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@disgusted
That is my hope and faith.
For Stephen - Prophecy is Reasonable and Logical to Believe
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@Stephen
But I have explained to you many times now that I do believe some to these biblical events and characters to be historical truths...So stop with your preaching and start explaining a few of the anomalous and two faced contradictory statements coming from these gospellers...Listen is all I have done on the – religion – forum is point out these vague and ambiguous half truths to anyone who cares to read them......I decided to read the scriptures for myself and almost immediately seen what an absolute load of contradictory, ambiguous vague nonsense it all appeared to be... on the surface...But I did prophesy that the point would be wasted on you and the point would fly clean over your head.. which it did...I don’t believe in prophecy which leaves me with nothing to discuss......I don’t believe in prophecy...I read the scriptures different to you. I believe I see a different story altogether, a hidden story that the gospellers are at pains and are desperately struggling to hide.
I don't see how our conversation would be productive since you have made up your mind and are not open to the discussion. You will funnel everything through this bias ("I don’t believe in prophecy which leaves me with nothing to discuss"). I will focus on those who are willing to reason it out. I'm not going to flog a dead horse (i.e., wasting my time, and yours).
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@PGA2.0
Post 36 of this thread. SkepticalOne wrote
You are attempting to have Stephen prove you wrong rather than prove yourself right.It is a lazy and dishonest strategy to make your view seem valid. I'm pretty sure I've already called this what it is: an attempt to shift the burden.
PGA2.0 wrote I don't see how our conversation would be productive since you have made up your mind and are not open to the discussion.
Not this particular conversation of so called “prophecy”. But there again, you are not open to discussing these anomalous verses coming from these gospels, are you? verses that you should be well read in and able to handle without effort.
Ifeel this is simply because you cannot explain them away. You seemed to have learned also to steer clear of any of my threads. Those too it appears contain awkward things that you’d rather not discuss because they are true and awkward and simply unfathomable even to you not to mention uncomfortable for you. But I believe I can explain the reasonably.
Go readmy new thread on the miracle of Lazarus and then explain to those reading here what is actually meant by verse:
““Let us also go,that we may die with him.” John 11:16
No. I didn’t think so.
That I Feel, is simply because you cannot explain them away. You seemed to have learned also to steer clear of any of my threads. Those too, it appears, contain awkward things that you’d rather not discuss because they are true and awkward and embarrassing to you.
You have simply slinked away and started a thread directed at me personally in the hope of tempting me to prove you wrong rather than you support your own claim. That Is cowardly, evasive and dishonest and I seen right through it. It is up to you to prove for yourself your claims; the burden does not lie with me!
PGA2.0 I'm not going to flog a dead horse
Not even on your own thread? But it is a dead horse in my opinion, I have said, I don’t believe in prophecy. Here’s an idea, why not try explaining away some of the gospel anomalies that I have highlighted: such as the whole story of the raising of Lazarus? It has to be the most famous story in these unreliable scriptures next to the resurrection of the Christ himself. But before you you do, take note of the quote I have repeated from SkepticalOne, above at the top of this post .
Your cowardly and sly deceit hasn't gone unnoticed.
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@PGA2.0
--> @disgusted wrote
Are you going to live forever?
ReplyPGA2.0
That is my hope and faith.
Why does one have to die first to "live" forever?
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@Stephen
That is my hope and faith.
Well understandable for some, but hope and faith (as in accepting something without observation) are not needed in understanding the nature of conscious soul and its eternal attributes.
Why does one have to die first to "live" forever?
They don't, the soul is already by nature eternal as well as its Source. The conscious part of you (soul) never dies, the soul moves in and out of embodiments depending on either where it desires or where it was sent according to its Karma.
However, the BODY must die for the soul to leave that form and have another experience. Then the soul transitions from the death of the body.
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@EtrnlVw
That is my hope and faith.
the above was not my quote. It was in fact a quote from PGA2.0. I did make that clear. I wish you would have too.
They don't, the soul is already by nature eternal as well as its Source. The conscious part of you (soul) never dies, the soul moves in and out of embodiments
And you evidence for that is?
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@EtrnlVw
However, the BODY must die for the soul to leave that form and have another experience.
yes just as I thought, no surprises there: one has to die first. Wouldn't it be just simpler to give everlasting life while i am still in my comfortable and beautiful shell. I am very happy in my own skin. I cannot see the problem.
Could you explain why I cannot keep this shell that I have had for over 60 years now?
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@EtrnlVw
However, the BODY must die for the soul to leave that form and have another experience. Then the soul transitions from the death of the body.
I have read what you wrote a few times now. and I am absolutely baffled by it. It contradicts the gospels version of resurrection, totally in my opinion. Lazarus was "resurrected" into his own body.
John 11: 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.John 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Jesus was "resurrected" into his own body too, wounds included.
John 20:24-29 King James Version (KJV)
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Care to explain, Etrnl Vw, ?
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@PGA2.0
First, when you say, "How is it not obvious to you there is more than one truth?" and "All religion is intertwined," it is counter-intuitive
I meant to say there is more than one way to the truth. That was my bad. Every religion is intertwined in that they are seeking enlightenment and a good way to live to get to it. The only differences are they have different explanations and methods. That is bc it's man-made and an attempt to define a spiritual reality. So yeah, they will have similarities and differences, but they all have a common thread of "live good."
Second, while feelings are personal to the individual, many times they are just that and nothing else.
So you would believe my experiences if i wrote them in a book? That is basically what you are saying. See, i believe that prophecy can happen. I believe miraculous stuff can happen bc they have happened to me. Therefore, i don't discount crazy spiritual experiences. However, i know many people have them. People of all faiths and beliefs. I don't even count my own most the time bc there are so many other people that have these stories. You don't have to believe me, or anyone else, but you know what corroborates that they do happen? It's the frequency of them happening and people saying it happened. What you are doing is focusing on one book and a certain amount of people's experiences. You aren't counting the countless others that have had spiritual experiences. I find that to be close-minded and a bit tunnel visioned on one book. You are believing in one factor bc it is written in a book. Open your eyes, man. I am telling you, as one person out of many others i am sure can tell you, i have had spiritual experiences. They are not consistent with the Bible... I'm sure there are many others that are, but there are just as many others that aren't. You are not counting it bc they didn't write it down... that's just willfully being ignorant.
Third, if God is not as you FEEL or suppose, without any credible evidence but your personal feelings, you are risking everything.
You haven't been paying attention... it isn't just my feelings. It is logic, it is thought, it is experiences, it's observation. That isn't just my feelings. I have weighed all the sides. How many other religions have you studied? How many other philosophies on the afterlife have you considered? How many other people have you listened to? Bc i have done all the above for 20 some out years now and continuing. Like i said, you have tunnel vision on one possibility... and yeah, i'll call it a possibility bc i don't know anything for sure. It is just much less likely than other spiritual platforms.
When you treat Jesus like any other religious figure you are missing the entire point of Christianity. He is not
Yes he is. Just like millions of other religions figures. However, i think his story is the ultimate definition of love. The way it happened, what happened, is a perfect example of what it means to love. Isn't that accepting "Jesus" when i say that? Why do Christians want more? Like i said, i clearly see spiritual concepts and beyond... there is no other way he could have shown his love is for everyone than the way his story goes. That is spiritually brilliant... i know this, but i further know this entity isn't narcissistic and doesn't care that i have a different spiritual belief... i have a different belief for an afterlife... as simple as that.
So, you had better be sure you have a TRUE belief before you die
I am 70% sure. Which is 30% more than any other afterlife belief i have heard of. I have defined why... which is a question you didn't answer. How does one heaven account for multiple different paradises? Like i said, the common definition i have heard from theists of heaven would be my hell, literally. How do you account for that?
Sixth, maybe the "spiritual community" you hang around thinks that of you
Fifth i didn't answer since i already did, it's not just feelings. I don't hang out with a spiritual community, i study spirituality. That is how i know which percentage of people have a similar belief to mine. And all of those people call this true enlightenment. But like i said, i don't like that phrase. I only like what it means... spiritual intelligence. You really didn't challenge me other than make me say the same thing... i had a list of questions i wrote last in what my spiritual platform answers. All of those i don't think the Bible answers sufficiently enough to warrant a belief. Those aren't just feelings, like i said earlier i have weighed it and considered it and found it lacking.
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@Stephen
However, the BODY must die for the soul to leave that form and have another experience.
yes just as I thought, no surprises there: one has to die first. Wouldn't it be just simpler to give everlasting life while i am still in my comfortable and beautiful shell. I am very happy in my own skin. I cannot see the problem.Could you explain why I cannot keep this shell that I have had for over 60 years now?
First of all you wouldn't want to live eternal on earth I'm sure you probably wouldn't want that if you knew what exists beyond this experience, as well you wouldn't want to see what you would look like lol, because you are subject to the anatomy of any body period (unless by some miracle). The physical body as well as all other coverings or layers of the soul have an expiration date, but the soul itself embodies form so it can have different experiences on different levels, including higher spiritual worlds and other planets besides this one.
The soul itself actually has five layers/coverings in which the physical shell is the outermost physical layer. So you don't want to be stuck here forever you want to leave this body and have greater experiences than just this one here.
The reason the soul cannot stay obviously is due to the anatomy of the physical body alone, it decomposes and eventually dies off you have no control over that this experience was meant to be quick and temporal only the nature of the soul itself is eternal, without embodiment. Yet..... if the soul has to return it must reincarnate, and you can if that is your desires but you have to loose the current one.
Before I get to your other questions, keep in mind I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, in other words by responses and experiences are not limited to the Christian doctrine alone. I examine all forms of spirituality and spiritual truth.
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@Stephen
That is my hope and faith.the above was not my quote. It was in fact a quote from PGA2.0. I did make that clear. I wish you would have too.
Sorry, I was answering it for YOU (figured you would know), didn't mean to confuse anyone. Next time I'll distinguish that my bad.
"They don't, the soul is already by nature eternal as well as its Source. The conscious part of you (soul) never dies, the soul moves in and out of embodiments"
And you evidence for that is?
My own observations and study. Consider though testimonial evidence for the soul in numbers is beyond any single subject by far. But due to the nature of the soul and spiritual based experiences they transcend what the physical shell/body perceives alone. So, say a material based study like science would be limited to the material medium and material experience, then you have to be willing to look at sources outside that, that correlate with the nature of the soul and the Creator. So if you look at religion as a whole, NDE's, OBE's, soul travel (astral travel) and all forms of spirituality the evidence is pretty obvious and should be at least considered.
Outside that, you have personal experience and observation which is direct experience, but again you have to understand it is testimonial based. But this involves a persons participation and involvement. Many people are restricted by their own beliefs, mindsets and ideologies that they have their complete focus only on one reality or experience and therefore cut themselves off from any type of possible observation beyond it.
I've seen spiritual beings, I've had many spiritual experiences and I practice the abilities to perceive outside the physical body and mind....you can by all means observe the nature of your own soul and consciousness away from the body and mind.....so yes, there is evidence but you have to be willing to consider sources and consider getting alone and pulling back from the physical body, focusing on the observer of the mind, body and emotions. Those are things you only use to navigate creation but you are the one experiencing right through the layers of your conscious soul. You can learn to release those and transcend the physical layer and physical experience.
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@Stephen
However, the BODY must die for the soul to leave that form and have another experience. Then the soul transitions from the death of the body.
I have read what you wrote a few times now. and I am absolutely baffled by it. It contradicts the gospels version of resurrection, totally in my opinion. Lazarus was "resurrected" into his own body.John 11: 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.John 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.Jesus was "resurrected" into his own body too, wounds included.
And what problem do you have with the soul of Lazarus re-entering that body? one, you have what is perceived as a miracle, in other words something uncommon......two the body of Lazarus did not die of old age so it still had some time left to age.....and three this was supposed to be a sign to the people so again, this is considered a miracle not a natural or normal event. As I wrote previously, generally speaking (unless a miracle) the soul is subject to the physical body, so then it MUST eventually leave as did eventually Lazarus.
John 20:24-29 King James Version (KJV)24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Care to explain, Etrnl Vw, ?
Care to explain why you don't understand what a miracle is? that means it rarely happens....is NOT supposed to happen lol, that's what makes these accounts a miracle. But we are not discussing a miracle or something that never happens but what will happen to YOUR body and soul.
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@Stephen
Care to explain, Etrnl Vw, ?
There's two reasons why Jesus raised the body of Lazarus, Jesus was saddened by the premature death...…(and actually many NDE's that do experience brain death and left the physical body have HAD to come back because their time in that body was not over). So it is possible for the soul to re-enter if the body can be resuscitated reasonably, but they must be permitted to do so. The second reason was already stated, is was a miracle and a sign. Either way the soul must leave the physical shell at some point when the body can no longer sustain the soul.
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@Outplayz
Every religion is intertwined in that they are seeking enlightenment and a good way to live to get to it. The only differences are they have different explanations and methods. That is bc it's man-made and an attempt to define a spiritual reality. So yeah, they will have similarities and differences, but they all have a common thread of "live good."
Good observation, I like to say "all paths of religion/spirituality serve the same underlying purpose for the soul". Mixed in with a bunch of other stuff lol. They're also defined by what level of conscious awareness they operate from, so while all forms of spirituality are for growth of the soul some are just more accurate than others, or more advanced you could say.
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@EtrnlVw
Many people are restricted by their own beliefs, mindsets and ideologies that they have their complete focus only on one reality or experience and therefore cut themselves off from any type of possible observation beyond it.
This is the gist of what i am trying to have PGA understand. When you are hyper-focused on one possibility... that is all you will experience. Your "own paradise." But, the closer you get to the source and its infinite possibilities... you can have all types of experiences which i have had bc of my mindset... and many others as well. This is direct evidence.
First of all you wouldn't want to live eternal on earth I'm sure you probably wouldn't want that if you knew what exists beyond this experience
If they only knew the truth in this... this is precisely what he isn't understanding yet. How is it that their paradise is my hell? They can't answer it bc if they did, they would start realizing the source hypothesis.
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@EtrnlVw
That's crazy you just replied when i replied... i was confused for a second thinking how the hell did you reply so fast lol.
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@EtrnlVw
Where's Jane... that was a synchronicity at its finest lol.
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@Outplayz
Many people are restricted by their own beliefs, mindsets and ideologies that they have their complete focus only on one reality or experience and therefore cut themselves off from any type of possible observation beyond it.
This is the gist of what i am trying to have PGA understand. When you are hyper-focused on one possibility... that is all you will experience. Your "own paradise." But, the closer you get to the source and its infinite possibilities... you can have all types of experiences which i have had bc of my mindset... and many others as well. This is direct evidence.
I agree with that, it's unfortunate anyone would want to limit such a diverse and eternal reality and reject everything else involved. It's almost as if they ignore all of creation is within the first Source, which would be omnipresent, within all things.
First of all you wouldn't want to live eternal on earth I'm sure you probably wouldn't want that if you knew what exists beyond this experience
If they only knew the truth in this... this is precisely what he isn't understanding yet. How is it that their paradise is my hell? They can't answer it bc if they did, they would start realizing the source hypothesis.
The Creator understands it and the soul understands it, but the soul trapped or focused in creation doesn't lol. It's part of the play though, it is what makes people believe their views are special. Well they are special, beliefs are a unique expression of each individual and many have truth to them, it's what gives them purpose even if they need it or not. The fun part, is when the soul wakes up from the grind or one perception and they realize how much more fun creation will be, each soul will eventually wake up, but as well that soul can play the heaven and hell game and the war between the two for as long as they like. It's fun for the soul to want to believe there's some God out there and they have to find It, it's not as fun to realize that the soul and the Creator are one, the nature of the soul is of the same nature as "God", just a tiny version of it experiencing in the worlds of duality, time and space, form and contrast.
The fun doesn't end at realizing the nature of the soul though, the disappointment is short lived lol, because now the tables turn.....instead of existing within created worlds (which we can always do BTW) and believing you are subject to all of it, now we exist by our own creative abilities and expressions whatever they are for the individual, or it could be that the soul transfers to one of the higher created realms/planets but either way the soul is meant to progress on its long, long journey. The realm we are experiencing at this moment is a very limited, restricted experience and the souls here are locked into a one-dimensional focus and it's that way for a reason here. But as the soul grows curious it opens more doors and more possibilities outside what they once accepted. Creation is awesome in that it destines what the soul wants, desires and or commits in actions through the many created worlds and multi verses eventually becoming a creative dreamer itself.
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@Outplayz
Yeah lol, I was thinking that too. Hey! where IS Jane??
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@Outplayz
That's crazy you just replied when i replied... i was confused for a second thinking how the hell did you reply so fast lol.
I know, I went to hit the send button and my notification lit up. Had I went to take a piss it woulda never happened lol.
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@EtrnlVw
I agree with that, it's unfortunate anyone would want to limit such a diverse and eternal reality and reject everything else involved. It's almost as if they ignore all of creation is within the first Source, which would be omnipresent, within all things.
That was going to be my next topic to define... "god" itself. That is something religious people can't do by design almost. They always use the excuse that you cannot imagine god, you cannot define god... i've never understood this line of thinking. Yeah... maybe you can't define something infinite bc you are a finite being... but you can definitely experience it and feel it. At which time you will understand what it means to be an infinite entity which will help you scratch the surface. That is why me and you may find disagreement on certain attributes... bc we are trying to define the infinite. It's crazy, but i wouldn't say you "cannot" understand god. You so can.
First of all you wouldn't want to live eternal on earth I'm sure you probably wouldn't want that if you knew what exists beyond this experience
I 100% agree with this. That is why i am a fictional realist, but i usually leave that out of the argument... it's a little too much for most to imagine.
The fun part, is when the soul wakes up from the grind or one perception and they realize how much more fun creation will be, each soul will eventually wake up, but as well that soul can play the heaven and hell game and the war between the two for as long as they like.
100% with you again... i really hope this is true and we're are on to something. I have my fingers crossed.
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@EtrnlVw
Had I went to take a piss it woulda never happened lol.
HAhah
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@Outplayz
It's crazy, but i wouldn't say you "cannot" understand god. You so can.
Ahh, I can't stand it when people say that, it limits their own understanding and even their future experiences. Sure, you can't "fathom" an eternal reality with an infinite mind and containing all knowledge, but the basic concepts, and nature of the Source is very comprehensible, almost simplistic. It mimics our own experience on a tiny scale. That's because we are that very nature, we are the expression of That. Therefore it is our destiny to know, it is where we originated. Even religious fundamentalists should know that all souls and all of creation comes out from the very heart of God, or the first Source. I like to say "heart" of God, because that's truly what we are experiencing. It's the very nature and desire of the Source to create and express itself, everything and all of life come out from that omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness.
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@EtrnlVw
Yep.. gotta get back to work so i'll keep this short. If you don't think you can do something, you never can. A person can only limit themselves, and this goes for this life and beyond.
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@Outplayz
The fun part, is when the soul wakes up from the grind or one perception and they realize how much more fun creation will be, each soul will eventually wake up, but as well that soul can play the heaven and hell game and the war between the two for as long as they like.
100% with you again... i really hope this is true and we're are on to something.
It's simple really, the misconception lies within the false belief that we all deserving of hell and we are all wicked by nature. IMO this is a misconception of the interpretation of the Genesis account. We all have a physical body, a limited mind and limited perception, and in this physical body we have to contend with its weaknesses and desires. However the soul, the very soul itself is as pure as it was when it left the Godhead or the first Source. It only deserves what it commits as a conscious decision. The only time soul deserves hell or to have a very negative experience is when it commits crimes against creation. That is why Karma exists, so that the soul won't get too lost, it MUST learn from its mistakes in a dualistic environment. However, because of the nature of creation and duality prisons do exist in the astral plane for those out of control as well as heavens exist for those who deserve it. But as long as you respect this knowledge, play the rules fairly in creation you don't have to hope it is the nature of the soul to know these things eventually.
I have my fingers crossed.
Have you ever heard of soul travel?
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@Outplayz
Yep.. gotta get back to work so i'll keep this short.
Yep, catch up with ya later.
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@Stephen
Why does one have to die first to "live" forever? - STEPHEN
Because your nature towards God needs to change. You need to die to the old sinful nature and be transformed by God's Spirit.
God regenerates (i.e., the new birth, the spiritual birth) the spirit of those who put their faith/trust in Jesus Christ as Lord. We are no longer hostile to God but love Him for who He is and what He has done.
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@EtrnlVw
Have you ever heard of soul travel?
If this is the same as OBE's or astral projection, yes. I have never done it consciously without the help of a hallucinogen, but with one, Salvia, i have had 5 experiences... all the same which is rare for this drug, bc i always go to the same place. The thing with this one is that it also makes me believe i have died so it is scary as hell and i haven't done it again. Weed has also given me a slight one once but not all the way.
The natural ones i have done are all with lucid dreams. I've had a dozen or so when i was trying. It's really hard to do... and messes with my sleep so i haven't done it for awhile. But i remember the most intense one i literally stood up out of my body, looked at myself sleeping and thought... "i can do anything right now" ... that thought was so exciting it woke me up lol. It was super vivid and i think i even remember feeling my hands... which was part of what gave me an adrenaline rush that woke me up.
I really want to do a natural one but i haven't been able to. I can only do it in sleep or drugs, but have never done it when i was semi-conscious. I've tried but haven't got it. I haven't tried many times though so maybe if i try it consecutively i might get it. If you know any techniques let me know, i'm open to try it. I've heard you can have astral sex... i wanna, lol.
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@PGA2.0
Why are you hostile to god?
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@Outplayz
First, when you say, "How is it not obvious to you there is more than one truth?" and "All religion is intertwined," it is counter-intuitive - MEI meant to say there is more than one way to the truth. That was my bad. Every religion is intertwined in that they are seeking enlightenment and a good way to live to get to it. The only differences are they have different explanations and methods. That is bc it's man-made and an attempt to define a spiritual reality. So yeah, they will have similarities and differences, but they all have a common thread of "live good."
Not true. Truth is exclusive. 2+2=4 is exclusive. It does not equal 5, 7, 89, 203.
When Jesus said:
John 14:6
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'
That is exclusive and it is either true or it is false. It can't logically both be true at the same time and in the same manner false.
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Again, this is an exclusive statement. If it is true then your claims are false.
Also, as you say Man-made religions are just that. They are all work based (what you do to be right with God). Christianity is different. It is what God does for you that you don't deserve, yet because of His mercy and grace, He supplies a means for a relationship with Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.