Captain America: Civil War Mafia - DP1

Author: Speedrace
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#1021
drafterman
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@Barney
@Vader
@Bullish
@Speedrace
@Singularity
Okay, doesn't look like the DP is over so I'll post.

As a mod-note, and it's up to Speed as to whether to implement this or not, the exception to the "everyone must vote" rule is when there is a majority wagon and the only person note voting is the person who is the target of the majority wagon. This is to exactly prevent what Pie is doing: trying to delay the game.

Now, for people who don't like this rule and want to whine about this being an example, just remember that currently there isn't any majority wagon right now and the game would still be going on anyway without it. Just saying that if Pie gets to a majority and he is still the only one not voting, the lynch should still go throw.

Back to the show.

@Singularity:

Who is on your non town list other than pie, I think my scum pool and everyone else's should be pretty small at this point. It should be easy to decide on a lynch. I can tell you I have pie in the town pile for now, u less you have inside information which you did hint at earlier. (I THINK)
This is annoying. First you accused me of not having any argument. Then I helpfully linked you to three or four posts where I explicitly outlined my argument, now you're saying it's "hidden" information. Stop being lazy. I picked Pie out of pure process of elimination.

1. There was scum on grey's wagon.
2. It wasn't you or Supa.
3. I also rulle out Bullish
4. That leaves Pie and SirAnon

I'm not replying to any more of your posts until you acknowledge that this is what I am presenting as my logic. I'm bored of having to repeat myself only for people to come in and deny that I've presented anything.

@Ragnar: See above

@Bullish:

SA was on your 3 man elimination list. Vote him. I urge you to reread Pie and find that he is not scum. Single and Supa will likely get on board. We can get this going.
I see your case on SirAnon, but I think it's too late in the DP to go for it. It's between you and Pie right now so I'll stay on Pie. The mod clarification doesn't clear him and the case against him is pretty good. Not as good as Bullish' against Sir, I think, but this is the best lynch for today.

@Supa:

Pie is town confirmed
No he isn't, don't be a derp.

#1022
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There has been a lot of development over the DP.

I think there are good cases against both Pie and SirAnon.

Bullish is even more town for me since he is doing basically what he did in South Park mafia: starting out in derp-town then popping his limitless pill and coming out with some good analysis.

His case against Sir is hard to argue and if there was momentum to switch from Pie to SA, I would jump on it, but I don't see it happening.
#1023
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Now that warren has come out of his pleasure cave to participate I town read him. Doing a post-by-post response is a tiring through to do, especially when you have 25 pages of posts to go through. I wouldn't blame him for skimming a few dozen and just doing a single catch up post. Only an invested townie has any real incentive to do what warren did, because it costs him time and effort for little gain in terms of getting read.
#1024
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@drafterman
His [Bullish] case against Sir is hard to argue

You and one or two others have said this. From what I remember his case mostly involves posts by SA that are nearly word-for-word what I would have said at the time if I was online so I am really just not seeing it. Is there anything besides SA fighting a poorly-reasoned wagon on GP that has you scum reading him?
#1025
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@ILikePie5
The further this goes on the more convinced I am that you are town and bullish is scum. You currently have 5 votes, he has 4. Cut the crap with this whole "Not voting to punish town" sillyness and vote for him to tie the wagons and make it more likely I will be able to convince town to hop on his wagon instead of yours.
#1026
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The thing that rings true for me is Sir implicitly operating on a "no thematic split" basis before the mod confirmed it.

Grey claimed in post #13. Here are the responses to that claim up to the point Speed confirms no thematic split.

Pie - A joke post, then moves on
Supa - Grey is town, then dislikes the claim after reading into it and realizing Helmut is an antagonist
Sir - Initially ignores the claim and suggests going after inactives. Without reason, questions the most obvious thematic split.
Water - Doesn't address Grey's claim directly, but questions others about it.
Bullish - Antagonist = Scum

I don't think it is out of line to believe that a Mafia game has a thematic split (unless explicitly stated) and that the thematic split is "good guys" vs. "bad guys." It's been like that in Mafia since time immemorial. Even Sir acknowledges this but, without reason, plants the seeds of doubt.

Both Supa (who we are pretty sure is town) and Bullish instinctively scum-read Grey because he claimed a villain. That is only natural for Town to do. I would have too if I was here to do it.

Water doesn't really react to the claim itself but questions others about their responses. It actually makes me slightly town read him since how people react to claims could arguably be more telling than the claim itself.

Pie's reaction is scummy since he doesn't really react. He tosses out a joke and moves on. With a claim like that, you gotta take some sort of stance, you can't just ignore it.

So Pie ignores it (scum) and Sir starts - without reason - questioning any thematic analysis and all of a sudden the mod comes in and confirms that there is no theme. Only scum would know there is no theme from the start.
#1027
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@drafterman
The thing that rings true for me is Sir implicitly operating on a "no thematic split" basis before the mod confirmed it.

False, all he did was state that the "anTaGONisT iZ ZcuM" rush was illogical. He was right to do so by the way - yes, even before speed said anything. Everything he said in that regard was nearly word for word what I would have said if I was online at the time and we could be here for an hour or so with me explaining why. You going to stay consistent and scum read me now too?
#1028
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One of my two new theories actually has SA as hard scum for actual logical reasons and the other has him as a middling town read so it is pretty exasperating that I am being made to look like I am defending him when in reality I am not defending him, I am merely attacking the ridiculous premises that are currently being used to argue his alignment.
#1029
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@Discipulus_Didicit
False, all he did was state that the "anTaGONisT iZ ZcuM" rush was illogical. He was right to do so by the way - yes, even before speed said anything.
Yeah, that's the point. He was right about a mechanic only scum would know about before the mod publicly revealed it.

Everything he said in that regard was nearly word for word what I would have said if I was online at the time and we could be here for an hour or so with me explaining why. You going to stay consistent and scum read me now too?
Except we're talking about a hypothetical versus a real. So if you want me to hypothetically scum read you based on your hypothetical actions, sure.

Also recall that I already have SA in a scum pile because of previous PoE. It isn't like this is the only reason I've scum read him. It's just adding additional logic to the numbers game.

#1030
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as a middling town read

As a middling null read*

Almost edited last post before remembering stupid do-not-edit rule.
#1031
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And listen, I'll agree that the rush to "antagonist is scum" is premature. It's a knee-jerk reaction, but one a townie would be inclined to make. But the argument against it isn't to question the thematic split for no reason but why scum-Grey would openly claim a scum character. If that ultimately leads you to question a thematic split, that is understandable, but Sir didn't present that logic.

Rather the opposite, he used his assumption of no thematic split to try and question the pressure on Grey, rather than using Grey's claim to question the assumption of a thematic split.
#1032
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@drafterman
But the argument against it isn't to question the thematic split for no reason but why scum-Grey would openly claim a scum character. If that ultimately leads you to question a thematic split, that is understandable, but Sir didn't present that logic.
<br>

Post 68 contradicts this.

I am done for now though. Pointless to make posts that someone might use to falsely claim I am defending someone that I actually see as potential scum. You are also on the right track by looking for motivations rather than looking at actions - that is something a lot of people find hard to grasp - you simply seem to be missing certain things that I am seeing. I am going to be offline for a bit. We have almost exactly 14 hours left in the DP so let's please try to wrap this shitshow up one way or another people.

By 'one way or another' I obviously mean lynching bullish, as I have been trying to do for over 950 posts now, but a vtnl or a lynch of GP (because it is the same as a vtnl) would be coolsies too. I guess I can accept a pie lynch if I have to but I don't think we are quite into 'have to' territory just yet, I say another 8 hours or so until we are.
#1033
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If we lynch Grey, Lunatic wins.
#1034
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@drafterman
He wins but the game doesn't end. You are forgetting post two.

Goodnight now.
#1035
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Right, but my goal is to win, not to be forced to play a game that I can't win.
#1036
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@drafterman
Rather the opposite, he used his assumption of no thematic split to try and question the pressure on Grey, rather than using Grey's claim to question the assumption of a thematic split.
That is blatantly false. Reread what I wrote in my theme argument with Bullish. I never assumed that there was no thematic split. In fact, my argument was the exact opposite. I was arguing that we shouldn't make assumptions about the thematic split, which is why Bullish's case that Grey's claim was scummy made no sense.

#1037
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This case against me is ridiculous. In all honesty, there is a case to be made against me because I was on Grey's wagon. However, the case drafter and Bullish are making is largely based on the fact that I didn't rush to conclusions about the theme, which is ridiculous on its face.

#1038
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@SirAnonymous
This case against me is ridiculous. In all honesty, there is a case to be made against me because I was on Grey's wagon. However, the case drafter and Bullish are making is largely based on the fact that I didn't rush to conclusions about the theme, which is ridiculous on its face.
I've had you in my scum pile by PoE because of the Grey wagon for almost the entire DP. The argument Bullish brought up, to me, is just fuel to the fire. Maybe we can write it off as confirmation bias, but all those little things add up.

I was arguing that we shouldn't make assumptions about the thematic split
Why not?
#1039
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@Discipulus_Didicit
One of my two new theories actually has SA as hard scum for actual logical reasons and the other has him as a middling [null] read
Then vote him.

I'll claim right now. I'm Falcon (Falcon, not Sam Wilson), the BODYGUARD. The chances of a bodyguard dying in the night is at least twice as high as any other townie. Plus driving scum wagons as had as I am right now is a natural lightning rod, so I'm like 4 times more likely to die as any other townie. If I don't die later, lynch me.

We can lynch SA. Drafter sounds like he'd rather be on it. You scum read SA. Lunatic will sheep you. I'm sure Pie would rather lynch SA than himself. That's 5 right there.
#1040
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@drafterman
I was arguing that we shouldn't make assumptions about the thematic split
Why not?
There was no reason. He was making assumptions about thematic split while pretending to not make assumptions about thematic split. His entire defense is contradiction upon contradiction, the same slips he made in his Office scum game. Hes been talking in circles for nearly 1000 posts, and he aint fooling me.
#1041
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@Vader
Supa, you aint dying tonight cause I'm guarding you. I know scum is too scared to play the WIFOM game with a skilled WIFOMer such as myself so you're safe.
#1042
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@drafterman
I've had you in my scum pile by PoE because of the Grey wagon for almost the entire DP. 
As you probably should. Honestly, DD town reading me the whole game up until the last few pages makes me suspect him. There really isn't any good reason to town read me.
Why not?
1. Speed didn't have a thematic split in his last game, so it was possible that there wasn't one this time as well.
2. The theme is a movie titled Civil War and focuses on the fight between the two main protagonists in the MCU. If there had been a thematic split, Iron Man vs Cap would have been just as likely as protagonists vs antagonists.
#1043
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@Bullish
There was no reason. He was making assumptions about thematic split while pretending to not make assumptions about thematic split.
I never made assumptions. Of all the possible cases against me, why are you insistently arguing the worst one available?
#1044
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Claimed
Supa - Steve Rogers - Lover with Bucky
Singularity - Bucky - Lover with Steve
GreyParrot - Helmut Zemo - Suicidal (NP3)
Lunatic - T'Challa - Lyncher (Helmut Zemo)
Pie - Rhodey - Role Cop
Bullish - Falcon - Bodyguard

Soft Claims
Ragnar - Team Cap

Unclaimed
WaterPhoenix
SirAnonymous
Discipulus_Didicit
drafterman
oromagi
warren42

UVC
ILikePie5 - 5/7 - drafterman, warren42, oromagi, SupaDudz, Ragnar
Bullish - 4/7 - Singularity, GreyParrot, SirAnonymous, Discipulus_Didicit
WaterPhoenix - 1/7 WaterPhoenix
warren42 - 1/7 - Lunatic
VTNL - 1/7 - Ragnar
SirAnonymous - 1/7 - Bullish

Not Voting: ILikePie5

#1045
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@Bullish
If you think you can get a wagon on SA, sure, but I'll switch back to Pie if I can hammer it.

VTL SA
#1046
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UVC
ILikePie5 - 4/7 - warren42, oromagi, SupaDudz, Ragnar
Bullish - 4/7 - Singularity, GreyParrot, SirAnonymous, Discipulus_Didicit
WaterPhoenix - 1/7 WaterPhoenix
warren42 - 1/7 - Lunatic
VTNL - 1/7 - Ragnar
SirAnonymous - 2/7 - Bullish, drafterman

Not Voting: ILikePie5

#1047
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Oof, Speed has Ragnar twice, but his last vote was on Pie

UVC
ILikePie5 - 4/7 - warren42, oromagi, SupaDudz, Ragnar
Bullish - 4/7 - Singularity, GreyParrot, SirAnonymous, Discipulus_Didicit
WaterPhoenix - 1/7 WaterPhoenix
warren42 - 1/7 - Lunatic
SirAnonymous - 2/7 - Bullish, drafterman

Not Voting: ILikePie5

#1048
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VTL Bullish
#1049
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Bullish and SA both fall in my scum pile, but we need a lynch and Bullish is the best option.^^^
#1050
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UVC
ILikePie5 - 4/7 - warren42, oromagi, SupaDudz, Ragnar
Bullish - 5/7 - Singularity, GreyParrot, SirAnonymous, Discipulus_Didicit, Pie
WaterPhoenix - 1/7 WaterPhoenix
warren42 - 1/7 - Lunatic
SirAnonymous - 2/7 - Bullish, drafterman