The Emperors New UBI?

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#61

ethang5

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ethang5

12.13.2019 01:07PM

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12.13.2019 01:07PM

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@DynamicSquid

It wouldn't be a challenge. It would be like debating a flat Earther.

I don't do formal debates anyway, and if I did, I'd prefer it to be fair, that is not what we get now.

Maybe Water will take it up. If he does, I'll watch.

My post to you was last. So you can concede if you don't want to continue.

Thanks for staying polite and positive.

#62

DynamicSquid

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DynamicSquid

12.14.2019 12:23AM

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@ethang5

@Discipulus_Didicit

Sure, I guess I'll just do a debate with Phoenix.

And I'll keep my promise and reply to your previous speech.

Think clearly now. The working citizen is going to lose his social benefits, AND get his taxes increased!

Most people would actually want to revive $1000 a month instead of their social benefits. And a good UBI plan (like Yang's) will actually give citizens a choice; to either revive the UBI, or continue their current benefits, one or the other.

Also, your point about taxes. The $1000/mo will make up for the increased taxes. Also, 166 other countries have a VAT, including Europe (I know it's not a country), which has a 20% VAT! We only need a 10% VAT! And out of those 166 countries, 135 of them have a VAT greater than 10%! This certainly proves that a VAT will not be the end of the world.

And then to show how dumb he thinks his supporters are, he says only citizens would receive the UBI anyway. Never disclosing that he is FOR open borders and granting citizenship to all immigrants!

I guess we're also debating politics now! Fine with me :)

Back to your point about immigrants, Yang loves immigrants! He himself is an immigrant! Any concerns you have with this website?

An increase in taxes will depreciate economic growth. Econ 101.

The revenue generated by giving people more money to economically support themselves better is too great to measure.

A UBI will increase the amount of unemployed people in a society.

What!? If anything it'll do the opposite! No study has ever found that a UBI would increase unemployment! It will without a doubt decrease unemployment!

And with the 4th industrial revolution happening, we need more jobs. Now.

A UBI requires the wealth to be generated. But
only some of the people will be wealth generators. That means the wealth generated by each working citizen will have to be more than his UBI!

I'm not exactly sure to what you're getting at here. Please elaborate.

Please, look up ponzi schemes and educate yourself. I know you mean well, but the experts at economic science agree that the UBI is nonsense.

Never heard the term Ponzi scheme next to UBI before.

Also, find me one expert that doesn't believe in UBI, and I'll show you why.

One last thing. The excuse that the samples in Finland and Canada were too small, is dishonest. In each of those countries, the number of people receiving doles was limited, while the number of working people generating the wealth was not.

What do you mean? A 320 million people is the sample size we're talking about, not a couple thousand/hundred.

The plan did not fail because it ran out of money, it failed because both countries found that the UBI increased joblessness among the recipients, made periods of joblessness longer, and decreased the amount of tax gathered by the government from the generators of wealth.

Well, it actually did run out of money, or was restricted by the budget. And also the sample size was too small to generate a sufficient income.

You tax a wealth generator, and he reduces his expenditures.

But he gets a thousand bucks a month. That is more than he gets taxed.

END

Thanks for your reply. See you soon!

Topic's author

#63

ethang5

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ethang5

12.14.2019 10:06AM

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@DynamicSquid

Never heard the term Ponzi scheme next to UBI before.

Andrew Yang Will 'Literally Give Everybody Money' — Like OneCoin Did

17 Nov 2019 · Unlike previous statements about UBI, which he has termed the ... In particular, OneCoin, the notorious cryptocurrency Ponzi scheme whose creators the ...

https://medium.com

The Marxist dream of Universal Basic Income is a Ponzi Scheme to create an ...

16 Dec 2017 · The Marxist dream of Universal Basic Income is a Ponzi ... required to fund a UBI in the State of California for a year.

UBI had warned Bengal of ponzi scheme menace - Hindustan Times

UBI had warned Bengal of ponzi scheme menace. Hindustan Times The most prominent member of the State Level Bankers' Committee (SLBC), the United ...

https://archive.intereconomics.eu › u...

Universal Basic Income – Empty Dreams of Paradise | Intereconomics

In short, a UBI would not only make us richer, but also happier. ... is the same sort of fallacy that makes people fall for Ponzi schemes

You are just young and inexperienced.

I'm not exactly sure to what you're getting at here. Please elaborate.

If everyone is getting a UBI, but only some are paying into it, it is a ponzi scheme. So the few who pay, will have to pay more to cover those who don't.

Tag me if the debate happens.

#64

Discipulus_Didicit

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Discipulus_Didicit

12.14.2019 12:37PM

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@DynamicSquid

But he gets a thousand bucks a month. That is more than he gets taxed.

Oh neat, it is like a magic trick. The magician puts a one dollar bill into his hat then pulls a five out. Rinse and repeat for infinite wealth.

Topic's author

#65

ethang5

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ethang5

12.14.2019 02:29PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Actually I didn't know how scuzzy Yang was till I visited his site. He's just a political crook. He will be a good education for the young idealists who follow him.

#66

DynamicSquid

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DynamicSquid

12.14.2019 05:01PM

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@ethang5

@Discipulus_Didicit

Hmm... Money seems to be the issue here.

Putting a dollar into a hat and pulling 5 out is not how UBI works. The money giving to the people will get circulated through the economy, creating a trickle up economy.

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The money will be used for development and innovation, and will indirectly return to the people (more jobs, better services, etc.)

Also, what other candidates talks about economy the way Yang does?

#67

Barney

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Barney

12.14.2019 06:13PM

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12.14.2019 06:13PM

Money in circulation creates a cool multiplier effect while it changes hands. Poor people of course spend a greater percentage of any extra money they get.

Of course yes, inflation is where my mind goes to risk factors on these things. Some inflation is inevitable, but we do need to be careful to avoid hyperinflation.

Topic's author

#68

ethang5

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ethang5

12.14.2019 06:43PM

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@DynamicSquid

Putting a dollar into a hat and pulling 5 out is not how UBI works.

Of course. Nothing works that way. Which is why the UBI is nonsense.

The money giving to the people will get circulated through the economy, creating a trickle up economy.

Where the money goes is not the problem, where its supposed to come from is the question.

The money will be used for development and innovation, and will indirectly return to the people (more jobs, better services, etc.)

Sorry man, but that is just illogical. It makes no sense. No system can put out more than is put into it.

Also, what other candidates talks about economy the way Yang does?

Most other candidates probably took some economy classes sometime during their education.

#69

Discipulus_Didicit

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Discipulus_Didicit

12.15.2019 02:04AM

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@DynamicSquid

Hmm... Money seems to be the issue here.

Money is the issue in a proposal to give everyone free money? You don't say...

Well actually as I said before mymain objection would be the moral concern of taxpayers not being able to see where their money is going. If I get my girlfriend pregnant and pay for the abortion with my free government check that is a legitimate problem considering a portion of that check was funded by taxpayers like ethang that are against abortion. That is just one example off the top of my head, I could name dozens more if given just a few minutes to do so.

But yeah the feasability of getting the money in the first place is a concern too as explained in post 44.

Topic's author

#70

ethang5

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ethang5

12.15.2019 05:54AM

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12.15.2019 05:54AM

My questions to Yang would be....

1. Why limit UBI? If its s good, why shouldn't the government simply print up money and give it to people?

2. Why wouldn't the trickle-up theory work with that situation?

3. The UBI seems to violate the most basic tenants of economics, the laws of supply and demand.

a. If you gave away free money, the value of money depreciates. (Inflation)

b. If you increase taxes, fewer people pay taxes.

c. If wealth generators are not adequately compensated, they will cease generating wealth.

These common and well known facts make UBI's the economic equivalent of the perpetual motion machine. Impossible.

#71

DynamicSquid

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DynamicSquid

12.16.2019 01:14AM

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@ethang5

@Barney

@Discipulus_Didicit

I'm getting bombarded with questions by three different people. I think I have a better solution. Just ask me a question. That way this debate will be neat. So after you read this post and still disagree, just ask me a question :)

Won't it cause inflation?

No, a UBI won't cause inflation. Inflation is caused when we print too much money, however, in this case, no one is printing money. We are just using original money. So no, a UBI won't cause inflation.

How can we pay for it?

We can pay for a UBI.

VAT of 10% - $800 billion
Saved healthcare costs - $150 billion
Cancellation of social programs (UBI, or current social services) - $500 billion
Economic growth - $300 billion per year

Of course this won't completely pay off the cost of a UBI, however, it can sufficiently pay off a UBI, so much so that the benefits will be worth the cost.

This money could be used for anything!

DisDid (can I call you DidDid?) brought up a good point. We all are paying taxes to pay for a UBI, however, people may spend their UBI on something against my views.

That's actually a very good point. However, I find it highly opinion based. I'm sure that there's some people that don't care. And besides, I do believe that this money will be used for more good than bad, if that makes any sense.

END.

#72

Discipulus_Didicit

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Discipulus_Didicit

12.17.2019 02:34AM

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@DynamicSquid

DisDid (can I call you DidDid?) brought up a good point. We all are paying taxes to pay for a UBI, however, people may spend their UBI on something against my views.

That's actually a very good point. However, I find it highly opinion based. I'm sure that there's some people that don't care.

Everyone would have a problem with some portion of how the UBI paychecks are spent. Some wouldn't like that there are people that indirectly fund dangerous cartels by buying drugs off the street for personal use, some people wouldn't like that there are those who would donate to political campaigns that they disagree with (this would be a big one for the U.S. since in today's political climate there is no such thing as 'a political party disagree with', there is only 'the political party I agree with' and '''' political party that is full of rabidly evil baby-killing commies/fascists'). Some wouldn't like that a portion of their tax dollars are wasted on gambling or pyramid scheme investments or any of a dozen other things. They would have no say in the matter though because the UBI would just be a cash deposit into people's bank accounts.