not voting for biden is effectively letting trump win

Author: n8nrgmi

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#1
n8nrgmi
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i'm sick of these bernie brats thinking they are taking the high road by voting third party or not voting biden. if you dont vote biden, you're just letting trump win. that's a fact. these guys may have caused trump to win in 2016. bernie had his chance but didn't appeal to enough people, he wasn't mainstream enough. so i mean it is a two party system, but given we have primaries, it's more than just two people or visions, ultimately. 

do you really want trump to win so you can pretend you're being principled? 
#2
Barney
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For people in swing states, there's some truth to this notion.
#3
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@n8nrgmi
Yes. I encourage them to sit out. Please do! I will be in full support of them not voting.

Trump 2020
#4
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@n8nrgmi
bernie had his chance but didn't appeal to enough people, he wasn't mainstream enough.
you mean people don't want all the government he would have instituted?
I don't think it would have been possible for him to appeal to enough people, obviously.

given how Biden has treated people, voters, on camera, his inability to complete thoughts and sentences, the thought of him being president should be terrifying regardless of what you think of Trump.
#5
TheRealNihilist
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@n8nrgmi
The only thing close to a Bernie "brat" on this site is HistoryBuff so you should only be asking him.

#6
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@HistoryBuff
Are you going to vote for Biden?
#7
fauxlaw
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Sorry to burst the bubble, but my wealth has increased 51% since Trump was elected, and I've not lost squat by the recent Covid-19 effect. Hell, yeah, I'm voting for him again. If you're just working for money rather than the other way around, that's on y'all. I prefer to make my money work for me. 
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#8
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@fauxlaw
did you sell your investments when the virus hit? cause it looks like u got typical stock gains without the stock losses. 
#9
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@n8nrgmi
Nope. Virtually all my investments are in a no-loss mode - they stay level in a loss, but I gain when it grows. My risk, and reward, is less, but I can, at this point, afford that. I do have one stock that I allow to float, and it's loss was significant, but it did not affect my overall stability. And, I'm still earning income by freelance work though retired. And I have a net worth in the high 7 figures, mostly by real estate. Sue me; I read the Art of the Deal when younger, and I believed the guy who wrote it. Worked for me...
#10
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smart....
#11
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The only sure-fire way to lose your wealth is to sell when the stock hits a low point.
#12
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I am not always a fan of tactical voting but I agree that Trump has been nothing but a sheer shambles throughout.

Both in terms of public image for the US and in policy, he's been terrible. Covid management was yet again an example of how incompetent and money-hungry he is.
#13
HistoryBuff
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I agree that trump is a disaster. he is a terrible president. But i have no delusions that biden would be a good one either. For one, his record is awful. He has been wrong on most major issues for most of his career. He is further right than hilary clinton was. He won't fix any of americas problems because he doesn't want to. Also, he is very clearly having significant cognitive decline. He can barely get through a prepared speech anymore without forgetting what he's talking about, where he is or other critical details. He has, on many occasions, been unable to remember Obama's name while trying to name drop him. 

Even if Biden could win, we would just get a temporary reprieve from insanity. A window of 4 years when the decay and decline of america slowed down. But by Joe's own admission, "nothing would fundamentally change". So after 4 (or maybe 8) years of joe and the corporate democrats doing nothing to help people, they will turn to whatever ridiculous options are available. Maybe it'll be trump again. Maybe it'll be his children and america will be ruled by a dynasty, who knows. 

Bottom line, if Joe wins things will continue to get worse for a few years, then we will end up with an even more right wing president, probably one that isn't quite as stupid as trump. If Biden loses, then people will be horrified and perhaps the corporate demcrats will finally learn they can't ignore and spit on the left and have any hope of winning an election. They didn't learn it with hilary, maybe they will learn it with Biden. 
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#14
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@HistoryBuff
so will u vote for biden? why or why not?
#15
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
so will u vote for biden? why or why not?
I don't think i would vote for Biden. The leadership of the democratic party is full of corrupt, right wing, corportists. They do not represent what the majority of americans actually want. They represent what their rich, asshole donors want. The only thing they like more than money from their donors, is power. Until they learn that selling out america to rich assholes guarantees they lose power, they will keep doing it forever.

Trump is a trainwreck of a president. But he is too stupid to actually accomplish alot of the terrible right wing bullshit that he wishes he could. If corrupt, right wing democrats stay in control of the democratic party, nothing will ever change and America will stay broken.

The bottom line is that a candidate should try to win over voters and appeal to them. Biden does absolutely nothing to appeal to the left (or the working class in general) and just expects to guilt them into voting for them. That is a shitty strategy. If he actually wanted to win, he should actually try to appeal to people. but he can't do that because he is a right wing, corrupt, asshole. 
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@HistoryBuff
so would you be okay if most left wing persons took your stance and didn't vote for biden, thus causing trump to win? 
#17
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
so would you be okay if most left wing persons took your stance and didn't vote for biden, thus causing trump to win? 
I would be ok with the democratic party actually trying to represent the people. At the moment they steadfastly refuse to do that. I would rather Biden lose and the democratic party actually take a look at itself and reform. But sadly, they won't do that. They will simply find someone to blame for the problems they cause. 

Look at hilary. She lost because she was a bad candidate who didn't appeal to people. When she lost she blamed bernie sanders. It was Bernie's fault that people didn't like her. It was bernie's fault the left (rightly) saw her as a corrupt oligarch they wouldn't support. They will probably do the same when Biden loses. 


#18
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@n8nrgmi
I found this interesting video discussing why the left shouldn't support Biden.


The TLDR version is that one of the democratic party's main principles is tell the left to fuck off while they do everything they can to appeal to the right wing. They do this because they know the left doesn't have anywhere else to go. Until the left actually uses the power of their vote to force the democrats to listen, until they actually tell the democrats we will not vote for you if you ignore us, then no left policies will ever be passed. There are essentially 2 corporatist, right wing parties at the moment. Neither has done anything to earn the left's vote. Only by withholding support to politicians that ignore you can you ever hope to get them to listen. 

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#19
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@HistoryBuff
if you dont vote for biden, your prized policies wont get passed anyway. you just have to come to grips with the fact that you can't get everything you want. 

if the far left has a problem getting its policies passed, it's because they are only a faction, a fraction of one party in the usa. the far left has enough sway to change the course of an election, though. if they choose to not vote for the democratic nominee who they didn't want, the worse candidate, trump, will win. and the republicans will continue to win with your mindset. 

it's illogical to vote for anyone other than biden if you want trump to lose, and it's illogical to vote for anyone other than the democratic nominee if you want republicans to lose in the future. 
#20
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
if you dont vote for biden, your prized policies wont get passed anyway.
agreed. both are right wing candidates. The only way any progressive policies will ever get passed is if the demcratic party stops ignoring the left. which they will not do if biden wins. 

you just have to come to grips with the fact that you can't get everything you want.
The left gets absolutely nothing it wants. Both parties do nothing but try to appeal to the right. and to rich people.

if the far left 
It isn't a "far" left issue. It is the entire left. Roughly half the population of the US. 

the far left has enough sway to change the course of an election, though.
this is exactly my point. The left has the power to crush the democrats. The democrats have spent decades telling the left they have no choice but to vote for corrupt, right wing assholes because the alternative is a further right wing asshole. But now the left can teach the democrats that if they ignore the left, they will never win another election. The left has power only if they use it. 

if they choose to not vote for the democratic nominee who they didn't want, the worse candidate, trump, will win. and the republicans will continue to win with your mindset. 
in the short term you have a point. in the medium to long term you don't. If biden gets crushed that will be bad for 4 years. If we can successfully reform the democratic party we can crush the republicans going forward. 

it's illogical to vote for anyone other than biden if you want trump to lose,
Trump is a symptom of a deeper problem. America is broken. Biden getting elected wouldn't fix that. The problems will continue. The same forces that got trump elected would get someone even worse elected after Biden fails to fix anything. 

it's illogical to vote for anyone other than the democratic nominee if you want republicans to lose in the future. 
no, it's the exact opposite. Voting for biden only reinforces their idea that they can ignore a HUGE chunk of americans and still win elections. That is why obama won big (by appealing to the left), and then dems lost 1,000 seats during his 8 years. Playing to left, promising change is a huge selling point. Then shifting back right hands power to republicans. If we want democrats to win elections in the future, we need to ditch right wing fossils like Biden. We need actually progressive policies to win elections and Biden has promised that "nothing will fundamentally change".
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#21
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@HistoryBuff
how do you see in concrete steps the left shifting to a bernie type of person?

here is why i think that approach is flawed. the left isn't as far left as you think. the reason biden and hillary won, is because most people are moderate, even if they are liberals. so what happens with your approach? the left keeps losing because it's split. and it's not even a close split, biden owned bernie once the other moderates dropped out and it was just mano y mano. i dont like our party system, but it's not like a huge swath of people didn't have a chance in the primaries. the only way to maneuver our system, is to build coalitions on the most popular person, and that happens to be biden. 
#22
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
how do you see in concrete steps the left shifting to a bernie type of person?
I don't even understand your point. We are pretty much there right now. Bernie came very close to winning. The only thing that prevented it was all the corrupt corporatist candidates all working together at the last minute. 

here is why i think that approach is flawed. the left isn't as far left as you think. the reason biden and hillary won, is because most people are moderate, even if they are liberals.
this is what the democratic establishment will tell you (ad nausium). The problem is that it isn't true. The term "left" has become a slur. so most people will describe themself as moderate. But that doesn't actually mean anything. That is why left wing policy is extremely popular. But the people who support those policies would still describe themselves as moderate. 

so what happens with your approach? the left keeps losing because it's split. and it's not even a close split, biden owned bernie once the other moderates dropped out and it was just mano y mano. 
no. The democratic party learns a hard lesson. That if you ignore your own base, you will get crushed. They then start to listen to their own base, shift to left leaning policies that are extremely popular and start actually winning elections. 

 i dont like our party system, but it's not like a huge swath of people didn't have a chance in the primaries. the only way to maneuver our system, is to build coalitions on the most popular person, and that happens to be biden. 
that kind of thinking is why america is in the problematic state it is in. Corrupt dems and corrupt republicans have traded off power for decades. Each have a slightly different flavor, but both are corrupt right wing, corportists. That is why the middle class continues to get wiped out while the rich get richer. Voting for biden is just a vote to continue the broken system that got us to this point and gave us trump. It wont fix anything, it only prolongs the problem.

The only solution is to break the cycle. The dems need to learn that right wing policy is a guaranteed loss. 
#23
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@n8nrgmi
i'm sick of these bernie brats thinking they are taking the high road by voting third party or not voting biden. if you dont vote biden, you're just letting trump win. that's a fact. 

The fact that Bernie had to come out and distance himself from his own campaign communications director (who was refusing to endorse Biden) shows how pathetically stubborn some Bernie supporters are.... I think even Bernie himself is starting to realize that a majority of people in his base are irrational know-nothings who dont have a rudimentary understanding of how the political system even works. 
#24
HistoryBuff
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@Imabench
The fact that Bernie had to come out and distance himself from his own campaign communications director (who was refusing to endorse Biden) shows how pathetically stubborn some Bernie supporters are.... I think even Bernie himself is starting to realize that a majority of people in his base are irrational know-nothings who dont have a rudimentary understanding of how the political system even works. 
no, Bernie is continuing to display the same weaknesses he showed during the campaign. He refuses to truly attack the corruption of the democratic party. Biden is corrupt. He has ruined potentially millions of lives with policies he strongly pushed over his career. Bernie refused to mention any of it. He wanted to win solely on the merits of his own ideas without ever pointing out how terrible Biden is. 

Bernie has folded. He gave up on getting any kind of concession from Biden. Now, the reason for that is that Biden has been 100% clear he doesn't give a single fuck about the left or what they think. He will ignore them and fight against them and there was no way in hell he was going to give bernie anything. Bernie's choices were to fold or to fight. He chose to fold. But that doesn't mean anyone else needs to support Biden. 



#25
TheRealNihilist
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@HistoryBuff
I would be ok with the democratic party actually trying to represent the people. At the moment they steadfastly refuse to do that. I would rather Biden lose and the democratic party actually take a look at itself and reform.
You do know you are being selfish right? Your an accelerationist which is a problem for the people in the concentration camps, trans rights being on hold, abortion, any semblance of a climate change approach plus more.

Why don't you care about the people instead virtue signal as if you do? 

I guess you are too well off to actually be impacted by these issues so you are just going to sit and wait for 4 years posturing as if you did good when in fact you didn't prevent bad from occurring. Arrogance and the inability to understand this is mind-blowing for me but I am talking to a person who wouldn't vote for Biden against Trump thus cancelling a right wingers vote. 

Any sound reasoning has flew right over your head. Here is what you clearly miss:
We ought to reduce the level of evil in the world
It will be a race between Biden and Trump
Trump is more evil than Biden therefore by voting for Biden you are reducing the evil around the world
Voting for Biden is the best option
Failing to do this means you don't care about reducing evil
#26
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You do know you are being selfish right?

no, no i am not. 

Your an accelerationist which is a problem for the people in the concentration camps, trans rights being on hold, abortion, any semblance of a climate change approach plus more.
so your argument is that some people will suffer under trump but wouldn't suffer (as much) under biden. So we are morally obligated to make millions and millions continue to suffer in the current broken system instead. You are advocating sacrificing the many to help the few. 


Why don't you care about the people instead virtue signal as if you do? 
i do care about people. The difference appears to be that my concern extends further than the next 4 years. It isn't only about what happens for 4 years. It is about fixing fundamental problems that ruin millions of lives. that kill people. Trump is a symptom of a disease. Electing Biden takes away that symptom but allows the disease to continue to ravage america. It won't fix america's problems and it will absolutely lead to someone crazier (and probably smarter) being elected once people realize that Biden cant and wont fix anything. 

We ought to reduce the level of evil in the world
electing biden doesn't do that though. You just make that evil slightly less obvious. The dems and their corruption are the reason we have trump in the 1st place. He is the symptom of their decades of failed policy. Unless that policy is fixed, then electing biden is just a stall and we will get someone worse. 

Trump is more evil than Biden therefore by voting for Biden you are reducing the evil around the world
as per the answer above, no it will not. It covers it up for a bit. that's all. 

Voting for Biden is the best option
Failing to do this means you don't care about reducing evil
also no. Voting for biden is the best choice for the next 4 years. After that point, the pendulum will swing back to whatever crazy person replaces trump. maybe even trump for a 2nd term, after Biden fails to fix any problems. Voting for biden puts off problems, it fixes nothing. 
#27
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@HistoryBuff
So we are morally obligated to make millions and millions continue to suffer in the current broken system instead. You are advocating sacrificing the many to help the few. 
Even if this is true less suffering is better than more suffering. Biden offers that. Trump offers more suffering. By you not voting for Biden you are okay with the increase in suffering thus admitting you don't actually care about suffering.
The difference appears to be that my concern extends further than the next 4 years.
Oh wait you think Biden is lying about his climate plan and you don't actually care about people, only after 4 years of suffering and even then you don't care until they agree with you. This is selfish.
Electing Biden takes away that symptom but allows the disease to continue to ravage america.
Accepting this means you must vote for Biden. If you don't then you don't care about reducing harm. Your virtue signalling as if you do.
electing biden doesn't do that though. You just make that evil slightly less obvious. The dems and their corruption are the reason we have trump in the 1st place. He is the symptom of their decades of failed policy. Unless that policy is fixed, then electing biden is just a stall and we will get someone worse. 
Biden is better on abortion, healthcare, gun control, trans rights, concentration camps, climate change, supreme court justices and more. Your selfish and you actually want people to suffer because he isn't doing enough of what you want even though it is better than Trump.
Voting for biden is the best choice for the next 4 years. After that point, the pendulum will swing back to whatever crazy person replaces trump. maybe even trump for a 2nd term
More of your predictions just like how Bernie was going to be elected but he didn't. You should really take a step back and understand you have a lot to learn but I guess virtue signalling is going be in the way of that. 
Voting for biden puts off problems, it fixes nothing. 
Even if this is true putting off problems is better than continuing and increasing on said problems which is what Trump is doing. Your just a bad person at this point willfully acknowledging harm Trump has done yet doing nothing about it instead telling everyone else to wait 4 more years of suffering and vote for my candidate and if they don't have another 4 years of suffering. Thankfully people like you are a minuscule part of the party and useless which has shown to be the case with Bernie's election "success".

If your next comment isn't I will vote for Biden then I will be as absent as the Bernie supporters. 

#28
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Even if this is true less suffering is better than more suffering. Biden offers that. Trump offers more suffering. By you not voting for Biden you are okay with the increase in suffering thus admitting you don't actually care about suffering.
Trump winning would be more immediate suffering for 4 years. Then potentially decades of less suffering. Biden offers decades of slightly less suffering than trump, but still alot of suffering for alot of people. If you really wanted to limit the amount of suffering, then the democrats need to reform and Biden needs to lose. 

Oh wait you think Biden is lying about his climate plan and you don't actually care about people, only after 4 years of suffering and even then you don't care until they agree with you. This is selfish.
How is it selfish to want to solve problems that have plagued america for decades? Voting for biden won't do that, it will only further ingrain in them that they don't have to reform in order to win. It will put off actually fixing america's problems for years and potentially lead to an even worse demagogue when people seek an even more desperate solution to the problems democrats have caused. 

Electing Biden takes away that symptom but allows the disease to continue to ravage america.
Accepting this means you must vote for Biden. If you don't then you don't care about reducing harm. Your virtue signalling as if you do.
Your argument makes no sense. Going to war with the nazi's caused immediate suffering. beating them caused long term prosperity and reduced suffering. By your logic we should have surrendered to the nazis because fighting them was too much harm. 

Biden is better on abortion, healthcare, gun control, trans rights, concentration camps, climate change, supreme court justices and more. Your selfish and you actually want people to suffer because he isn't doing enough of what you want even though it is better than Trump.
Biden is also a corrupt, right wing, oligarch who doesn't want to fix virtually any of the biggest problems in america. He wants to paper over them because he was involved in causing the problems in the 1st place. It isn't selfish to want to actually fix problems rather than paper over them. 

Voting for biden is the best choice for the next 4 years. After that point, the pendulum will swing back to whatever crazy person replaces trump. maybe even trump for a 2nd term
More of your predictions just like how Bernie was going to be elected but he didn't. You should really take a step back and understand you have a lot to learn but I guess virtue signalling is going be in the way of that. 
people voted for obama because they wanted hope and change. Obama immedately shifted right once he was elected and put all the same corrupt clinton officials back into office the second he was elected. The dems then lost something like 1000 seats in america. The next president was Trump who promised change too. If biden wins "nothing will fundamentally change". For this particular moment, that sounds like a good thing since trump is crazy. But then people will remember that things sucked before trump too. And they will still suck under Biden. And they will look for the next politician promising change from the right. 

Even if this is true putting off problems is better than continuing and increasing on said problems which is what Trump is doing. Your just a bad person at this point willfully acknowledging harm Trump has done yet doing nothing about it instead telling everyone else to wait 4 more years of suffering and vote for my candidate and if they don't have another 4 years of suffering.
I am advocating that 4 years of pain is worth it to fix america's problems. You are saying that 4 years of pain isn't worth it and america should stay broken. Millions should die, go bankrupt and have their lives ruin in perpetuity because 4 years of pain is too much for you to bear. Which one of us is selfish?
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#29
n8nrgmi
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@HistoryBuff

biden had sixty percent of the vote in a match up against bernie, and bernie had thirty percent. twice as much. it wasn't a close race


consider single payer. a slight majority want medicare for all, until they hear the details. that's what ive seen in polls. when you say you are going to outlaw insurance, and it may or may not raise taxes, they aren't interested. (i understand it doesn't need to raise taxes, but that's the thinking here) effectively most want a public option, which biden wants. 

consider universal housing, education, and child care. i haven't seen the polls but no one ever talks about these things except the hard left. most people care about the deficiit, which bernie and the like dont ever mention. even if they raised taxes to pay for these things, the deficit is still there, and the republicans would just repeal those taxes and the deficit would be that much worse off. normal people understand we can't afford these things. 

your mistake is thinking the base is behind bernie but that somehow or another the establishment stole it from him. not true. 

and this is all coming from me, a guy that was gonna vote for bernie in the primary. (for his healthcare ideas, and plug my nose to the rest. (i'm effectively a moderate with a liberal bias))

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#30
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as a minor point, there may be majority support for universal education. but the other two things i mentioned i dont see it. and even for many of those of us who might want education universal, it should be done in a cost effective way, not just an open checkbook and throwing money at the problem.