The Standard Argument Against Free Will (TSAAFW)

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#91

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.26.2020 10:35PM

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@ethang5

What you seem to be missing here is that "freewill" is not compatible with in-determinism (random causes and or uncaused events).

In order to "solve" the "freewill" question we don't need to know "the origin of the initial singularity" (which is beyond our epistemological limits).

In order to "solve" the "freewill" question, we only need to know that ALL events are either CAUSED or UNCAUSED or some combination of the two.

(IFF) all events are CAUSED (THEN) determinism makes your decisions (not "you")

(IFF) SOME events are CAUSED and some are UNCAUSED (THEN) UNCAUSED (indistinguishable from random) makes your decisions for you (not "you")

There is no escape.

There is no haven of ignorance in which "freewill" can hide itself.

All motives (goals) that drive your "decision making" are caused by previous events.

And the only "alternative" is that some of your motives (goals) are "uncaused" (making them indistinguishable from random).

A random action is not an action that you "choose".

A random action is not an act of WILL.

#92

ethang5

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ethang5

12.27.2020 01:43AM

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@3RU7AL

The above is what happens when you allow someone you read online to do your thinking for you. I declined going further with this subject and I continue to believe that was the right decision.

That is an action I chose.

#93

ebuc

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ebuc

12.27.2020 05:59AM

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@Mopac

@3RU7AL

(IFF) all events are CAUSED (THEN) determinism makes your decisions (not "you")
(IFF) SOME events are CAUSED and some are UNCAUSED (THEN) UNCAUSED (indistinguishable from random) makes your decisions for you (not "you")
There is no escape.

Ha, well stated 3ru7al. Excellent dude! Your on a roll with;

1} it is deterministic ergo no free will, --i think it is all this one and we just cant find the order cause the complexity stems from ultra-micro Gravity-Dark Energy and those relationships are far beyond any super-duper quantum computer ever to be built----,

2} its all randome and no free will,

3} or some combination of the two.

#94

Mopac

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Mopac

12.27.2020 06:41AM

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@3RU7AL

@ebuc

The argument against choice is fundamentally a justification for one's own weakness and inability to humble oneself before God. It is effectively blaming God, relieving oneself of the responsibility of grappling with one's own sin.

It is both deluded and maladaptive.

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#95

3RU7AL

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12.27.2020 01:21PM

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@Mopac

It is effectively blaming God

Do you believe that "YHWH" is both omnipotent and omniscient?

If you, as a NOT omnipotent and omniscient human being, if you make something that causes injury to others, you can be, well, held legally responsible for that harm, right?

But if "YHWH" makes something that causes injury to others, how do they plead?

Does "YHWH" say, "I'm not responsible because I had good intentions and less-than-perfect execution"?

Do you believe that "YHWH" is both omnipotent and omniscient?

Does "YHWH" say, "I'm not responsible because I didn't know my creation would cause injury to others"?

Does "YHWH" say, "I couldn't have done anything to prevent injury to others"?

(IFF) "freewill" is so "precious" to "YHWH" (THEN) why do they allow criminals to be incarcerated?

(IFF) incarceration works so great (THEN) why doesn't "YHWH" preemptively incarcerate all the baddies?

Do you believe that "YHWH" is both omnipotent and omniscient?

#96

Mopac

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12.27.2020 06:02PM

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@3RU7AL

The answer is very simple.

God is the source of all power and authority. All energy derives from God. That is what we mean by omnipotent.

God knows everything certainly, because nothing exists apart from God. Wherever there is existence, God is there.

But we have choice. We can choose to abide in The Eternal Way of Truth, and this is The Way of salvation. If The Way can not be seen to abide in, then purifying the heart and nous is how we see The Way to abide in it.

Certainly people can, will, and do choose evil over good. The natural consequence of a society that departs from The Way is that evil proliferates.

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#97

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.27.2020 06:05PM

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@Mopac

God is the source of all power and authority. All energy derives from God. That is what we mean by omnipotent.

It sounds like "YHWH" controls everything.

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#98

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.27.2020 06:08PM

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@Mopac

Certainly people can, will, and do choose evil over good.

But I thought you said,

nothing exists apart from God. Wherever there is existence, God is there.

Is "YHWH" both "good" and "evil"?

I mean,

How can we "choose" something that "doesn't exist"?

#99

Mopac

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Mopac

12.27.2020 06:22PM

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@3RU7AL

People put their faith in vain imaginings all the time. To do so, as scripture states, is to forsake ones own salvation.

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#100

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.27.2020 07:19PM

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@Mopac

Is "YHWH" both "good" and "evil"?

#101

Mopac

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Mopac

12.27.2020 09:09PM

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@3RU7AL

No.

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#102

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.27.2020 10:10PM

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@Mopac

Is "YHWH" both "good" and "evil"?
No.

Oh good.

That's a relief.

Who made "evil"?

#103

Mopac

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Mopac

12.27.2020 10:28PM

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@3RU7AL

Evil is the direct consequence of mankind taking what was given by God, and misusing those gifts for the sake of ego worship, the feeding of passions, and the fulfillment of fantasies. Idolatry is what causes evil. The forsaking of God. A preference for vain imaginings over The Truth.

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#104

3RU7AL

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12.27.2020 10:35PM

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@Mopac

misusing those gifts for the sake

Why didn't the "YHWH" use its omniscience to anticipate this "misuse" and take steps to mitigate it in the pre-planning stage?

#105

Mopac

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12.27.2020 11:16PM

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@3RU7AL

It isn't as if evil is a threat to God. If evil dominated the entire universe, it would be no threat to God.

People who want to control others often times cannot control themselves. God gave us the choice to choose good or evil. To choose power is to choose evil. To choose love is to choose good. If God so willed, certainly we would all be perfect little robots.

But rather, God has willed that we come to Him voluntarily out of love. We were given the freedom to choose evil ways instead of love. In that way, we can truly experience the mystery of love. God used His free will, the only true free will, to give us the freedom of choice. To control what we say and what we do. Just as God chose to not control us, so we are supposed to choose not to attempt to control others. As God chose to love us in giving us this freedom, so we are supposed to choose to love others and respect their freedom. As man is made in the image of God, you cannot love God without loving mankind.

When people forsake God, and their love for many waxes cold, evil proliferates. There is war, famine, environmental catastrophe, mental illness, instability, and wickedness abounds.

To accept the fact that there is evil in the world is to accept God's will. It is better to blame oneself for the evils of the world than to blame others. We are all sinners. What do we have control over? What we say and do. Leave the rest to God. Abide in the way of love.

As St. Seraphim of Sarov said, "Aquire the spirit of peace, and thousands around you will be saved."

Aquisition of The Holy Spirit is the purpose of Christian life.

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#106

3RU7AL

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12.31.2020 12:28PM

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@Mopac

Before "YHWH" there was "no-thing".

After "YHWH" made everything, there was "good" and "evil".

Who made "evil"?

#107

Mopac

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Mopac

12.31.2020 01:23PM

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@3RU7AL

I wouldn't even say before God, because God is not simply eternal, but pre-eternal. That is, time itself is contingent on God. It isn't so much that before God there was anything or no thing.. rather, there is no before God.

Evil is the direct consequence of man choosing darkness over light. The absense of light is darkness. The absense of good is evil. When God created everything, He said it was all good. Mankind through misuse of the potency granted to it by God makes evil.

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#108

3RU7AL

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01.01.2021 06:34PM

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@Mopac

Evil is the direct consequence of man choosing darkness over light.

So, "YHWH" didn't make "darkness"?

#109

Mopac

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01.01.2021 07:02PM

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@3RU7AL

Just as darkness is not the presence of anything but the rather the absense of light, so is evil not the presence of anything, but rather the absence of good.

What is true is Good. A truth is something that is in accord with reality, it exists. A falsehood is that which is not in accord with reality, it is nothing.

Where there is God, there is existence. There is Life. Where God isn't, there is nonexistence. There is death.

Evil has no power of its own. Rather it is the abuse of this power that has been given to all who use it to act.

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#110

3RU7AL

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01.01.2021 07:04PM

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@Mopac

Just as darkness is not the presence of anything but the rather the absense of light, so is evil not the presence of anything, but rather the absence of good.

What conceivable material can block the "light" of "YHWH"?

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#111

3RU7AL

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01.01.2021 07:06PM

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@Mopac

Where God isn't, there is nonexistence.

Exactly.

Which means that "YHWH" is literally everywhere.

SIN = NONEXISTENCE

#112

Mopac

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01.01.2021 07:12PM

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@3RU7AL

It is the death and resurection of Christ that unites that which has passed with God.

The death of death. When the Light of Truth reveals all things and nothing to be hidden, sin itself will be abolished. That is the resurection on the last day, and what it means to stand before the dread judgement seat of Christ. Darkness will not be in the presense of The Light. There will be no shadows.

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#113

3RU7AL

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01.01.2021 07:18PM

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@Mopac

SIN = NONEXISTENCE

#114

Mopac

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01.01.2021 07:32PM

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@3RU7AL

That is why it is written "They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy."