Can Music Be Evil?

Author: ethang5

Posts

Total: 38
Topic's author
#1
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
We all know that music alone can make us feel a certain way. That most of us associate certain key sequences as eerie or weird. The horror movie industry works on this truth.

In tests done all over the world to different cultures, "scary" music seems to be scary universally. There is something in the music, overriding culture, that prompts feelings of "wrongness" or "evilness".

So my question to you is, can music itself be evil? Are certain note structures wrong in and of themselves?

If your answer is no, then why do we see some music as weird or evil?
And why does this view seem to be consistent across cultures and ethnicities?
#2
Smithereens
Smithereens's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 502
2
2
4
Smithereens's avatar
Smithereens
2
2
4
-->
@ethang5
It's illegal to incite violence, presumably it's evil as well.
Using music to incite violence would be evil. 

#3
Smithereens
Smithereens's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 502
2
2
4
Smithereens's avatar
Smithereens
2
2
4
if you're talking about why discordance is discordant across cultures, that's because perception of pitch is biological and completely irrelevant to your upbringing. The human brain does not naturally consider a diminished 5th aesthetically superior to a perfect 5th.
Topic's author
#4
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Smithereens
But why would we perceive it as "evil" instead of just discordant?

From whence comes the willies? The heebie-jeebies? The goosebumps?

How would one use music alone to incite violence?

#5
Smithereens
Smithereens's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 502
2
2
4
Smithereens's avatar
Smithereens
2
2
4
-->
@ethang5
The unpleasantness is why many cultures associate it with evil. It's ugly and undesirable. Why would anyone associate it with their ideas of good?
#6
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,978
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ethang5
The source of all evil is religion.

Topic's author
#7
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Smithereens
Good point. But I wonder, do we associate all unpleasantness with evil? Are ugly people thought of as eerie? Evil? Do tummy aches make us feel like something wicked this way comes?

Also, not all "scary" music is discordant. Some of it is quite nice, and a few bands have made a living from it.

Though that answer has some truth, I can't help but feel it misses something.
Topic's author
#8
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->@Grayparrot

The source of all evil is religion.

So since music preceded religion, was music not thought of as scary until religion?

If the source of all evil is religion, what does that say about the human apparent love and attraction for religion?

Are non-religious societies less evil than religious ones?
#9
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
We all know that music alone can make us feel a certain way. That most of us associate certain key sequences as eerie or weird. The horror movie industry works on this truth.

In tests done all over the world to different cultures, "scary" music seems to be scary universally. There is something in the music, overriding culture, that prompts feelings of "wrongness" or "evilness".

So my question to you is, can music itself be evil? Are certain note structures wrong in and of themselves?

Well there is a difference between scary, weird and "evil" for example many things can sound and look eerie, scary or weird and not be evil or inherently evil. There might be a night sky or eerie looking weather and clouds that look menacing but they aren't evil. Same with tones, sounds and noises....minor notes tend to sound darker than major notes and so they have an eerie feel to them but I wouldn't say evil and so I don't believe music in and of itself could be evil. Even when say an "evil" person is composing music and wishes to portray the music as a representative of the dark side the composer is just using universal notes in an arrangement of its choices that come across as dark. Tones in themselves are just vibrations, movement there's nothing malicious about them.

If your answer is no, then why do we see some music as weird or evil?

I think there are two factors, one in which I've stated is that certain notes have an eerie sound to them, and two you have the composer which has the ability to arrange those notes.....he may want to convey something dark, and we see and hear that in the final product but the material (tone) is indifferent, inanimate and has no quality of awareness IMO. And again, there is a big difference between weird and evil, which makes this confusing to answer. If you just stick with evil, and not weird and eerie the answers are black and white.

And why does this view seem to be consistent across cultures and ethnicities?

Because like I said, certain tones (which are inanimate, they have no conscious nature) which are vibrations have an eerie sound to them and then on top of that a composer can use a compilation of "eerie" sounding notes to create a final product. To me, pipe organs sound eerie and yet it's played in Churches lol, as well as horror films. Thunder sounds scary but it's not evil.....fog looks creepy but it's not evil. I think you get my point music is just an arrangement of universal notes, the composer is free to arrange those notes but the notes themselves aren't evil.

A Composer or musician can have evil intent but the notes in which music is arranged is neutral. 



Topic's author
#10
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
I get you, but I'm not the one conflating eerie and evil. Horror movies all deal with evil and are almost always eerie and spooky. So is Halloween. It is people who associate evil and spooky.

I know music is just vibrations, but it still can elicit certain emotions and perceptions in people. Could music that elicits feelings that it is evil be because it is evil?
#11
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
I get you, but I'm not the one conflating eerie and evil. Horror movies all deal with evil and are almost always eerie and spooky. So is Halloween. It is people who associate evil and spooky.

Yeah I get it, but the nature of what we are discussing calls for specifics and it's getting in the way of a clear cut answer. As I said, things can appear and sound eerie but that doesn't always mean that its evil. I think you get that so no need to harp on it.

I know music is just vibrations, but it still can elicit certain emotions and perceptions in people. Could music that elicits feelings that it is evil be because it is evil?

No, I don't think so because notes have no conscious nature as we discussed....Yes it can elicit emotions and perceptions because of the composer not the tones necessarily, because the same notes one were to use in a horror song, I can use for a romantic composition. Notes have that quality about them, they can be used to invoke many things, all with the same tones being used. I think you would have better luck targeting the composition or the composer, not the tones.
#12
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
Could music that elicits feelings that it is evil be because it is evil?

Here is the interesting thing, the final composition could inherent the energy of the composer, and in that light of evaluating this, you may have a more precise point being made. I'll give you the composition but not the notes or tones in themselves. 
Topic's author
#13
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
So you're saying a musical composition could be evil?
#14
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
So you're saying a musical composition could be evil?

Let me ask you this, so I know that you are getting the distinction.....let's say an "evil" composer put together a song of his choice of notes/arrangement......and let's say that I played the same tune with the same notes.....would you say that both of those performances were "evil"? 
I guess what I'm saying is that music and tones in and of themselves are not evil, but negative energies can be transferred through artists or composers. I can play an eerie sounding song and yet I would not classify it as evil, do you get the distinction I'm making or is it irrelevant? I can take the same instruments and the same notes and use them to create something completely different. In a nutshell it completely depends on the composer, much in the same way guns are not evil, but they can be used by someone of evil intent. 
#15
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
In your OP you asked this....
"So my question to you is, can music itself be evil? Are certain note structures wrong in and of themselves?"

I'm just making the distinction between certain note structures and the composers themselves. If we make that clarification we can have a more precise communication. 
#16
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
Ethang do you play any instruments, guitar or something?
Not that you aren't aware but all composers pull from the same universal selection of notes with different instruments and they arrange those notes in a way which conveys what they to want convey. But, I could use thunder and an eerie sky scene to convey something dark as well but neither the sky nor the thunder are evil or even "dark". I could even use the same instruments and even the same notes of an eerie song and convey something majestic and divine (again this is all the obvious).
If I were to play an A chord (major) on the guitar it would sound like a bright happy note, on the other hand if I switch that note to an Am (minor) it sounds creepy, or eerie, it has a more dark sounding tone to it. Now I can do many things with that note, I can use it with other minor notes and have a really dramatic sounding piece.....on top of that I can take an Am or an Em and add distortion to it, I can play it really heavy and crazy. I can add any effect to that note and emphasize the emotion or feel of my creation. But again, this is all playing with inanimate notes, creating the illusion of something "scary". On top of me selecting darker sounding tones I can add lyrics, and those lyrics could portray anything I wish. But again, are the actual words I'm using evil in and of themselves? or is it just the intent behind it?

Anyways it's an interesting topic, I just think it would help to make the distinction between certain notes, music and note structures and the actual intent of the composer or the nature of the composer. As I said already, the final composition could carry/transfer the musicians energy but the material used to compose it is neutral. Someone just having fun could create a Halloween song making it "sound" creepy or "evil", but it's not really evil in and of itself, it just gives the impression of something creepy. Am I answering your initial question lol? I can be a bit anal in my responses but I usually have a point to be made. If you're asking me can negative energies in a composed piece of music have a negative influence I would say yes, but it's not the tones or instruments. If you're asking me if I think certain vibrations and tones are inherently evil then my answer is an obvious no.

Topic's author
#17
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
I get the distinction between the music and the composer. There is even a further distinction between key structure and particular keys used. For example, Beethoven's 5th can be done in D-minor  or E-sharp. 

Just as some arrangement of words would make most agree they are evil, and some arrangement of paint could do the same, (even getting the painter arrested), could the evil/offense ever be in the arrangement (of the words/music/notes) themselves?

When a painter is arrested for a vulgar or inappropriate painting, he is arrested for the arrangement of the paint. Had he arranged the same paint differently, he would have escaped sanction. The offense is in the arrangement, not the paint.

But music, unlike paintings, is dynamic. An arrangement of notes is supposed to "move". Each note has a relationship to the others. This is not the case with paint.

Could those relationships between the notes be what is/brings about evil?
#18
ravensjt
ravensjt's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 123
0
1
5
ravensjt's avatar
ravensjt
0
1
5
-->
@ethang5
I assume your talking about instrumental music (as opposed to lyrics)?

I know that music certainly helps with depression and isolation with certain people......same thing with art


I think that would all agree that music does communicate through emotions, evoke images, etc.......  But we would not all agree what specific emotions or images a certain piece of music might evoke though.....

Kinda leaves me to believe that music, like any art, awakens something  inside of us, its like religion (imo) in that way to me
#19
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ethang5
Could those relationships between the notes be what is/brings about evil?

Nope, the only thing "evil" that could come through music would only be through the composer in the form of energy. No music, no notes and no tones have a conscious awareness so it's impossible for any relationship between notes to be evil, in any arrangement or even have a negative energy without the transfer of it from the composer. So again it has nothing to do with music itself or notes but the energy of the composers intent.

Can't I make an eerie or scary sounding piece of music that's not evil? of course I could, I could make a Halloween song for fun that sounds scary....I could use scary music with lyrics that portray something else. Dark sounding music is not always evil either, many of the songs I love have a darker tone to them but they certainly are not evil. This kinda goes back to what I wrote above, that eerie and scary don't always mean evil. So it's the intent behind the composer that transfers any negative vibes or influence that could be tangible.
Would you classify "evil" as being a moral element? if so how can tones and notes have any morality? that's kind of what I've been saying, tones and notes have no morality or morals......they have no intentions or desires and therefore cannot be evil.

224 days later

#20
NoodIe
NoodIe's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 33
0
0
2
NoodIe's avatar
NoodIe
0
0
2
-->
@ethang5
Of course not. Evil does not exist.

#21
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@ethang5
Depends on your definition of evil.
Personally no I don't consider music evil. 
#22
mustardness
mustardness's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,979
2
2
3
mustardness's avatar
mustardness
2
2
3
-->
@Greyparrot
The source of all evil is religion.
False.  Altho the word evil may have its source in religous texts.

The words of music have power. As does  the intonation of  words.

Music is not evil. A particular aspect of an ego is the source of so called 'evil'.

Ego is the greatest danger to humanity.

The Aborigines pass on the history via a trinary set of narrative, theater and music.





1441 days later

#23
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,352
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
I'm not sure how evil is defined.

Is a sword evil, or the sun?

They lack intention, but harm can come to people from other people without intention.
I vaguely recall 'natural evil, a bad state of affairs, like a hurricane or famine.

But I'd 'think this would still require 'harm, and defined good/evil,
Maybe some people 'enjoy discordant music,
Lot of people like crying during tragic plays, or sad music.
But that's a bit relativistic and nihilistic of me.
. . .

Practically/normally speaking, I suppose some music could be considered a natural evil,
If a certain layout of it caused effects we normally consider harmful.

I suppose if music was made 'intentionally harmful,
The 'action of the maker would be considered evil,
And the music 'related to said evil.
. . .

I questioned the sun's evil, because it can burn people's skin or blind their eyes,
Even if does other stuff that is nice, like be pleasantly warm, create conditions for life, Vitamin D.
. . .

Subjective, seems to me, though of course practically speaking, people use the word evil often.
#24
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
EVIL

Is anagrams of.

LIVE VILE VEIL.


I wonder how Mr Ethan is getting on. 
#25
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,352
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Anagrams can be a fun, unusual way of looking at words,
A tilt of the head, and a new thought may enter one's head,
Viewing a word or concept, from another angle.

I don't know how ethang5 is doing,
But I hope he's doing well,
Though not too much strife between him and others.
#26
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
Well.

Mr Ethan was change fearing and GOD fearing.

And quite conservative as a result, I guess.

We were a similar age  and also probably racially similar, so when we were not arguing the GOD principle, we had a certain friendly rapport.

Though I hasten to add, that I am friendly with anyone who is happy being friendly with me.

Britain is too small and too racially diverse now, to be an isolationist.

And Golden Rule....Never discuss religion with someone you don't know.

Except over the internet, from a distance. Where people are generally keen to discuss religion anyway.


#27
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,352
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Heh, for me it's generally people I 'do know, that I avoid talking philosophy and religion with.

People unknown, it's a bit of a gamble,
But wide variety, and I feel less a need to conform to an 'image, of how I expect people see me.
. . .

Small countries,
Is the argument that small countries have to stay involved in the world, keeping alliances and such, that they don't get eaten by larger countries?

The racial diversity one I don't get?
#28
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
Come to the UK.

You cannot avoid diversity.

The "English" PM is named Rishi Sunak and the "Scottish" First Minister is named Humza Yousaf.

And the soon to be crowned King is named Charles Philip Arthur George Mountbatten-Windsor. Of Germanic descent though it was thought prudent to drop German associations, given all the 19th and 20th century grief the wider family caused.

Though to be fair, my surname is indicative of a European heredity and my features perhaps indicate Roman and Mediterranean influences. Such was the nature of European social development I suppose.

And then they all sailed to the "New World".

And out popped Lemming.
#29
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,352
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
America even back during it's isolationist era, I'd call diverse in race,
Though not 'so diverse as today,
Even when a bunch of X color people group up, they can still be from different X color races,
Bit the modern thought, of separating groups of races/people, by the most extreme differences. (Maybe)

My point/view though,
Is that even if someone came from Japan,
Once they're in the UK, whether emigrated or born, they're of the UK,
Could 'still isolate I'd think, be UK first and what.
#30
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Music could be used to spread propaganda, and those bad ones. I mean, all those war songs written in 1930s and 1940s Germany that got the young lads equipped with guns fighting for what they didn't know was an ill cause.

But what is "evil"? Certainly the average Nazi soldier doesn't know they are the bad guys. First define evil, then let's talk about how music can do that.