...it is you who choose not to believe God

Author: 3RU7AL 5 years ago

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3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.19.2019 02:17PM

Belief is not a "choice" any more than love is a "choice".

YOu CAN "choose" to follow someone or "choose" to DO or NOT-do some particular thing.

You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.

I can't stop believing in air.

I can't stop believing in water.

I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

I can't "choose" to believe in unicorns.

Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

For example,

I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.

I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

If you ask me "is this or that specific space-alien (gods) logically possible?" - YOU'RE GOING TO NEED TO BE VERY SPECIFIC.

Athias

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Athias

12.19.2019 06:59PM

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@3RU7AL

You need more substantiation than that. You haven't necessarily created a sufficient explanation as to how belief excludes choice.

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3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.19.2019 08:45PM

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@Athias

You need more substantiation than that. You haven't necessarily created a sufficient explanation as to how belief excludes choice.

Can you stop believing in air?

Can you stop believing in water?

Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?

You're either CONVINCED or NOT.

Athias

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Athias

12.19.2019 10:38PM

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@3RU7AL

Can you stop believing in air?

Can you stop believing in water?

Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?

Yes. But, you're still not explaining how belief excludes choice.

You're either CONVINCED or NOT.

Does this not make scrutiny and criticism futile?

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3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 12:36PM

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@Athias

Can you "choose" to believe in Santa Claus?

Can you "choose" to believe in unicorns?

Can you "choose" to believe in space-aliens?
Yes. But, you're still not explaining how belief excludes choice.

I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

I'm simply not convinced.

And as much as I try to "take you at your word", I also can't "choose" to believe YOU can arbitrarily decide to believe in Santa Claus.

I'm simply not convinced.

Topic's author

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 12:38PM

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@Athias

You're either CONVINCED or NOT.
Does this not make scrutiny and criticism futile?

No.

It simply highlights the Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence "problem".

Topic's author

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 01:00PM

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@Athias

People can seem to "choose" to believe a "trusted-source" BUT ONLY if they are first convinced that their "trusted-source" (genius, prophet, priest) is more reliable than their own judgement.

This is the root of the problem.

You should never trust (or distrust) any person or book 100%.

Athias

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Athias

12.20.2019 04:25PM

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@3RU7AL

I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

But you have "chosen" to reject the premise on which Santa Clause is based. Every time you think about Santa Clause and reject his mere notion, you're making a choice. To deny that is to reject that you're a rational agent capable of processing and discriminating information. Your acceptance of certain notions, I wouldn't doubt, contains emotional content, but you can still choose how it manifests.

Topic's author

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 04:38PM

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@Athias

I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.
But you have "chosen" to reject the premise on which Santa Clause is based. Every time you think about Santa Clause and reject his mere notion, you're making a choice. To deny that is to reject that you're a rational agent capable of processing and discriminating information. Your acceptance of certain notions, I wouldn't doubt, contains emotional content, but you can still choose how it manifests.

I'm still not convinced.

I can't "choose" to be convinced.

I'm either convinced or not convinced.

You still don't believe in Santa Claus.

#10

Athias

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Athias

12.20.2019 04:41PM

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@3RU7AL

I'm still not convinced.

I can't "choose" to be convinced.

I'm either convinced or not convinced.

You still don't believe in Santa Claus.

So, is being convinced to you primarily about emotional content?

#11

Stephen

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Stephen

12.20.2019 04:57PM

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@3RU7AL

You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.

Why can't you?

I can't stop believing in air.

You can, but you would look pretty silly not to.

I can't stop believing in water.

You can, but you would look pretty silly not to.

I can't "choose" to believe in Santa Claus.

You can, but you would look pretty silly .

I can't "choose" to believe in unicorns.

You can, but you would look pretty silly .

Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

Why do you say that.?

For example,

I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.

Why can't you?

I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

That is a choice.

I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

That too is a choice.

Do you not see how you have contradicted yourself multiple times ?

Topic's author

#12

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 05:23PM

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@Athias

What I am saying is that cognitive dissonance will allow the 'believer' to believe in lies. Since they Choose to ignore the Truth, then they chose to Believe, instead of Know.

"Vaccines are dangerous, here is the evidence"
"No, I don't believe it, I BELIEVE my Doctor."
Did they choose to Believe, by choosing to Disbelieve?

Good point. People can seem to "choose" to believe a "trusted-source" BUT ONLY if they are first convinced that their "trusted-source" (genius, prophet, priest, doctor, expert) is more reliable than their own judgement.

This is the root of the problem.

You should never trust (or distrust) any person or book 100%. [LINK]

Topic's author

#13

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 05:27PM

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@Stephen

Dear Stephen,

Please choose to believe in Santa Claus.

Right now.

Just for kicks.

But it only counts if your belief is 100% sincere.

Have you done it yet?

Do you feel the magic?

Let me know when you believe in Santa Claus.

I can't choose to believe in Santa Claus.

I need to be CONVINCED.

Topic's author

#14

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 05:30PM

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@Stephen

Do you not see how you have contradicted yourself multiple times ?

Please be slightly more specific.

Topic's author

#15

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 05:33PM

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@Athias

So, is being convinced to you primarily about emotional content?

Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).

#16

Stephen

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Stephen

12.20.2019 05:50PM

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@3RU7AL

I have been pretty clear. Just read my responses and see how they and yourself contradict what you say.

Example, you say here;

(A) I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

and here you say:

(B) I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

yet here you say;

[C] Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

but you clearly show above at (A) that YOU are choosing to believe something and at (B) YOU are also choosing NOT to believe something. i.e. YOU have made a "choice" in both cases but at [C] you clearly state that belief is simply NOT a choice.

What you seem to not be understanding is that anyone can choose to believe anything they dam well like. But, do not get upset when your beliefs to go unchallenged.

Now how about you answering my questions above at post #11.

Topic's author

#17

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 06:07PM

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@Stephen

(A) I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.

I am convinced, by EVIDENCE, that there is likely some sort of (NON-SPECIFIC) "life" on other planets and or in other galaxies.

I choose to say this.

I do not choose to believe this.

(B) I don't believe in any particular space-aliens (gods).

I am UNCONVINCED that any particular, specific space-aliens (gods) exist in any way that is distinguishable from pure-imagination.

I choose to say this.

I do not choose to "disbelieve", I'm simply UNCONVINCED.

[C] Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

(IFF) you are convinced that belief is a CHOICE (THEN) simply choose to believe in Santa Claus and let me know when you feel the magic.

but you clearly show above at (A) that YOU are choosing to believe something

Nope.

and at (B) YOU are also choosing NOT to believe something.

Nope.

i.e. YOU have made a "choice" in both cases

Nope.

but at [C] you clearly state that belief is simply NOT a choice.

I repeated it for emphasis.

What you seem to not be understanding is that anyone can choose to believe anything they dam well like.

People can only believe what they are CONVINCED of.

People can SAY they believe or disbelieve in any number of things or ideas, but NOBODY can BELIEVE unless they are CONVINCED.

But, do not get upset when your beliefs to go unchallenged.

Your scathing critique is requested (and greatly appreciated).

#18

Athias

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Athias

12.20.2019 07:08PM

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@3RU7AL

Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).

So what is this USOE on which you premise your not being convinced?

Topic's author

#19

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 07:25PM

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@Athias

Being CONVINCED is only about (USOE) Uniform-Standards-Of-Evidence (what qualifies as "true" and how do you know).
So what is this USOE on which you premise your not being convinced?

REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.

#20

Athias

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Athias

12.20.2019 07:34PM

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@3RU7AL

REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.

Do you trust this standard 100%?

Topic's author

#21

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

12.20.2019 07:39PM

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@Athias

REAL-TRUE-FACT must be scientifically verifiable with a confidence of at least 2 SIGMA and or logically necessary.
Do you trust this standard 100%?

It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.

#22

Stephen

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Stephen

12.21.2019 06:45AM

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@3RU7AL

(A) I do believe that some, non-specific space-aliens (gods) MIGHT be discovered at some point in the future.
I am convinced, by EVIDENCE, that there is likely some sort of (NON-SPECIFIC) "life" on other planets and or in other galaxies.

I choose to say this.

Then you have made a choice, haven't you. And above you admit that you have chosen.

But you have also categorically stated in your first post >>>>>> "Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

...........................................................................................................................................................................................................

Now how about answering my questions

You can't simply "choose" to believe or disbelieve in anything.

Why can't you?

Belief is simply NOT a "choice".

Why do you say that.?

For example,

I can't "choose" to believe in space-aliens.

Why can't you?

#23

Athias

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Posts: 3,192

Athias

12.23.2019 05:33PM

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@3RU7AL

It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.

Then, clearly, you've made a choice. Alternatives denote options among which you've discriminated and placed your trust, even though no one option has earned 100% of your trust.

#24

Mopac

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Mopac

12.26.2019 03:54PM

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@3RU7AL

Faith is a choice, and faith is more than simply intellectual assent. Faith is a living thing.

God is The Truth. So the real question is, what are you choosing in preference to The Truth? There is where you find the idol you prefer to God.

Simply believing that God exists is not worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. That requires a life of humility, self examination, prayer, and repentance. It is not enough to believe that God exists, the struggle is to abide in The Way, and that necessarily implies work.

7 days later

Topic's author

#25

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

01.02.2020 05:03PM

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@Athias

It's the most durable and reliable and practical standard I've encountered so far.

I don't pretend "it can never lead to inaccurate predictions" but it is certainly "less wrong" than all known alternatives.
Then, clearly, you've made a choice. Alternatives denote options among which you've discriminated and placed your trust, even though no one option has earned 100% of your trust.

I've been CONVINCED.

I never chose to be CONVINCED.

Topic's author

#26

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

01.02.2020 05:05PM

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@Mopac

Faith is a choice, and faith is more than simply intellectual assent. Faith is a living thing.

It certainly seems that way, but FIRST you had to be CONVINCED that "faith" was your "best option".

#27

Mopac

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Mopac

01.02.2020 05:30PM

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@3RU7AL

Happy new year

A first good step in that direction is finding the humility to admit that faith is not an avoidable thing in our lives.

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#28

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

01.02.2020 05:34PM

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@Mopac

A first good step in that direction is finding the humility to admit that faith is not an avoidable thing in our lives.

I avoid unjustified 100% confidence (faith) like the plague.

#29

Mopac

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Mopac

01.02.2020 05:36PM

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@3RU7AL

So do I.

Strange and unbelievable as that might seem.

And unjustified confidence is not faith to me.

Topic's author

#30

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

01.02.2020 05:40PM

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@Mopac

And unjustified confidence is not faith to me.

Please explain.