote that John was exiled under Nero. HELLO? Therefore, It is sometimes claimed that the Neronic dating is in the original, but this is impossible since the original lacked the book of Revelation. The history shows there is no source or reasoning given for this change in that 6th century manuscript. This is most problematic at best, and definitely lacks the authoritativeness that would be required to credibly make such a huge revision to what was commonly accepted and passed down from the end of the first century/beginning of the 2nd. FACT!
Demonstrate by documenting both biblical verses and how they tie into the history of the times, starting at the beginning, Revelation 1:1-9, as referring to Domitian's reign. Can you do that?
Revelation 1:9
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
I want you to break down the verses, starting at verse 1 and finishing at verse 9 as to how they related to AD 90-95. And, if you are going to list early church fathers, supply their quotes and reference their works.
Since you mention the Syrian manuscript give evidence of your other claims as to the most reasonable and supply the evidence that the manuscript you reference is speaking of AD 90-95 and Domitian's reign.
The same can be said for the Muratorian Fragment, which is the 7th century copy of the 2nd century original, with no way to prove the Neronic dating was in the original. There is no record of any of the early church fathers holding to the Neronic date of Revelation, where this is a fascinating glimpse into the early church fathers and what they believed on a variety of topics is in ‘A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs’, over 700 pages that were compiled by David Bercot! In addition to Hegessippus, who, notably, wrote this prior to Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Jerome, Sulpicius Severus, and a number of other church fathers both before and not long after the council at Nicaea in 325AD, all confirm that John was exiled to Patmos by Domitian where he received Revelation, get it?!!! The lack of any dissenting view naming Nero in place of Domitian until the 6th century should give early-date advocates pause. 2+2=4! Therefore, most of the events of Revelation are still in our future where some view the messages to the churches as having already been strictly for them and completely fulfilled, while some view each church as symbolic for a different time period, and of course there could be room for double-fulfillment of most of those first 3 chapters.
From Revelation alone, you cannot demonstrate a late date of writing. The full text (Revelation 1-22) and most if not all the evidence in fact reveals just the opposite. I will be glad to get into this if you are willing. I look forward to such a discussion but have not found anyone willing to get in-depth. Will you prove the exception? I think we should start our own thread by copying and pasting this post as its first entree.
If you want to get into the church fathers as well, please document the quote and where it is cited from - what work of what church father. I think it will be educational for others who read this as well.
Let us take this in tiny chunks (forgive the comical oxymoron). Start with Revelation 1:1-9.
I invite you to put your money where your mouth is and thoroughly document your viewpoint. In this way, we can gradually document our different stances as to which is the most reasonable to believe based on the evidence available.
Remember, there was a celebration on Patmos in 1995 commemorating 1900 years, approximately, as in 95 or 96 A.D., since the Revelation Jesus gave to John. Furthermore, what other events in the 1st century A.D. are ever claimed as taking place 2 or 3 decades earlier, or later? UNDERSTAND? With all of the accurate records kept during the Roman Empire era and surviving today, there is little room for such a vast difference being possible. Understand this simple premise, its commonly believed that Jesus died around 30 or 33 A.D., Paul and Peter were martyred in the 60’s, Nero lived from 37-68 A.D., etc. NO ONE SAYS JESUS DIED IN 3AD OR 60AD, or that Peter and Paul were martyred in the 30’s A.D. or 90’s A.D., or that Nero actually reigned around the time of Jesus’ ministry as recorded in the Gospels! The majority of scholarship places John’s writing of Revelation in the mid-90’s, but somehow your insidious Preterist faith thinks it’s ok to go against the overwhelming consensus of the past 2000 years? LAUGHABLE!!!
Your thinking makes some fatal errors, IMO, of which I would be only too pleased to demonstrate, if you can have a serious conversation, without any antics. I invite you to put aside your antics, your name-calling, your unnecessary capitalization of full sentences and show your view is more reasonable not by mere assertion but by citing biblical verses and historical facts.
Regarding Revelation, first, you assume that John, exiled at Patmos, refers to Domitian's reign and not Nero's based on a very dubious statement by Ireneaus and then subsequently borrowed by other early church fathers. I believe this speculation has been well refuted by Kenneth Gentry (
Before Jerusalem Fell) and many others, such as John A.T. Robinson).
Second, the language of Revelation supports early writing before AD 70.
Third, I would be glad to debate you on this subject.
LISTED BY DATE
- -0047-48: James
- 0050,E: 1 Thessalonians
- 0050-51: 2 Thessalonians
- 0055,E: 1 Corinthians
- 0055,L: 1 Timothy
- 0056,E: 2 Corinthians
- 0056,L: Galatians
- 0057,E: Romans
- 0057,E: Titus
- 0058,E: Philippians
- 0058,M: Philemon
- 0058,M: Colossians
- 0058.M: Ephesians
- 0058,L: 2 Timothy
- 0040-60: The Didache
- 0045-60: Mark
- 0040-60+: Matthew
- -0057-60+: Luke
- 0061-62: Jude
- 0061-62: 2 Peter
- 0057-62+: Acts
- 0060-65: 1 John
- 0060-65: 2 John
- 0060-65: 3 John
- 0065,E: 1 Peter
- -0040-65+: John
- 0067: Hebrews
- 0068,L(-70): Revelation
- 0070,E: 1 Clement
- 0075: Barnabas
- -0085: The Shepherd of Hermas
LISTED BY TITLE
- Acts: 57-62+
- Barnabas: 75
- 1 Clement: Early 70
- Colossians: Summer 58
- Corinthians 1: Early 55
- Corinthians 2: Early 56
- The Didache: 40-60
- Ephesians: Late Summer 58
- Galatians: Later 56
- Hebrews: 67
- James: -47-48
- John c. -40-65+
- 1 John: 60-65
- 2 John: 60-65
- 3 John: 60-65
- Jude: 61-2
- Luke: -57-60+
- Mark: 45-60
- Matthew: 40-60+
- 1 Peter: Spring 65
- 2 Peter: 61-2
- Philemon: Summer 58
- Philippians: Spring 58
- Revelation: Late 68 (-70)
- Romans: Early 57
- The Shepherd of Hermas: -85
- Thessalonians 1: Early 50
- Thessalonians 2: 50-51
- Timothy 1: Autumn 55
- Timothy 2: Autumn 58
- Titus: Late Spring 57
Remember, the great fire of Rome took place for nearly a week during 64 A.D., but no one places it in 54 A.D. let alone 34 A.D. A powerful earthquake in 60 A.D. devastated Laodicea, and yet no one ever says that earthquake took place in 30 A.D. 30 years prior. With the vast majority of evidence to the contrary. Your Satanic Preterist faith literally rests on this single pillar of the dating of the book of Revelation. And, really, that is no pillar at all in light of the historicity of the late date!!!!
Now, go hide yourself from the above FACTS that make your Preterist faith as comical as the Pentacostals, Mormons, Jehovah Witneesess, etc., because in the true Matthean 4:10 way, BE GONE SATAN!
I claim Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I am willing to back that up, just as I am willing to back up that almost every NT canonized book shows evidence of being written before AD 70. Perhaps we can leave that for the next discussion after we document the evidence for Revelation as written before or after AD 70.
My Preterist belief does not rest on Revelation alone as written before AD70 but on every NT canonized work written before AD70 from the evidence both internally (the book itself) and externally (other pieces of evidence). Since the biblical books are what are in question the majority of the discussion should focus on what they reveal through their time and audience relevance statements.
Also, since you claim to be a true believer, what church, doctrine, or belief do you expand upon? Is this solely your own interpretation or do you have something you feed off of?