A challenge to theists. Can you be honest.

Author: zedvictor4

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Stephen
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@zedvictor4
A challenge to theists. Can you be honest?

No they cannot be honest. It is not too hard to find the evidence that most  theist are absolute born liars! They simply cannot help themselves. They will re - write whole passages to suit their own interpretations, put words into the mouths of the authors of the scriptures and words into the mouths of biblical characters,  and, in the face of all the evidence, will never for a moment even consider that they are wrong. see post #20 above. There Is no cure for blinkered stupidity.

ethang5
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@Stephen
So you come back from your ride in the black party van having learned nothing?

There Is no cure for blinkered stupidity.
But bans do help us manage it nicely.
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@zedvictor4
I can perceive the screen in front of me.
Please don't lie. You can only perceive random acquired data that your brain interprets as an external screen. The screen itself you never perceive.

And if you can show me a god I will be able to perceive that also.
You mean that your brain will interpret the acquired data as an external God? But did you not say that could not be done?

I get the sinking suspicion that your responses here hold no respect for truth.

I would only show God to you if I disliked God. But I like God. So it looks like you're stuck with your acquired data from nowhere that means nothing.

Scuse me, I have to go talk with my external God. Shuffle your data around till I get back, OK?
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@zedvictor4
Guru Athias induced it would seem.
I'm not complicit in ethang5's provocations. (That much is obvious.) I need not attempt to insult you even through proxy in order to get my point across. And "seem" is neither an observation nor an argument.

Same old same old.
Consistent use of logically consistent reasoning can be repetitive.

I think that I will refer to it as Athiasism.
Let your arguments do the work that your attempts at insult cannot.

So prove the existence of an external god then.
The notion of externality is logically incoherent and epistemologically insignificant even by your own tacit admission. I've already proven the existence of God(s) twice. And if all you require is an image of God as you implied when stating "I can perceive the screen in front of me," then an image can certainly be provided to you. But let's not entertain the pretense that alone would suffice. Your criteria has already been demonstrated to be a logical incoherence for which proof is irrelevant. Not only can you not control for "external stimuli," as you put it, independent of your "internal process," but also you cannot perceive nonexistence. My providing any picture of any god should suffice, but it wont because you'll continue to indulge and sustain said logical incoherence. Once again, the premise of your disbelief is your disbelief. And that is fine in and of itself. But when you make mention of "proof" you're entering the realm of a logically consistent standard. And you will be held accountable.

And how do you think that knowledge/information/data (other than inherent functionality) gets into your brain?......I would suggest, acquisition.

The term acquired data is therefore aptly descriptive.
And how do you "know" anything that isn't fundamentally contingent on your internal process? Can you control for the information that is independent of your mind? If you can, then please demonstrate.

And how can "acquired data" be aptly descriptive when even you argued that your certainty of external influence is merely assumptive?

Zedvictor, if your argument cannot withstand the exhaustive rigor that logical consistency demands, then perhaps you should restructure your arguments.





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@zedvictor4
Prove/proof-
"evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument."

God exists independent of what I think.


So prove it.

All I have to do is cross reference, that was simple. There's more evidence and data for God independent of my thoughts than any other single topic. 

The soul detaches from the physical body etc.

Prove it.

I can prove that there is sufficient evidence which correlates with that proposition. I can know for a decent amount of certainty that spiritual beings exist because I have seen them, and so have many others. The soul and spirit are proposed as independent of the physical body, and the evidence strongly suggests the same....During NDE's this is the very first process, when your physical body shuts down your soul will be released giving you the sensation of being "sucked through a tunnel", this is your conscious soul releasing itself from the body. So we're back at cross referencing and understanding usage of terms, that was easy.

Melcharaz
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Either believe God or don't. Stephen is in a better position to be saved, because God can work with hot and cold, but not someone lukewarm. 
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"the most popular interpretation is that the NDE is exactly what it appears to be to the person having the experience". The NDE would then represent evidence of the supposedly immaterial existence of a soul or mind, which would leave the body upon death."


NDE's are first hand accounts to the truth of a proposition, in this case one supported by the existence of the soul and spirit. 
Melcharaz
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Near death or death experiences are different for most people. Most of the time there is only darkness, sometimes they speak with God, or see heaven or hell. I remember one time a guy died and he asked God, "why didnt i see you" to which God told him that if he did see him, he would have insisted on Going with God, thus negate God's will for his life. (He is alive today) death is personal, God doesnt change who he is, but he allows unique understandings of who he is, even to people who die.
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@Melcharaz
Leaving the physical body is like stepping into another universe, there's many people, places and things depending on where one arrives. Even with that said there are many commonalities involved with millions of reported NDE's. If you have any questions just ask, I have a pretty good data base for this topic. 

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"People who have had near-death experiences often report experiencing features that form a common pattern among the millions of people throughout history who have reported near-death experiences. Scientists investigating near-death experiences have found that the pattern of what usually happens during them is consistent worldwide and among people of all different ages, cultural backgrounds, and religious beliefs

A near-death experience (NDE) is an event that happens when a dying person's soul goes out of his or her body and travels through time and space

People often describe their souls (the conscious part of themselves) leaving their bodies.
While having an NDE, people can see their physical bodies below, and they can watch everything that happens to their bodies, such as doctors and nurses working and family members grieving. After they return to life, they can vividly describe details of what happened around their bodies, even though they were physically unconscious.

A tunnel appears in the air and draws the souls of people into it, propelling them forward quickly. Despite the great speed at which they’re traveling, however, people report that they’re not afraid, but peaceful and curious while going through the tunnel.

Angels and people who have died but knew the person having the near-death experience in some way while alive (such as family members or friends) often greet that person shortly after the brilliant light appears. They all recognize each other, even without seeing each other physically.

Despite the fact that their physical bodies are unconscious, people who have NDEs report being able to see, hear, smell, feel, and taste more vividly than they ever could on Earth. After returning, they often describe colors or music that are unlike anything they've encountered on Earth.

Near-death experiences end when people's souls re-enter their physical bodies. Then they're resuscitated, and recover from whatever illness or injury had caused them to approach death or clinically die."


"Since NDE experiences often happen in hospital settings with professional medical oversight, thousands of NDEs have been sufficiently well-documented for scientific study. This documentation often includes relevant information that can be verified by those present. Examples include actions that took place during resuscitation, conversations in the waiting room, or articles of clothing worn by family members.

In NDE cases, people retain their consciousness. As noted in the list above, there are reports of moving outside the body, passing through walls in the hospital, and sometimes being transported to a transphysical domain (this is where the popularly-known details of moving through a tunnel and encountering a bright light come in).

In a near death experience, people can see and hear what’s going on around them, remember what is happening and know who they are—but their consciousness is operating independently of their physical body."

This idea corresponds with developments in other branches of science. Near death experiences are certainly pronounced and conspicuous evidence of a transphysical soul.

The widely accepted criteria for near death experiences (see above) makes a science of near death experiences possible.
There are four significant peer reviewed studies that provide meaningful, verifiable evidence of the survival of human consciousness after clinical death, strengthening the case for the transphysical nature of NDEs:"




Melcharaz
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Near death experience is often used in place of death experience. People have actually died. Not nearly die. 
fauxlaw
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@zedvictor4
Do you, then ignore, or even deny that a person can have more senses than the oft-referred 5 senses? What if one of those senses is the proof of God sufficient for one to declare it? If someone hits me up the back of the head with a mallet, and I cry out in pain, am I to assume it did not happen just because I did not happen to see it? Am I to assume that if God massages my heart, and I cry out in utter joy, that it did not happen because I did not see it?
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@Athias
At he end of the proverbial day Athias.

The best that we can both do is assume that we are certain of something.

And I assume that there is an externality and that the mass has internality.

And as there is no consistency in the god concept it is reasonable to assume that assumed gods are sometimes assumed to be external, but nonetheless, the internal concept in what ever form, is only resultant of internal data manipulation rather than an externally real god..

All that one asks is for proof of the external god rather than for proof of an internal assumption or concept.

One doesn't doubt the nature of the internal concept, what one doubts is the existence of the external god.

So hard proof please and less Athiasims.
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@fauxlaw
Well senses are physiological function.... 5 or more, whatever.... It really depends upon how function is classified,

Though being hit on the head with a mallet is just that.

God massaging your heart is an internal concept that triggers an internal response which might make you want to cry out in utter joy.

But how can you  prove to the wider audience that it was actually a god massaging your heart?...You cannot.

It's no good just saying it was, simply because that is what you want to believe. (Nonetheless your prerogative)



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@EtrnlVw
All supposition, not proof.

Why is it so difficult to admit that you have no real proof of an external god?


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@ethang5
Your attempt at Athiasism is incoherent and confused.

You should stick to the style of debate  that you do best.

I'm still awaiting proof.
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@Melcharaz
So no proof then?

And I see that you have jumped aboard the EtrnlVw supposition train in an effort to change the subject.

Whilst the Athias train goes around in circles.

And the ethang5 train hits the buffers.

And there are still no gods waiting on the platform.

Choo Choo.
ethang5
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@zedvictor4
I'm still awaiting proof.
And you will keep waiting as long as you request that you cannot perceive.

But that is exactly what you want isn't it? Like the racist asking for proof of an intelligent black man, you don't want that for which you claim to be requesting.

We know because no sane person requests that which they claim doesn't exist. You are scared and incoherent.

But I was on my religion board minding my business and talking with others who believe. You came here, claiming to be atheist, yet besotted with an obsession for that you say is imaginary.

No one owes you anything. If your life is so satisfactory, what are you doing here repeating the silliness that God doesn't exist, over and over to people who disagree?

Go be happy in your atheism.

But you aren't happy are you? You're angry, lost, frustrated, and confused. So you sit here, day after day, begging for someone to convince you, to convert you, but you are terrified of being wrong.

Main while, you have to search us out to drone out your inane mantra, as we generally ignore you and just keep happily worshipping our God, as you pretend your lack of belief is our reality.

We get on the God train and leave, as you sit at the station alone going "choo! choo!"




Stephen
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@ethang5
ban

Was I? I didn't notice. I have been away. Now stick to the thread and start answering some questions concerning your own claims and comments. Or will you return to form and start rudely derailing someone else's  thread when challenged on your own claims.



God wants to save you from death.



Now why don't you show from the bible where the lord god tells us he wants to "save us from death" and where he tells us he loves us?

Tick, tock, tick tock, tick tock tick tock.


Melcharaz
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@EtrnlVw
My dad actually had died multiple times during a surgery, however he doesnt recall anything. 
Athias
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@zedvictor4
At the end of the day, your position holds little to no substance and in a futile attempt, you're trying to equate the demands or your argument's inverse with your own. There's no "we," zedvictor. There's only you and your incapacity to meet the demands of an argument with the rigor it merits. Instead, you've resorted to tone arguments and witless neologisms.

Enjoy your day, sir.
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@Stephen
Was I? I didn't notice.
We noticed. The board was pleasant in your absense.

I have been away.
You were supposed to think about your behavior while you were away.

Now stick to the thread and start answering some questions concerning your own claims and comments.
You never do. Why do you expect of me what you don't do?

Or will you return to form and start rudely derailing someone else's  thread when challenged on your own claims.
Make a thread and we'll see. There is a reason you were away.

God wants to save you from death.
Cross thread contamination Jasper.

Now why don't you show from the bible where the lord god tells us he wants to "save us from death" and where he tells us he loves us?
Why? What makes you think I owe you? You never show anything, so why do you think you can ask me to show you anything?

Tick, tocking is childish. No one is on your clock jasper. Grow up.
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@zedvictor4
Just who needs the proof, anyway? Don't I count? Find your own, or don't. It's always been up to you.
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@Athias
Et tu Brute.

And still no proof.

And have a nice day.
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@fauxlaw
Who needs proof.
Well as there is no proof,  obviously not you. 

Which is exactly what faith and belief is....Which isn't the contention.

You seem to miss the point somewhat.

The point is the discussion of a contention.



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@ethang5
I sit here...

And you sit here day after day hopelessly struggling to avoid the truth, often whilst most other Americans are tucked up safely in bed.

With no coherent proof of the god you are so certain of.

And I can sense that you are angry ,lost, frustrated and confused.


So I say unto you.

Though proof be none.

Nonetheless be happy with your internal god concept, as I will be happy with mine.

And when such evidence might manifest itself,  that we might be certain of the external god.

Perhaps then we might both find contentment.


The atheist that seeketh the truth doth not deny, but only seeketh....Zed 4









ethang5
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@zedvictor4
And you sit here day after day hopelessly struggling to avoid the truth,
Lie. I successfully avoid your "truth".

With no coherent proof of the god you are so certain of.
And yet the world keeps contradicting you, and converts keep growing. Frustrating isn't it?

And I can sense that you are angry ,lost, frustrated and confused.
Can you sense that yours is the loony fringe position too? You are the typical European atheist who has allowed the atheist bubble in which he lives, confuse him into thinking the world is like his bubble.

Though proof be none.
You stupidly believe because you cannot see proof, no one else can. Why? I still think its because you are terrified. You you dismiss the hundreds of thousands finding proof every day, to cling to your little shelter.

And when such evidence might manifest itself,  that we might be certain of the external god.
I'm certain. Why aren't you? Ah! Maybe its because you believe nothing external can be perceived.

Perhaps then we might both find contentment.
I'm content. Notice I didn't have to seek you out on some atheist website and harass you about God?

The atheist that seeketh the truth doth not deny, but only seeketh
If you seek the truth only inside your data processor, you won't find it jasper. It isn't there. The truth doesn't reside between your ears.

When you're no longer terrified to come out of your little materialist hidey-hole, you may one day find truth and be content.

Till then, keep asking to be shown what you claim you are unable to see, it may dawn on you one day that running way is silly when no one is chasing you.

Scuse me while I go pray to my God.
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@ethang5
Not running, still waiting.

Nonetheless....Why do you think that a god needs praying to?

Wouldn't an omni-god be aware of your undying commitment?

I sure that an omni-god would rather that you were safely tucked up in bed with Mrs Ethan at this time of day.
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@ethang5
Anyway time to go now and think about more important business.

So here's to tomorrow morning....God willing as you might say.
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@zedvictor4
Not running, still waiting.
For what you claim you cannot perceive. That is stupid Z-man.

Nonetheless....Why do you think that a god needs praying to?
Why do you think that I think God needs praying to? Your obsession has corrupted your ability to think clearly.

Wouldn't an omni-god be aware of your undying commitment?
My praying to God has nothing to do with God's omniscience. Think with your brain, not your bias.

I sure that an omni-god would rather that you were safely tucked up in bed with Mrs Ethan at this time of day.
Luckily for me, my God left a book telling me of what He'd rather, so I don't have to depend on some confused atheist telling me what God would rather.

Anyway time to go now and think about more important business.
Drone to other religion sites huh? Have fun.

God willing as you might say.
Or till your god obsession drags you back here to once again drone about  how there isn't one.