Bloodline Day Phase 1

Author: Lunatic

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drafterman
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@Buddamoose
@Vaarka
This argument is immaterial to the game at hand. We should be trying to decide on a lynch. I favor Supa over Hammer. I'm not sure I understand the argument for a Hammer lynch.
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@drafterman
Hammers analysis and advocacy lacks clear town motive. It's beneficial primarily and near exclusively to scums, and his rationale is being inconsistently/selectively applied. 

All signs of contrived/faked/manufactured(the specific adjectives all being synonomous in this context) analysis.
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Not clear town motive, should I say reasonable and realistic town motive. He states utility, but utility as a motive doesn't make sense as it's being inconsistently applied if that's the case. 


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@Buddamoose
I'm still at hammer and supa slightly susp since the start of the day. Haven't seen anything to change that.
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@drafterman
I favor Supa over Hammer

Because? 

If you think Supa's analysis is faked, then how TF are you not finding Hammers to be even more suspect?

Better question, what metrics are you using to gauge whether it's genuine or contrived? 

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@Greyparrot
I'm still at hammer and supa slightly susp since the start of the day. Haven't seen anything to change that.

Town Reads beyond Rational? 
drafterman
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@Buddamoose
Metrics? Not using metrics just.... intuition? This is a game of intuition more than one of calculation. Hammer's motivations are meta-based, rather than "contrived." I've often advocated for the lynching of anti-town townies simply because they were a threat to town. It's not unheard of.
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@drafterman
I've often advocated for the lynching of anti-town townies simply because they were a threat to town. It's not unheard of

I'm aware it's not unheard of. You are taking the supplied motive at face value. Again, if his motives are meta based, then those motives are being applied selectively. Does selective application indicate a motive is genuine or contrived generally? 









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@Buddamoose
Does selective application indicate a motive is genuine or contrived generally? 
Contrived. This implies there is another player that he feels is anti-town but isn't advocating for them to be utility lynched.

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@Vaarka
If someone is allowed to kill you, then you're allowed to kill them. That's basically your line of thinking. 
If killing were exclusively a competitive game, yes. But it's generally not a game, so not really.
shut up about "advantages" and shit.
Lol, "please shut up about one of the primary basis by which we hold things as cheating in a game independent of it "breaking the rules" Sure, I'll do just that. 


Everyone can do it, but that doesn't mean they should. 
You're saying that "everyone is allowed to do it, so it's fine". 
No it's not. That's not how this works.
But that is, in part, how it works for games, particularly when it comes to whether or not something is cheating.

What I'm saying is that you should not be able to edit or delete posts at all. It's the mentality of "either everyone can do it, or no one can do it", and I'm saying no one can do it. 

And, again, why should no one be able to do it? Remember, you claimed it's cheating regardless of whether it is against the rules. As always I invite you to illustrate that, which you have yet to do. 

Stick-em on the hands in football is against the rules. If it were not, it's use would not be "cheating". It was banned because it was seen as allowing people to accomplish what would otherwise be outside the realm of natural human capability. 

But given that football is an athletic sport, that is actually relevant. We are already outside the realm of natural human capability already, being on well, the internet. If mafia we being played "realistically" it would be in person and there would be little to no recording of what's discussed. 

You are bitching about how editing or deleting posts is not realistic, while ignoring that same logic applies to the playing of the game on a forum itself. Mafia realistically would not have recorded discussions to look back on over time, and you would have short time periods to decide. This style of play intrinsically ruins how the game would be "realistically" played as is. Appeals to "realism" are irrelevant. 
Vader
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@Vaarka
read around section 4 or 5 of forum
RationalMadman
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Budda instead if voting me, use your brain and think. If John and Rob are mafia why would Sally be? She grows to resent if not hate Rob despite no divorce occurring.

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@drafterman
Does selective application indicate a motive is genuine or contrived generally? 

Contrived. This implies there is another player that he feels is anti-town but isn't advocating for them to be utility lynched

Ehhhhhh, It implies that there shouldn't be another player that is more anti-town in their view. Particularly if another is moreso violating supplied reasons of anti-town utility, no?

Hammer in his case against Rational listed his actions, and a disposition on his probability on being scum, and of rational being 100% anti-town utility. He didnt link anything.

Ignoring that such cases are inherently suspect because actions themselves aren't intrinsically indicative of affiliation

either he thinks the actions are scummy, anti-town in utility, or both. Either way, the two primary actions were forwarding an either/or choice involving mass claiming, and strongarming people into claiming. As I already pointed out, I outright advocated for a mass claim, and have been clearly aggressively strongarming people into claiming. 

Yet he pushes rational as more likely scum than anyone else(and this is a forgiving description cause he said rational was 85%(most likely) town) and 100% anti-town in utility. 

Again, then he should be all down for lynching me. Regardless of affiliation, cause of my clear anti-town utility heavily implied in his case. 

Also, I'm just gonna point out, listing actions but not connecting the dots to those actions is sus AF to me and reeks of hedging bets against being FOS'd by making any implied connection plausibly deniable. 


RationalMadman
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Of not if*
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Everyone out your character immediately.

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I think
Eric and Danny are the second mafia team.
drafterman
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@Buddamoose
How are you anti-town in his case?
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@drafterman
How are you anti-town in his case?

Hammer in his case against Rational listed his actions, and a disposition on his probability on being scum, and of rational being 100% anti-town utility. 

either he thinks the actions are scummy, anti-town in utility, or both. Either way, the two primary actions were forwarding an either/or choice involving mass claiming, and strongarming people into claiming. As I already pointed out, I outright advocated for a mass claim, and have been clearly aggressively strongarming people into claiming. 

A third possibility I suppose would be he doesn't think the actions are signifigant at all. But if so, why post them then? That's total and clear contrivance at that point. 
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@RationalMadman
If there were two mafia teams it would be 4v2v2

Town would have to lynch a scum every day and not VTNL to win. That's not balanced at all. The whole two mafia teams idea would be like, right up to the point of rigging a game against town inherently, without technically crossing the line cause there would still be a slim chance for town to win...

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@RationalMadman
I'm also not voting you anymore. I found the evidence i needed to hold your claim that Sally came clean as true. It just took a bit. 

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@Buddamoose
Obviously you for early claim no counterclaim and aggressive scumhunting, even if you are all over the place lol. Sometimes you have to shake the tree to see what falls out.
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@Buddamoose
Listen, I'm not following your case. I went back and read Hammer's posts and I don't see it.

But, what I do see, is him FOsing RM, but then voting Supa. This, to me, is the bigger red flag.

VTL Hammer.
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@RationalMadman
If John and Rob are mafia why would Sally be?

This also isn't necessarily true? Based upon your analysis and my research I'd agree they're the most likely candidates to be scum chars. But that doesn't necessarily mean they actually are. It could be John and Kevin also fmpov. John being who killed Danny, Kevin being who killed Marco because he was going to expose John, no?



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@Greyparrot
Sometimes you have to shake the tree to see what falls out

Effing this man 😂😂
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@Buddamoose
I'm actually really pissed at Supa for early claiming vanilla. There's no risk of counterclaim, and he is now not going to be a likely buffer for NK target (if he is town). It kinda screws over town power roles if he isn't lying about his claim.


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@drafterman
Listen, I'm not following your case. I went back and read Hammer's posts and I don't see it.

Post number 117

Yeah, I'm not character claiming. In case anyone is confused, this is what happened:

1. RM said earlier that the only options for character claiming were everyone keeps their character a secret or everyone claims and we try to work out the liars from there
2. RM character claims
3. RM references his earlier statement in an attempt to strong arm everyone else into character claiming

There's still an 85% chance he's town imo, but a lynch might be worth it considering the 15% chance he's scum and the 100% chance we'd be cancelling his anti-town utility regardless.

Again, definitely implying the above actions are either scummy or anti-town in utility.
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@Buddamoose
5 not 4
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Drafterman feels entitled to bully Lynch outs but doesn't want to claim himself. 

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@RationalMadman
5 not 4

Ok. Well that's still a close to rigged game regardless. And how would "2 mafia teams" be functionally any different than 1 mafia team, 1 third party team? Or two third party teams?

The night kill. 2 NK's and a little over 1 to 1 ratio of scum to town? ur talking about a wtf imbalanced game...

The theory is highly improbable at best fmpov. Either way, it doesn't really change how we would otherwise operate even if true. Except in making it that we absolutely have to lynch and can't VTNL. Which seems to be what is going to happen anyway 

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@Buddamoose
How do you feel about Supas early vanilla claim?