Entering Into the Kingdom Of God

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#1
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"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

This seem a very bias and hypocritical statement coming from the Christ when we consider that he had surrounded himself with very rich and influential disciples.

What was wrong with pious rich men entering the kingdom of god? 

Why  would it be less easier for a rich man than it would for a less well off man to enter the kingdom of god?

And what is actually meant by "the kingdom of God"?
#2
Discipulus_Didicit
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Your question is partially answered by verse 21 of the chapter where Jesus says the rich should give everything to the poor if they seek to be perfect (though he also implies it is possible to be 'good enough' without doing so). It is not explained why Jesus values charity but then again neither are the other commandments mentioned in the chapter, such as the prohibition of divorce or theft, really given any explanation either. Just kind of a "Jesus/god said so" type of deal.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Just a kind of human display of pious platitudes said so, type of deal.

It's interesting how monetarism and religion are seemingly inseparable. 

Isn't it fair to say that the rich/poor scenario must have been resultant of God's imprecise creation, rather than of a developed human failing.

Therefore why shouldn't God shoulder the responsibility for the existence of the successful human being.
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#4
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@Discipulus_Didicit

Your question is partially answered by verse 21 of the chapter

21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me".




Yes I thought someone would mention this but your reply is not taking into account what I wrote: >>>" when we consider that he had surrounded himself with very rich and influential disciples".

  Just to mention two.  The  Pharisee Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. I don't think his position on a ruling council of the Sanhedrin would qualify him as poor. This was a truly a loyal and devout servant of the Christ too, if we are to believe these scriptures  So much so that he would have been killed had his fellow Jews knew he was visiting Jesus "in secret".

And of course there was Joseph of Aramathea also rich and influential also a member of the council  . He along with Nicodemus took charge of the anointing and burial of Christ. They were extremely trusted and loyal to Jesus anointing Jesus with the most expensive of oils. Who also feared the Jews and was a secret disciple.

And this council wasn't your local busy bodies simply issuing rules and regulations on a local level telling people what kind of waste to put in what coloured trash bin..  No  These were high ranking priests  of Sanhedrin and presented as a political and judicial council headed by the high priest - they were judges. And that is just to name two. Hardly poor are they? 

So with that said, I don't remember reading where Jesus takes these two loyal disciples to task about their wealth. 





 
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#5
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And what about Job. A man that was blameless and upright; He feared God and shunned evil.

After the lord tore down his house  slaughtered his family and livestock and his servants, god rewarded him with thousand of sheep and oxen and camels . He must have made his one of the richest people around.

Did Job "enter the kingdom of god"?
#6
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With God, anything is possible.


The often neglected next line.

#7
BrotherDThomas
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@Mopac


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Mopac,

YOUR COMICAL QUOTE: "With God, anything is possible."

Therefore, tell us when is it possible for our serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, to adhere wholly to Stevens topic?

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@Stephen


Stephen,

Unfortunately, Jesus' inspired words admit that His Christian faith pertaining to heaven doesn't  work so well because of the following passage: "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:14)

Just think of the millions of pseudo-christians that are bending over backwards for their faith, no matter what contradicting division of the faith that they have chosen, are not going to Jesus' heaven upon their earthly demise!  Sad indeed.

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Discipulus_Didicit
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@zedvictor4
Isn't it fair to say that the rich/poor scenario must have been resultant of God's imprecise creation, rather than of a developed human failing.

Only if you believe God exists. For those that do not believe, God is blameless. Interesting then that the believer so often accuses the unbeliever of 'hating god' when the unbeliever is clearly incapable of doing so. I wonder at the psychology that makes such thinking possible. I doubt it is simple projection on the believers part. There probably is something more complicated at work.
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@BrotherDThomas
Therefore, tell us when is it possible for our serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, to adhere wholly to Stevens topic?

Mopac was quoting from the chapter that this thread is talking about, kiddo.
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@BrotherDThomas
If you really cared about people finding the narrow gate, you would be talking a lot more about salvation. Instead you make it very clear that your intent is to sow doubt, stir up strife, and undermine Christianity itself.









#12
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@Mopac
What is up with the blank space you put at the end of some of your posts by pressing 'enter' a few times anyway?
#13
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@Stephen
Don't know why I'm even answering this, perhaps for the "Gentle Reader" lol. When I answer it, you're just going to say "it doesn't say that in the text". That's why you shouldn't even be reading it, you have no clue how to deduce things from the text. That is obvious, whoops, there's that word again...

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

This seem a very bias and hypocritical statement coming from the Christ when we consider that he had surrounded himself with very rich and influential disciples.

"16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Notice, the conversation BEGINS with one man. Not everybody. 

What was wrong with pious rich men entering the kingdom of god? 

That was this particular rich mans weakness. Not everybody's . 

Why  would it be less easier for a rich man than it would for a less well off man to enter the kingdom of god?

"20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"

Note, the rich man asks what HE lacks, not everybody. 

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Note that the rich man went away sorrowful, Jesus perceived HIS weakness. That was the issue at hand. 

And what is actually meant by "the kingdom of God"?

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Like you, they knew not that Jesus was speaking about this particular rich mans weakness. 

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

The Kingdom of God is without the need for clinging to material possessions where if they become lost one becomes sorrowful and cannot move forward without them, for they go not with the individual when they leave this earth. This passage is again about principle and priorities. Very simple. 

#14
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@zedvictor4
Isn't it fair to say that the rich/poor scenario must have been resultant of God's imprecise creation, rather than of a developed human failing.

Not really. But even if it was, how is it "imprecise"? it makes no real sense either way. If man is given dominion over the earth, makes his own destiny how is it fair to say it's a resultant of God's creation? if it is a resultant of God's creation, how is it imprecise? can you explain either? if it is a result of the creation of God would it not be precise?

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@Mopac


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Mopac.

Can you address my post #7 or not?

Yes, Matthew 7:14 is truly disconcerting, isn't it? Even Jesus questions His teachings being delivered to make the gate wider but seemingly He already made the quote of not that many pseudo-christians will be entering the Pearly Gates. Even you cannot tell anyone that you are assured to pass through the narrow gate. Sad, isn't it? :(

.


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@BrotherDThomas
Everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

To walk in humility with God, that is The Way.

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@EtrnlVw
Quite simply, why would the omni-god not foresee the inequality of it's creation.

Therefore on the basis of your argument, we have to assume that the omni-god actually purposefully designed inequality.

So why then condemn mans inherent inequality?

Is this some sort of perverse test?





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#18
Stephen
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@Mopac

Mopac. First of all let ME bring it to YOUR attention, that you have joined this conversation willingly and of your own free will and that you was not dragged here kicking and screaming.

SO do not start calling me names and telling me to leave you alone and stop asking you questions.  The thread IS  QUESTIONS.

Now , to your comment.


With God, anything is possible.

If you believe that of course. But this still doesn't square Jesus's association with the rich and famous and the possibility of them entering the "kingdom of god" does it Mopac?  And you have avoided (though not surprisingly) all the questions. 

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@EtrnlVw
Don't know why I'm even answering this,

Neither do I . It won't be long before you lose thread caused by something shiny in your bedroom and you will be wondering what you was doing at your PC in the first place.

The Kingdom of God is without the need for clinging to material possessions
And have you given away all of your earthly possessions except for your computer and your phone and TV, to a poor person?

I see, so Job,  Joseph of Aramathea and Nicodemus gave way all of their wealth an possessions did they, to poor people, did they?
I bet they felt really good about themselves then. AND I bet that the recipient of all these hard earned  over a life time worldly goods was so pleased to have all these worldly possessions earned, bought and paid for by someone else just drop into their laps.

Who do you think Jesus was talking about when he spoke of "the poor" in the New Testament?


And the "kingdom of god" is not a place but simply means going without.

Strange I feel that these promised things i.e. everlasting life , going to heaven, being part of the "kingdom of god" all come after one is DEAD! and has given every penny away, to "the poor".

If you are simply trying to tell me that we can do without our possessions, just say so. But I will tell you this first:  It doesn't take a religious fawning sycophant and a belief in a god to realise that there is a  difference between need and want. 
 
 And as interesting your responses are , you have only quoted more unreliable verses from the same unreliable source.



#20
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@Stephen
What is there to answer?


The answer is always what the church teaches. If you refuse the answer of the church, that means that you aren't really looking for the correct answer. Rather, you will entertain anything but the truth.

#21
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Christ's teachings are always about the heart.

It is harder for a rich person to avoid idolatry because it is easier to live out one's fantasies and sustain one's delusions when they can be financially maintained.

The poor man doesn't have padded money armor to soften the hard swift crash of reality.


In that sense, it can be said that the rich man is at a disadvantage.


The person that Jesus was talking to here found it hard to give up his riches. Riches can very easily become an idol before God. Its really easy to become attached to the nice things we have!
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#22
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@Mopac
-> @Stephen What is there to answer?

To what? And why are you asking me questions while ignoring completely the questions in the OP?


The answer is always what the church teaches?

Not for me . You can make excuses all day long for these contradictory ambiguous half stories but explain them , you cannot.

Now please, either go to the OP read the questions and if you cannot explain them simply leave the thread.  I do not want a religious sermon from you about your church or your fkn "ultimate reality". And I don't want to clutter up my own thread by fkn repeating myself and re posting questions that you intentional keep ignoring.




#23
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@Stephen
If the church's answer is the one you categorically reject, it is because you don't want the truth.


Rather, you are here to undermine the truth. 





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#24
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@Mopac
If the church's answer is the one you categorically reject, it is because you don't want the truth.

No. Its simply because I don't believe it or the church.  
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@Stephen
Then you will believe anything but the truth. It's simple.
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@Mopac
Then you will believe anything but the truth. It's simple.

 I do marvel at times about you theists.

You appear to feel that you are in the position where you can tell the  atheist to prove for you that there is or isn't a god. And  that an atheist has to prove for you the bible to be correct or incorrect forgetting all the time that it is YOU the theist and the bible that is  making all the claims.

You and your flock are claiming the bible is truth.  "What is truth" ? asked Pilate

                                                   "The myth of Christ has served us well" . said  Pope Leo X


AND you keep missing these questions.     Have you been told to avoid them by someone else? See if you can manage the last two at least.

What was wrong with pious rich men entering the kingdom of god? 

Why  would it be less easier for a rich man than it would for a less well off man to enter the kingdom of god?

And what is actually meant by "the kingdom of God"?


#27
ethang5
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...he had surrounded himself with very rich and influential disciples.
This of course is untrue. The disciples of Jesus were poor men with very little influence. They were mostly Fishermen. Matthew, comparatively well off, was not rich. When Jesus met Peter, Peter alludes to the fact that he (and his fishermen cohorts) are "men of unclean lips". Meaning he spoke like guttersnipe.

As usual, our genius starts his lame "assessment" off with dishonesty and fakery.

If his position is so good, why the needless lie?
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#28
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@ethang5
...he had surrounded himself with very rich and influential disciples.
This of course is untrue.
 No it isn't.

The disciples of Jesus were poor men with very little influence.


Just to mention two.  The  Pharisee Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. I don't think his position on a ruling council of the Sanhedrin would qualify him as poor. This was a truly a loyal and devout servant of the Christ too, if we are to believe these scriptures  So much so that he would have been killed had his fellow Jews knew he was visiting Jesus "in secret".

And of course there was Joseph of Aramathea also rich and influential also a member of the council  . He along with Nicodemus took charge of the anointing and burial of Christ. They were extremely trusted and loyal to Jesus anointing Jesus with the most expensive of oils. Who also feared the Jews and was a secret disciple.

And this council wasn't your local busy bodies simply issuing rules and regulations on a local level telling people what kind of waste to put in what coloured trash bin..  No  These were high ranking priests  of Sanhedrin and presented as a political and judicial council headed by the high priest - they were judges. And that is just to name two. Hardly poor are they? 



They were mostly Fishermen.

Indeed their businesses was fishing.  They had fishing businesses.



Matthew, comparatively well off, was not rich.

Did he give what he had to the poor?


When Jesus met Peter, Peter alludes to the fact that he (and his fishermen cohorts) are "men of unclean lips". Meaning he spoke like guttersnipe.
What does that prove!?
I have  few rich/ well f friends who speak the fkn same . This proves nothing. It Simpy means they spoke crude as I and many of my well off friends do. 

The women in his life wer are well to do "women of substance". Those aromatic oils they bandied about like there was no tomorrow were not cheap. But they were managing to get their hands on it by the kilo. You simply do not know your scripture sunshine.

As usual, our genius starts his lame "assessment" off with dishonesty and fakery.
yes you keep saying this but never prove the accusation. how about some fkn evidence.


If his position is so good, why the needless lie?

but I haven't lied. What have I lied about. Evidence for your wild accusations is something you and mopac always fail to produce.


 "The myth of Christ has served us well" . said  Pope Leo X

#29
Mopac
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@Stephen


 I do marvel at times about you theists.

You appear to feel that you are in the position where you can tell the  atheist to prove for you that there is or isn't a god. And  that an atheist has to prove for you the bible to be correct or incorrect forgetting all the time that it is YOU the theist and the bible that is  making all the claims.

I wouldn't ask the atheist to prove anything, because I don't respect their position enough to entertain it. We k ow God exists, we have no doubt. The atheist is suffering from delusion. It is delusion that can be cured by accepting what is understood, namely that The Ultimate Reality is God. There is no reasonable doubt about God's existence. The atheist is superstitious.

You don't understand our ways.

You and your flock are claiming the bible is truth.  "What is truth" ? asked Pilate

                                                   "The myth of Christ has served us well" . said  Pope Leo X

You don't know what we believe about the bible. Pope Leo was the head of a schismatic church that had been seperated from Orthodoxy for 500 some years. 





AND you keep missing these questions.     Have you been told to avoid them by someone else? See if you can manage the last two at least.

What was wrong with pious rich men entering the kingdom of god? 

Why  would it be less easier for a rich man than it would for a less well off man to enter the kingdom of god?

And what is actually meant by "the kingdom of God"?

I'm pretty sure I answered every one of these questions in post 21
#30
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@Stephen
No it isn't.
Sure its a lie. You say "Jesus disciples" making it seem like His 12 followers, but you're talking about others, not His 12 disciples. All your "assessments" open with similar lies.

Hardly poor are they? 
Jesus didn't "surround" Himself with them, they came to Him. The disciples He chose, the ones He surrounded Himself with, were poor illiterate men. You are lying.

Indeed their businesses was fishing.  They had fishing businesses.
Lol. Like the Fish Emporium? Way to stretch that lie jasper.

What does that prove!?
That, unlike you, I've read the passages.

I have  few rich/ well f friends who speak the fkn same . This proves nothing. It Simpy means they spoke crude as I and many of my well off friends do. 
Do you clean houses for them or walk their dogs. Non of Jesus disciples were rich. You lied. You have been busted. Don't embarrass yourself further.

...but I haven't lied.
Sure you have. You lie, and then lie again to cover your first lie.

No one bought spices by the kolo genius. The measurement of the kilo would not be invented for tens of hundreds of years later. This is what I mean when I say your posts are hilarious.

What have I lied about.
In this thread? That the disciples were rich. That Jesus "surrounded" Himself with the rich, that the women in his life were are well to do "women of substance"

All lies so that you can make the ludicrous charge about a rich man entering the kingdom.

If you have to lie to make your point hosea, how good can that point be? How can lies satisfy you?

And its so petty. You don't need to lie to make your sophomoric point. It seem like you just like lying.

That's one of the things I find fascinating about you.