Women Becoming Catholic Priests

Author: Barney
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#1
Barney
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I just tried out a religion and politics discord, within a couple minutes of joining I had one of the moderators telling me off because I'm both Catholic and a Feminist. I even got repeatedly called a "heretic."

So I'm hoping to have a discussion on the topic of hypothetical women priests. I do not believe the church needs to change, however it is a change I would support. My belief in support for it, stems from a concept imago dei, which is that we are all made fully in the same image of god.

Of course to address the elephant in the room: the church has a history of making horrible mistakes on who to ordain. People are fallible, and the decision of people to rule that women cannot be ordained, could be another mistake by the same fallible people.

...

To not drown things out in a wall of text, I'll cut off there until there are responses. Do expect me to barrow points from the following article: https://www.vogue.com/projects/13543313/roman-catholic-women-priest-movement-giulia-bianchi/
#2
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I’am empathetic to the difficult position Christians often face, (but not exclusive to them) which is, namely, the juggling act of holding two or more seemingly contradictory ideas simultaneously in one head.
We are perfectly able to cherry pick the bible and find some passage here or there that supports our largely, socially derived position (because let’s not kid ourselves about where these things evolve) on issues related to feminism and specifically, their potential role in the management of something like the Catholic Church. 
Both sides will have their pre-existing positions along with their favorite bible passages and references to support them, and as such, it becomes useless and counterproductive for both sides to make forever endless reference to the biblical text. 
Observing and adapting to the ‘slow‘ and gradual evolution of social norms is probably a better strategy in making those decisions.

On the other hand, society is also in need of strong conservative systems and groups that, on occasion, run contrary to these rapidly shifting and evolving social norms and movements. The Catholic Church happens to be one of them. 
#3
Stephen
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@Barney

So I'm hoping to have a discussion on the topic of hypothetical women priests.

1 Timothy 2:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet.

1 Corinthians 14:34 New International Version (NIV)
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

It appears your up against it, doesn't it?  That said, Apollos believed himself  to be " competent in the Scriptures" found himself lacking when Priscilla and Aquila (both women)  had to put him right on a few things scriptural .Acts 18:24-26

There are quite a few here that remind me of Apollos.


Then of course we have god himself talking of  daughters [women] being prophets:

" And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,Acts 2:17

But then Timothy has to go and spoil the dream saying  "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness." 1 Timothy 2:11

But then Philip the evangelist  had four unmarried daughters, that  prophesied. Acts 21:8-9

I can only gather that the bible gives out mixed messages when it comes to women priests.


The Gnostic gospels has Mary Magdalene pleading with the Christ to have a word with Peter telling him she was extremely scared of Peter - real name Simon - and that he hated her.


I even got repeatedly called a "heretic."

Excuse me for laughing. I get called that all the time.




#4
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@Barney
I am not particularly religious but I was raised Catholic and Feminist.  Women have always been the blood and bone of every church I've ever been in.  I see no bar against women in the priesthood and would consider any God who would exclude women unworthy of worship.
#5
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@Stephen
@Barney
This is a fascinating subject that is to often overwhelmed by feminism when the subject really is the priesthood and its purpose. Notwithstanding the arguments as presented by Stephen that Timothy and Paul both spoke against women speaking in Church, I submit we have, once again, encountered the awful construct that the Holy Bible is unassailable, the perfect and completely reliable Word of God as written. Let us recall its history. It is the inspired work of many men and women [let us not forget the contributions of Eve, Sariah, Eshter, Ruth, Mary, and the Magdalene, and others]. However, even if each book's author's scrolls were once had, every one of them is lost to history. What have we? Copies, transliterations, translations only. Maybe not as well inspired as those who wrote their original manuscripts. Maybe some better than others. Y'all know the game of children in a circle or a line. One whispers a brief story to the next, and each repeats the story to the next until all have heard it. The last openly tells the story as he/she heard it. It is ot the same, even with a limited number of children, not centuries of generations into millennia. The story has changed and that is inevitable. Even if the children write rather than tell the story one to another, the story changes. The same game is conducted by adults, and the story changes. And we expect a book we hold in hand today, all over the world in its many languages, to be the infallible Word of God? Excuse me while I laugh. He didn't write it in the first place; He inspired it, but must deal with the inadequacies of even well meaning men, let alone those who would deceive.

So, how can we know what is, and is not true, biblically? Ask God. He knows, and will readily reveal it. But we have to ask.

So, what have we relative to women? They are just as sincere, well-intended, or corrupt as men. However, look at the representation of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling, specifically at the center panel: the Creation of Adam. There is Adam, at arm's length from God and His outstretched right finger on His right, outstretched arm. What of God's left arm, also perfect, divine, and protective. It, said Mickey, himself, embraces Eve in her creation. So, which is the more honored by God? I declare that Eve is God's beloved daughter, and her female children, likewise. They are the ultimate creation; after God created man. Woman holds that high distinction. In the end, while men use tools [such as the priesthood] women and daughters use their hearts. And women are endowed with the power of creation more akin to that used by God, but on this side of the veil, than any man ever has or ever will hold. Therein is the beauty and majesty of woman. I revere her with all my heart. A woman does not need the tool of the priesthood. She is already endowed with the power of God. I'd start listening to her if I were you.
#6
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Against.Women can be nuns. Should we allow men to be nuns. It should go both ways
#7
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I can also see why Christians would be against feminism
#8
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@Dr.Franklin
What is the problem with men becoming nuns? For that matter, wouldn't a male nun be a monk? It seems that these gender distinctions are purely arbitrary. Why does allowing women accede to priesthood necessarily preclude men from joining monasteries? Shouldn't we try to allow for both? Also, haven't women been ordained deacons (1)? Who is to that women who have already surmounted many of the rungs of the church hierarchy necessarily reach the summit?

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@blamonkey
there is no problem with men being nuns or monks for that matter, but what was I trying to convey was that if we allow women to be priests, it adds a whole level of complications with hierarchy and genders

I see no problem with the current system. Women are still represented in clergy well
#10
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@Dr.Franklin
What complications emerge? Your original argument suggested that it should go "both ways." If it does go both ways (as I can attest to, knowing quite a few men who joined religious communes which swore fealty to the Christian god, remained chaste, etc.) then why shouldn't women be able to accede? 
#11
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@blamonkey
men are monks, women are nuns

men are priests and women are priests too?
#12
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Women in the senate are referred to as congresswomen. Men are referred to as congressmen. 
Women are presidents and men are presidents too?
If you want, call them a priestess. Also, what is the overall impact of this supposed "confusion?" It just means that more than one gender can be ordained as priests.
#13
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@fauxlaw
Woman holds that high distinction.
Not according to the few misogynistic verses I have shown above. 


A woman does not need the tool of the priesthood. 
Is that your opinion presented as fact?  It appears that the Catholic Church, don't need women priests , period!



She is already endowed with the power of God.
No she isn't and you cannot prove otherwise. 

The best advice  you should be offering  Ragnar is  something positive such as go C of E / Anglican.  The church was crying out for them a few years ago. Yes here we are:

Wanted: young women priests

14 OCTOBER 2016


 
#14
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@Dr.Franklin
Should we allow men to be nuns. 

How would you know these days? 
#15
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@Stephen
No she isn't and you cannot prove otherwise. 
Your mother is sufficient proof. Dolt.
#16
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@fauxlaw
She is already endowed with the power of God.
No she isn't and you cannot prove otherwise. 


Your mother is sufficient proof. Dolt.

 And that is your proof that Ragnar "is already endowed with the power of god", is it.  and you call me "stupid" = "dolt"
/dəʊlt/
Learn to pronounce

noun

  1. a stupid person.

And stop with the personal insults, they are unprovoked and uncalled for and I'm getting sick of them now. If that is all you have simply do not reply to my posts 
#17
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@Stephen
The written word is not pronounced unless you must read it aloud to interpret it. I don't, thanks.

And that is your proof that Ragnar "is already endowed with the power of god" is it.
Who said we're discussing Ragnar being endowed with the priesthood [the power of God]? I believe Ragnar has a word or two about that, and, being a man, has the right and privilege to speak in church about it without any commentary from you, or Timothy, thanks.

Like I said: act like one; be one.

Example of your not following you own advice:

Christians are haughty people
Should anyone be punished eternally?


See above





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#18
Barney
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@Stephen
@Dr.Franklin
Should we allow men to be nuns. 
How would you know these days? 
lol.

Actually there is a decent point suggested in there. It's not like the church has done genetic testing to verify the assignments. Pretty sure the rules have nothing against eunuchs anyway, so it's also not about the presence of a penis.

Further, even with the official ruling on the matter, a future pope could easily bypass that by declaring any female candidate is spiritually male for the purpose of acting in the place of Christ.
#19
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@Barney
(Roman) Catholicism is paganism, i.e. Luciferianism. Since Luciferians worship a trinity that includes a female, that is the "Mother Goddess," it comes as no shock that there's a movement of women seeking authority in Catholic roles of prominence. Pope Francis attempted to retcon Catholicism's position on Homosexuality, so it would be a hard sell to argue against, as a Catholic adherent, that women ought not be availed to the same esteem as their male counterparts. But I have no doubt that these exercise in "liberalizing" the church is a Catholic/Luciferian attempt to pervert the the ancient Hebraic practices.
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@Stephen
1 Timothy 2:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet.
IMO 1 Timothy is a garbage book. About the only good defense of it I've heard, came from a nun teaching at my school. It being a letter responding to questions, to which we don't have the other half of the conversation, and thus are forced to assume context to apologize for it.

I firmly believe it is not an inspired book, as chiefly evidenced by the direct harm it causes. Further had Mary Magdalene (a woman) not taught about Jesus' resurrection, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about some upstart the Romans killed.


1 Corinthians 14:34 New International Version (NIV)
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
This is again a letter to which we have missing context. This one isn't as bad, because we have other context from the same one, in which the author is fine with women prophesying and praying aloud in church, without any censorship. Which goes hand in hand with what you mentioned from Acts.
#21
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@Athias
 (Roman) Catholicism is paganism, i.e. Luciferianism. 

Explain in as few words as possible what   "   Luciferianism " is?  

Maybe she is a pagan, Ragnar, was a viking who worshiped Thor and Odin.  One god is as good as another. 
#22
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@Barney
1 Timothy 2:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man, she must be quiet.
IMO 1 Timothy is a garbage book. About the only good defense of it I've heard, came from a nun teaching at my school. It being a letter responding to questions, to which we don't have the other half of the conversation, and thus are forced to assume context to apologize for it.

I firmly believe it is not an inspired book, as chiefly evidenced by the direct harm it causes. Further had Mary Magdalene (a woman) not taught about Jesus' resurrection, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about some upstart the Romans killed.


1 Corinthians 14:34 New International Version (NIV)
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
This is again a letter to which we have missing context. This one isn't as bad, because we have other context from the same one, in which the author is fine with women prophesying and praying aloud in church, without any censorship. Which goes hand in hand with what you mentioned from Acts.


One of the best post I have ever read on the whole of the religion forum.  Thank you!

I wonder will you be challenged on your opinions such as 1 Timothy being  "  a garbage book " .  or Jesus being simply being yet another pain in the arse  "an upstart" agitator and one of many so called Messiahs who failed miserably to deliver "his people" from the Roman yoke.

#23
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@Stephen
Explain in as few words as possible what   "   Luciferianism " is?  
Then you don't seek my explanation. If you're seeking a general idea of that which constitutes Luciferianism with as few words as possible, then a simple search should suffice.

Maybe she is a pagan, Ragnar, was a viking who worshiped Thor and Odin.  One god is as good as another. 
Non sequitur. I haven't use the qualifier, "good." That is merely your projection.
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#24
Barney
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@Stephen
One of the best post I have ever read on the whole of the religion forum.  Thank you!
You're welcome, and thank you.


I wonder will you be challenged on your opinions such as 1 Timothy being  "  a garbage book " . 
There's defenses of it someone could make. I do use the term in comparison to books which clearly belong in the canon.


or Jesus being simply being yet another pain in the arse  "an upstart" agitator and one of many so called Messiahs who failed miserably to deliver "his people" from the Roman yoke.
To be clear, the evidence of him being the Christian Messiah who rose from the dead, often starts with the teachings of Mary Magdalene. Remove the close relation eye witness account, and he would be more likely remembered as just be one more person the Romans crucified.

...

Maybe she is a pagan, Ragnar, was a viking who worshiped Thor and Odin.  One god is as good as another.
I'm a hetero cis white guy. I'm Catholic and Pastafarian (if we can't laugh at our own ignorance, we're doing religion wrong). I am quarter viking, and half Irish.

Technically Thor and Odin would be worshiped together, as part of the same pantheon. Kinda like how Christians worship both Jesus, God, and us Catholics pray to the saints from time to time.

Specifically due to the example of Thor and Odin, I will argue that one is not as good as another. Within the same pantheon, Loki is way better than both of them combined. Granted Thor has his moments, like when he murdered his own husband on their wedding night (I genuinely find that story about him to be awesome!).

Further, I would argue some religions are better than others. Case in point, my two oldest brothers were obsessed with the Norse Gods, and how they had to die in battle to go to Valhalla. One of them practiced his warrior techniques by murdering the family pets. Okay, he probably would have turned out as varelse anyway; still, giving him a belief system which encourages pursuit of being a psychopath, fed the fire so to speak.
#25
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@Dr.Franklin
No it doesn't lmao. That doesn't mean anything. A priest being a male or female doesn't add another layer at all. There are monks and nuns. They are in the same group so they do not get sexually tempted by one other. That's why they are separate. A religious person would know this

#26
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@Dr.Franklin
men are priests and women are priests too?
How is that in anyway prevalent to religion? I call my priest Father ____. Just say Mother _____
#27
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@Vader
you are incorrect
#28
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@Dr.Franklin
I know religion deeper than you probably do but go on and tell me how I am wrong. I grew up in a house of faith and have studied the bible and religion yet you tell me I'm wrong? Fucking pathetic. At least tell me why? 
#29
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@Vader
Your  personal experience with calling  a priest  father does not matter

I have also grown up a Christian and know a hella lot more about religion and the Bible than you do

Bible verses about women in church

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

So you are wrong, men lead the church service

#30
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@Dr.Franklin
That's what you call a priest. You call them The Reverend or The Reverend Father https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_titles_and_styles

I never fucking said to you that I believe women should be in the church, I said your argument is stupid for why they should not be in the church. It doesn't matter about the titles you give them and your whole nun thing is fucking ridiculous. 

I seriously doubt you know more than me. I am an Orthodox Christian and spent my life in the church with monk relatives. You don't even truly believe in a religion but your own form of it.

Learn how to fucking read before correcting me. I said your reasoning is stupid, not the claim