Another thread about free will

Author: keithprosser

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#61
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@keithprosser
Typical of such an internal states would be 'desires' - say a desire to to go Bordeaux.   Which raises the question of what is a 'desire' made of.   It is a desire a physical object?   If so, I'd like to know how that works!   but if a desire isn't a physical object, then there is no guarantee it is subject to ordinary causality.
Does an insect have a desire to consume sustenance and procreate?

Does an insect therefore have free will? 

#62
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@Shed12
Why wouldn't a balloon have free will?
Presumably because it has no soul, which would actually be quite difficult to prove.

#63
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@Mopac
I don't care about anything you've said. You are superstitious.
And The Ultimate Reality is not contingent on humans to exist. If that was the case. It wouldn't be The Ultimate Reality.
There is no reality without God, so either you do believe God exists or you are just saying what you think sounds convincing.
Just say, "The Ontological Argument".


#64
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@3RU7AL
No.
#65
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@Mopac
Please enlighten me as to my superstitions.
#66
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@disgusted
You have an understanding of God that isn't The Ultimate Reality, which makes you superstitious.
#67
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@Mopac
Please enlighten me as to my superstitions.
Gods don't exist ergo I have no understanding of that which doesn't exist, in that we are the same.
#68
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@disgusted
I can't turn on a broken bulb.



#69
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@Mopac
You may run away now. You are finshed.
Godists have superstitions, I don't. But your failures are eternal.bwuahahahahaha
#70
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@disgusted
Superstition

Full Definition
  • 1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
    b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
  • 2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

#71
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@3RU7AL
Presumably because it has no soul, which would actually be quite difficult to prove.
Soul = biologic ergo synonyms biologic/soul.  Simple minimal brainer conclusion.

70 - 90% water. Water { liquid } based on 8 electrons and tetra{4}hedral configurations.



13 - 17 billion years ago eternally existent, finite, occupied space Universe was a liquid?

Quark-gluon Plasma as perfect liquid

..."Super spin
The results reveal that RHIC collisions create the most vortical fluid ever, a QGP spinning faster than a speeding tornado, more powerful than the fastest spinning fluid on record. "So the most ideal fluid with the smallest viscosity also has the most vorticity," Lisa said."...

...."Particle collisions recreating the quark-gluon plasma (QGP) that filled the early universe reveal that droplets of this primordial soup swirl far faster than any other fluid. The new analysis shows that the 'vorticity' of the QGP surpasses the whirling fluid dynamics of super-cell tornado cores and Jupiter's Great Red Spot, and even beats out the fastest spin record held by nanodroplets of superfluid helium."....

Gluon { nine types } = strong sub-nuclear attractive force

Quarks { 36 } = 18 quarks and 18 anti-quarks

Free = degrees of freedom

Will = spirit-of-intent ergo metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept


#72
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@keithprosser
The same way you and I do of course.... by exercising  its free will!

But if 'free will does not exist' there there would be no behavoural difference between a decision making making robot and a Browninan motion robot.

There are entities without free will - (toy balloons for example) and entities with free will (airline pilots).   With that perpective free will comes out aas a complex and interesting phenomenon.

Just because something is complex doesn't necessarily mean it has free will. It sort of reminds me how civilizations used to believe the sun and other celestial objects represented gods. It comes down to a lack of understanding. 
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#73
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@Reece
The difference between a balloon gong from glasgow to london and a pilot flying to same route is that one ended up there and the other wanted to go there.  
#74
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@keithprosser
wanted to go there
Desire is just a state of the brain subject to physical laws. Where does "free will" come in?

#75
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@keithprosser
The difference between a balloon gong from glasgow to london and a pilot flying to same route is that one ended up there and the other wanted to go there.   
I'm not sure it's fair to say the pilot "wanted" to "go there".  It seems more likely they were told to "go there" and paid to "go there" and warned of horrific consequences if they did not "go there" within the acceptable margin of error.

#76
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how would you classify making the wrong choice knowing it's the wrong choice?

#77
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure it's fair to say the pilot "wanted" to "go there".
Any who desire/choose/want to are not coerced.

They are intimately associated with a finite set of  invioate cosmic laws/principles that, are associated with occupied space, ergo cause, effect and resultant.


..."Tetherball: In the "me" ball in Universe 12 structuralrestraints arenecessary to eliminate all the degrees of freedom becauseall the initial four restraints areconnected to the surface of the "me" sphere and notto its center. The four points oftangency describe a square, and they permit local twistand torque because a square isunstable. So each tension has to be replaced by threetension restraints to produce atensegrity structure within which the "me" ball maybe omninonredundantly immobilized."....



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#78
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@drafterman
Desire is just a state of the brain subject to physical laws. Where does "free will" come in?

Is that a fact or a (very reasonable) hypothesis?  I would say it is whether desires are phyical brain states that is in question, even though it is what I prefer to believe!



#79
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@keithprosser
Is that a fact or a (very reasonable) hypothesis?  I would say it is whether desires are phyical brain states that is in question, even though it is what I prefer to believe!
You tell me. You're the one positing the existence of some sort of "free will." It would seem that this requires the existence of something not subject to physical laws and therefore operates independently of anything physical.

There is no evidence that such a thing exists.

#80
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@drafterman

Breathing is a decision made on an unconscious level and yet I can make a conscious decision to stop my breathing.
#81
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@TwoMan
Every "conscious" decision you make is made at a subconscious level first. Then you become aware of it. Anything you think you are making a conscious decision on is something your brain already decided to do. I am not talking merely about involuntary and autonomic functions. I'm talking about all functions.
#82
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@drafterman
I understand what you mean. I am saying that the conscious mind has the ability to alter a decision the unconscious mind has made. Otherwise, we would have no need for a conscious mind.
#83
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@TwoMan
What I'm saying is that there are no conscious decisions. Just after the fact conscious rationalizations. For your scenario, it's just the subconscious brain deciding to do something different and your conscious mind becoming aware of it later.

And given things like alien hand syndrome and other things, it's clear that the conscious mind isn't needed (though it probably plays an important role).

#84
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@drafterman
it's clear that the conscious mind isn't needed (though it probably plays an important role).
That makes no sense. You are contradicting yourself. What role does the conscious mind play if all decisions are made by the unconscious mind?

#85
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@TwoMan
We behave as part of a feedback loop. We take in information through our senses, our brain makes decisions and sends commands to our body, we react, this changes the external environment and therefore the input we receive.

Consciousness is part of that loop, but it operates after the unconscious mind. We don't need to be consciously aware of the input and the brain has already decided on how to respond before we're consciously aware of it.


#86
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@drafterman
I'm not sure how that answers my question. What does the conscious mind do?
#87
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@TwoMan
I'm not sure I know. But it's clear that it's not necessary.
#88
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@TwoMan
What does the conscious mind do?
1} objectively harvests information { bits }

2} sorts information into sets { bits  }

3} discovers patterns and principles { bits }

4} subjectively applys patterns and principles to technologies that support humans and integrity of Unvierse

Thank you B Fuller.

Conscious mind also does communication, mathmatics, language, arts, sailing, bicycle riding, competition, love making, eating, recalls and remmbers, discovers the unconscious mind, etc

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#89
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@TwoMan
What does the conscious mind do?
The problematical thing the conscious mind does is manifest subjective experience.   That is what we have no idea how it comes about or how we could implement it in a machine.


#90
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@drafterman
There is no evidence that such a thing exists.

Well stated.