Where Is God?

Author: Salixes

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#31
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@ethang5
I think you missed the point of the analogy. I was not comparing God to a bus driver. I was comparing the answer "God takes as long as he takes" with the answer "the bus will get here when it gets here." As in, those are both equally pointless and useless answers to the question at hand.
#32
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@drafterman

I believe you are reasonable.

So you are sayimg "The Truth" is semantically meaningless to you? In what way do you mean meaningless? Could you elaborate a little to help me understand?


#33
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@Mopac
I mean that I don't know what "The Truth" is. It's like you're using the name of a character in a story I don't know anything about. Imagine me talking about "The Force" to someone with absolutely no knowledge of Star Wars.
#34
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@drafterman
When I say "The Truth", I mean reality as it truly is.

We say that we are children of God, because our relationship to God is as a child learning from their father.

The languahe we use is supposed to convey a relationship. We strive to be sober minded and clear headed. To be consistent. 

Being that to us, God is The Ultimate Reality, we see that making peace with our circumstances, and being thankful is the best way to glorify God. Our way is not to fight nature, or let nature overrun us, but to cooperate with it. In aligning ourselves with The Truth, we walk in The Way, which is Life.

And though we in our flesh die, having a common grave, in identifying with what is eternally real, what is unreal about us is melted away by the fire of Truth. Identifying with The Truth, we share in its eternity, and so the discipline of an Orthodox Christian is to be a living icon of The Truth.

Do you understand what I mean by Truth? What do you think?


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#35
Salixes
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@Mopac
When I say "The Truth", I mean reality as it truly is.
Except that your concept of reality is far from the truth. In fact it is a complete load of unsubstantiated nonsense.

So, your God also taught you to be vulgar and offensive by teaching you to preach utter lies to others through fear and to be hateful and bigoted towards others, did he?
#36
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@drafterman
I was comparing the answer "God takes as long as he takes" with the answer "the bus will get here when it gets here." As in, those are both equally pointless and useless answers to the question at hand.
I know Draft.

But your choice of analogy does belie your mindset.

You think God is offering you a service, selling you something, and that you can sit back and evaluate this offer as to whether it suits your preference.

You think God needs you.

The verses from James I posted tell you why God sometimes does not answer requests. He is not a bus driver tasked with picking up customers to cover his salary. The traveller is the reason the bus driver exists.

A more apt analogy is you're on the side of the road with your thumb out. God knows you're there. He knows if you have your thumb out. If you really need that ride, and you do, you will keep that thumb out till God comes speeding by in that GTO convertible.

If you got tired waiting, or figured you did not need a lift, and dropped your thumb, God will speed right by. He's fine. You're the one who needs Him.

If you don't think you need Him. Fine. But He certainly is not going to submit His schedule to you for your convenience. As the verse says, 

“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”

Pride will make you drop your thumb. But that fleeting rush you get by keeping your pride from not submitting, will be empty as you huddle starving by the roadside in the cold and rain.
#37
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The world doesn't like The Truth, it prefers its idols.

Mopac gets pissy because "you can't tell me what I believe" whenever people understandably misunderstand one of his intentionally convoluted metaphors but here he is straight up telling people what they believe by telling them that they worship idols.
#38
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@drafterman
I mean that I don't know what "The Truth" is.

The entry for "god" in Mopac's thesaurus is about 200 pages long.

Come to think of it a lot of entries in his thesaurus are abnormally long. 

I was actually very patient with him when we first met because I literally thought English was a second language for him because of the way he talks. True story, I really did.

Alas no, turns out he was merely yanking our chains this whole time.
#39
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@ethang5
You think God is offering you a service, selling you something, and that you can sit back and evaluate this offer as to whether it suits your preference.
Nope. The analogy has nothing to do with God.


#40
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@Mopac
When I say "The Truth", I mean reality as it truly is.
Right, but we already have a word for that: "reality." When you create a brand new term, and make it capitalize, that indicates something special beyond that.

This assignment doesn't explain certain attributes that you assign to reality:

You say:
Ronjs gave the right answer when he said "His timing"
But reality doesn't have "timing."

You say:
the cleansing power of The Holy Spirt, which is The Spirit of Truth, works in you.
But reality doesn't have spirit or cleansing power.

You say:
That is really the faith that you have to have
But reality doesn't require faith to understand it.

You say:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth
But you can't "invite" reality into your heart or mind. It is a a thing, not a person or entity.

You say:
You can't please God without faith
If you have pride, God will humble you
You cannot kill The Truth. It will rise again, and on the last day all will be judged by it.
But reality isn't a person or entity that can be "pleased" or that can "humble" a person. It cannot be killed, rise, or judge people.

So there is quite the gap between "reality" and this thing you call "The Truth." There are a lot of attributes and properties in the latter not present in the former.



#41
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@drafterman

Right, but we already have a word for that: "reality." When you create a brand new term, and make it capitalize, that indicates something special beyond that.
I did not create a brand new term, we have understood things this way for thousands of years.

But reality doesn't have "timing."

If reality did not.having timing, then you would not experience life sequentially. To say, "In God's time" is another way of saying, "It happens when it happens".

But reality doesn't have spirit or cleansing power.
Sure it does. Much in the way darkness flees from the light. Like wax before the fire, delusion is melted away by the fiery heat of Truth.

But reality doesn't require faith to understand it.
True knowledge is not intellectual assent, but an experience. Intellectualizing thanksgiving is not knowing thanksgiving, rather to know thanksgiving is to be thankful. Much in the same way, The Truth can not be known by someone who does not walk in The Way of Truth.


But you can't "invite" reality into your heart or mind. It is a a thing, not a person or entity
If your heart and mind is directed towards The Truth, quite naturally you will find that your mindfulness towards reality will sculpt and shape you. 

The purer your heart, the stronger the presence of Truth is in your heart and mind.


But reality isn't a person or entity that can be "pleased" or that can "humble" a person. It cannot be killed, rise, or judge people.
Quite naturally, humble students are better than proud students. Much in the same way, those who think they know already have a hard time learning from and being purified by God. Those who approach God with the humility and reverence that a young child has towards a good parent receive a grace that cannot rest on the proud.


So there is quite the gap between "reality" and this thing you call "The Truth." There are a lot of attributes and properties in the latter not present in the former.

As I hope my response reveals to you, the discrepancy is primarily a matter of paradigm.
#42
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@Outplayz
People choose those characteristics for themselves, God does not impose his will on anyone, he does not want automatons.

#43
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@Mopac
If reality did not.having timing, then you would not experience life sequentially. To say, "In God's time" is another way of saying, "It happens when it happens".
Not in the context of this conversation. Both you and ron have say "his" timing. That implies the timing at the whim of some conscious entity. Reality does not have this kind of timing.

But reality doesn't have spirit or cleansing power.
Sure it does. Much in the way darkness flees from the light. Like wax before the fire, delusion is melted away by the fiery heat of Truth.
Oh, so it's  just poetic metaphor?

True knowledge is not intellectual assent, but an experience. Intellectualizing thanksgiving is not knowing thanksgiving, rather to know thanksgiving is to be thankful. Much in the same way, The Truth can not be known by someone who does not walk in The Way of Truth.
Nice prose, but doesn't change what I've said: reality doesn't require faith to understand it.

But you can't "invite" reality into your heart or mind. It is a a thing, not a person or entity
If your heart and mind is directed towards The Truth, quite naturally you will find that your mindfulness towards reality will sculpt and shape you.

The purer your heart, the stronger the presence of Truth is in your heart and mind.
Okay, but I still can't "invite" it into my heart or mind. It's not a person or entity. It doesn't "do" anything other than exist. It has no powers or will.

But reality isn't a person or entity that can be "pleased" or that can "humble" a person. It cannot be killed, rise, or judge people.
Quite naturally, humble students are better than proud students. Much in the same way, those who think they know already have a hard time learning from and being purified by God. Those who approach God with the humility and reverence that a young child has towards a good parent receive a grace that cannot rest on the proud.
Okay, but it is not something that can be "pleased" or "humble" a person. It cannot be killed, rise, or judge people.

So there is quite the gap between "reality" and this thing you call "The Truth." There are a lot of attributes and properties in the latter not present in the former.
As I hope my response reveals to you, the discrepancy is primarily a matter of paradigm.

Nevertheless, it is in fact a discrepancy. So I hope you keep in mind that when an atheist rejects your depictions of God/The Truth, they aren't, contrary to your claims, denying reality, they are denying that reality has the properties you have assigned to it.
#44
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@drafterman
Nope. The analogy has nothing to do with God.
OK. It sure seemed like it did.
#45
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@drafterman
As I said, the issue is one of paradigm.

The fact of the matter is, conceptions of God are not God. 


You say I assign properties to God, but the only thing I say about God is that The Ultimate Reality is God. Everything I say about God is consistent with this. Everything else has to do with relationship to this God, and only in relation to this God. The Truth. How the children of God relate to God.

According to the way we understand things, to say there is no God is to say you are a nihilist.

"That there is no truth, that there is no absolute state of affairs—no thing-in-itself. This alone is nihilism, and of the most extreme kind." 

What Nietzsche says up there is very much in line with how we understand things. Nihilism is the denial of God. Atheism is nihilism.


#46
Dr.Franklin
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2020 atheist arguments guys!!!

woohooo
#47
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@Mopac
You say I assign properties to God, but the only thing I say about God is that The Ultimate Reality is God.
Well that's simply not true. You say a lot more than just this. For example you say that God can be pleased. Reality is not a conscious, sentient entity. It cannot be pleased. Reality does not have the property of being able to be pleased.

You have not demonstrated that reality has all of these qualities that you have assigned to it.


According to the way we understand things, to say there is no God is to say you are a nihilist.

"That there is no truth, that there is no absolute state of affairs—no thing-in-itself. This alone is nihilism, and of the most extreme kind." 

What Nietzsche says up there is very much in line with how we understand things. Nihilism is the denial of God. Atheism is nihilism.
Nihilism implies atheism, yes. But atheism does not imply nihilism. I am an atheist but I am not a nihilist.
#48
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@ethang5
Will I explained how it isn't. It is an analogy regarding a person's statement about God, not about God itself.
#49
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@drafterman
you say that God can be pleased. Reality is not a conscious, sentient entity. It cannot be pleased. Reality does not have the property of being able to be pleased.

Yet, making choices that align with reality essentially lead to more consistent and positive results. While making choices that disregard reality consistently leads to subversion.

This has everything to do with the relationship a child of God has with God.

Nihilism implies atheism, yes. But atheism does not imply nihilism. I am an atheist but I am not a nihilist
As our God is The Ultimate Reality, to deny our God is to profess nihilism. If you are not a nihilist, maybe you aren't really an atheist either.
#50
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@drafterman
OK. Though I still think your choice of analogy said something about how you view God's relationship to you.
#51
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@Mopac
Yet, making choices that align with reality essentially lead to more consistent and positive results. While making choices that disregard reality consistently leads to subversion.

This has everything to do with the relationship a child of God has with God.
But nothing to do with with "pleasing" reality or reality "judging" me.

Nihilism implies atheism, yes. But atheism does not imply nihilism. I am an atheist but I am not a nihilist
As our God is The Ultimate Reality, to deny our God is to profess nihilism. If you are not a nihilist, maybe you aren't really an atheist either.
See, I already said that when people deny your God they aren't denying reality. They are denying that reality has the extra attributes you've assigned to it. Atheism does not imply nihilism.
#52
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@drafterman
But nothing to do with with "pleasing" reality or reality "judging" me


Maybe not in the way that you think. Or maybe the way that you think isn't ruled out? I don't know. But it is no strange thing. No extraordinary claim that I am making.


Of course we will all be judged by The Light of Truth, and on the last day, all darkness, deceit, delusion, falsehood will be exposed by The Light of Truth. Could you not say, based on the judgement of God's Word which is The Truth that what God's Law banishes must be displeasing to Him? The darkness flees from The Light, just as those who hate Him flee from His face.

Truth is the highest good, and evil the natural consequence of deviation from The Truth.

The way of the wicked shall perish, their faith and identity is with perishable things. Their walk blind, their mind darkened. The end of their faith is in created things. The Eternal Way is to be made divine through unity with The Uncreated Energy of God. To abide in The Eternal Way of Truth.

The very light of heaven is the same fire of hell. The purifying flame of Truth.




See, I already said that when people deny your God they aren't denying reality. They are denying that reality has the extra attributes you've assigned to it. Atheism does not imply nihilism.

My position has and has always been that the vast majority of people who think they are atheist believe in a superstitious conception of God. That being the case, the atheist position is actually a negation of gods, not God.

The Ultimate Reality is God, all other "gods" are only gods in a nominal sense.

Let it be known that The Ultimate Reality is God, and God is not like created things that have attributes. God Is what God Is. The Eternally Existing One.

#53
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@Mopac
But nothing to do with with "pleasing" reality or reality "judging" me
Maybe not in the way that you think. Or maybe the way that you think isn't ruled out? I don't know. But it is no strange thing. No extraordinary claim that I am making.

Of course we will all be judged by The Light of Truth, and on the last day, all darkness, deceit, delusion, falsehood will be exposed by The Light of Truth. Could you not say, based on the judgement of God's Word which is The Truth that what God's Law banishes must be displeasing to Him? The darkness flees from The Light, just as those who hate Him flee from His face.
Okay, but I don't see that reality has any of these qualities you have ascribed to it.

Truth is the highest good, and evil the natural consequence of deviation from The Truth.

The way of the wicked shall perish, their faith and identity is with perishable things. Their walk blind, their mind darkened. The end of their faith is in created things. The Eternal Way is to be made divine through unity with The Uncreated Energy of God. To abide in The Eternal Way of Truth.

The very light of heaven is the same fire of hell. The purifying flame of Truth.
Good and evil are human concepts. Reality - not being a conscience entity with a will - cares not for human-made moral compasses.


See, I already said that when people deny your God they aren't denying reality. They are denying that reality has the extra attributes you've assigned to it. Atheism does not imply nihilism.

My position has and has always been that the vast majority of people who think they are atheist believe in a superstitious conception of God. That being the case, the atheist position is actually a negation of gods, not God.
It isn't the case. The atheist position is that any conception of god is false. Even yours.

The Ultimate Reality is God, all other "gods" are only gods in a nominal sense.

Let it be known that The Ultimate Reality is God, and God is not like created things that have attributes. God Is what God Is. The Eternally Existing One.
Knowledge is a justified, true belief. Justify your belief and only then can it be known. Also note that "eternal" and "existing" are attributes.

#54
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@drafterman
The Truth is not man made.

The Ultimate Reality is God, and certainly has more authority than either you or I. 

If you deny the existence of my God, you are professing nihilism. If my God doesn't exist, nothing exists.


But God certainly exists, is everywhere present, and fills all things.









#55
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@drafterman
It is patently ridiculous to say, "The ultimate reality is ultimately unreal".

If nothing is ultimately real, then our experience would be impossible.


#56
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@Mopac
The Truth is not man made.
I agree with this.

The Ultimate Reality is God, and certainly has more authority than either you or I. 
I disagree with this. Reality does not judge. It has no authority. It cannot be pleased. It is not a conscious entity with will.

If you deny the existence of my God, you are professing nihilism. If my God doesn't exist, nothing exists.
I deny the existence of your god. I do not profess nihilism. This is because I also deny that reality is God.

It is patently ridiculous to say, "The ultimate reality is ultimately unreal".

If nothing is ultimately real, then our experience would be impossible.
I agree with this, too. I just disagree that reality is a God that judges, is pleased, and has any authority. This is yet to be demonstrated (to me).
#57
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Reality does not judge. It has no authority. It cannot be pleased. It is not a conscious entity with will.

If something exists, it has no existence apart from The Ultimate Reality. Therefore God has authority.

As God determines what is real and true, God's judgement is what gives existence.

If something exists, it ultimately comes from God. Therefore, whatever happens is God's will.


#58
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@Mopac
If something exists, it has no existence apart from The Ultimate Reality. Therefore God has authority.
I don't see how the former implies the latter.

As God determines what is real and true, God's judgement is what gives existence.
Reality is not a conscious entity. It is not please. It does not make judgments. It makes no determinations.

If something exists, it ultimately comes from God. Therefore, whatever happens is God's will.
You've made quite a lot of base declarations. I am still awaiting the justification part. Bridge the gap between your assertions and the justification of their alleged truth.

#59
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@drafterman
I am telling you what is meant by these things so as to help bridge the gap between what you think these things look like and the types and shadows of a deeper reality that these ways of describing point to.


Because of the paradigm difference, anachronistic interpretation is inevitable. You might have to think a little more poetically than you are used to doing to see what I am trying to point out.

There are certain difficulties that one invariably stumbles upon when we are using the medium of creation to witness to that which is Uncreated. 

Whatever The Ultimate Reality is, that is God. 

#60
drafterman
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@Mopac
I am telling you what is meant by these things so as to help bridge the gap between what you think these things look like and the types and shadows of a deeper reality that these ways of describing point to.


Because of the paradigm difference, anachronistic interpretation is inevitable. You might have to think a little more poetically than you are used to doing to see what I am trying to point out.

There are certain difficulties that one invariably stumbles upon when we are using the medium of creation to witness to that which is Uncreated. 

Whatever The Ultimate Reality is, that is God. 
I think you have adequately explained what you mean by God/Truth/Ultimate Reality.

I would like to move on to the portion of the conversation where you demonstrate or provide the justification that reality has the attributes you have assigned to it. Specifically (but not limited to)

  • That reality can be pleased
  • That reality has a will and conscious sense of timing
  • That reality can judge