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Author: disgusted

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#61
SirAnonymous
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@Greyparrot
Even if you don't see that world police policies lead to serious long term problems, you have to admit that today NATO is a huge financial liability for America right now
I do admit that several of the NATO members aren't paying as much as they should so the US has to pay more than its fair share, but NATO is worth it.
and has enabled EU countries from taking much needed local responsibility in places like Syria.

We can't even get them to take responsibility of the captured ISIS nationals!
That is a problem, but NATO isn't meant to deal with the Middle East, although it would be nice if its members did more to help.
That's some serious EU impotency and irresponsibility NATO has enabled. That's what I mean by atrophy.
Yes, it has allowed other NATO counties to atrophy their militaries (The stupid spellchecker thinks that isn't a word),  but it is better than letting them get overrun by Russia. I'm not saying that NATO or police actions are perfect. I'm just saying that NATO is worth the problems it brings and that police actions are frequently useful and necessary. I think we should put "America First," but that we should never allow it to become "America Only." It is a good thing for America to put pressure on dictatorships and conquerors, like what FDR did with the sanctions on Japan. It is a good thing to get involved in wars if we can save lives and bring freedom by doing so. That doesn't mean that sanctions or intervention will always be successful or that we'll never make mistakes, but it does mean that we shouldn't isolate ourselves because we cling too tightly to a slogan.
What's also glaring with the manchild in the basement metaphor is that these policed countries don't want us there and don't want America telling them what their responsibilities are and what they ought to do, but will gladly take our money.
That's an inaccurate generalization. Eastern European countries, Germany, and South Korea definitely want us there.
These 1 sided alliances are not making life better for Americans.
They do, but they're like a fire department. It would be easy for us to look around and say that the fire department doesn't make our lives any better. But if we got rid of the fire department, what would we do when our houses started burning? Like a fire department, defensive alliances like NATO don't appear to do us any good when there are no major wars to fight. But when a war starts, it's easy to see how they help us. Most of the time, NATO doesn't do anything for Americans but add to their taxes. However, the ability of NATO to win and, even more importantly, to deter wars definitely makes our lives better.
#62
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@SirAnonymous
However, the ability of NATO to win and, even more importantly, to deter wars definitely makes our lives better.

The recent Syrian example and less recently, the inaction of NATO on behalf of Ukraine debunks this projection of NATO's benefits to America or Europe. Germany pays Russia more money right now for fossil fuels than it pays to NATO...
#63
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@Greyparrot
The recent Syrian example and less recently, the inaction of NATO on behalf of Ukraine debunks this projection of NATO's benefits to America or Europe.
NATO isn't meant to deal with the Middle East and Ukraine isn't a NATO member, although it probably should be. Yes, NATO has sometimes failed. That does not debunk its utility. Russia is still kept at bay.
Germany pays Russia more money right now for fossil fuels than it pays to NATO...
Germany has some serious issues, and I'm not saying NATO or its members are perfect. However, NATO is definitely better than no NATO.
#64
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@SirAnonymous
But if we got rid of the fire department, what would we do when our houses started burning?
If the Fire Department was effective as NATO in protecting American interests, I would most certainly disband them.

#65
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@Greyparrot
If the Fire Department was effective as NATO in protecting American interests, I would most certainly disband them.
NATO was instrumental in the collapse of the USSR. Its existence has led to over 70 years of peace in Europe. It has been incredibly successful. Read this article. It can explain things better than I can. Foreign policy is not my forte.

#66
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NATO was instrumental in the collapse of the USSR.

Even if that was true, the fact that this collapse happened means there is no more current need for NATO. When Russia's GDP surpasses Canada's, maybe we can again take them as a legitimate threat.
#67
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@SirAnonymous
NATO also almost helped start WW III by giving Russia Casus Belli during the Cuban Missle Crisis.

Luckily JFK was wise enough to pull missiles out of NATO countries before that policing action started a 3rd war.
#68
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@Greyparrot
Even if that was true, the fact that this happened means there is no more need for NATO.
It is true. There is still a need for NATO. Read the article.

#69
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@Greyparrot
NATO also almost helped start WW III by giving Russia Casus Belli during the Cuban Missle Crisis.
That's not what happened. The missiles in Cuba were the provocation. The missiles removed from NATO countries (I think Turkey) were the bargaining piece used as an exchange to get nukes out of Cuba.

#70
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@SirAnonymous
The missiles in Cuba were the provocation. 

Not at all. The missiles in Turkey were the provocation. That kind of ethnocentric thinking is bad for foreign policy and world peace.
#71
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@Greyparrot
The missiles in Cuba were the direct provocation, although, after looking it up, I did find that you are partly right, though not entirely. There were several factors that led Russia to put the missiles in Cuba, including the missiles in Turkey, the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and the construction of the Berlin Wall.
Regardless of that, how is saying that the missiles in Cuba were the provocation in any way ethnocentric?

#72
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@SirAnonymous
I'm saying ignoring the actions of world police policies to give other nations cause to harm Amerca should not be obfuscated or ignored. America had ZERO BUSINESS and no justification other than an obligation for being a "world police force" for installing American Missles in Turkey. 

#73
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@Greyparrot
I'm saying ignoring the actions of world police policies to give other nations cause to harm Amerca should not be obfuscated or ignored.
I thought you were saying that we didn't need NATO. Regardless, I don't deny that police actions can provoke other nations. However, I don't think that the lives saved by police actions should be ignored either.
America had ZERO BUSINESS and no justification other than an obligation for being a "world police force" for installing American Missles in Turkey. 
That's not true. The USSR was a direct threat to the US. It was in our interests to have missiles in position to deter them. Also, we were allies with Turkey and many other European countries, and it is in our interests to honor alliances (but not without exceptions. They need to kick Turkey out of NATO).


#74
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@SirAnonymous
Regardless of that, how is saying that the missiles in Cuba were the provocation in any way ethnocentric?

Because ethnocentrism justifies the exact same action (placing missiles near another country) by refusing to see the other side.

Ethnocentrism should never be the justification for world police policies. That is how you create long term problems.
#75
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@Greyparrot
Because ethnocentrism justifies the exact same action (placing missiles near another country) by refusing to see the other side.
Simply because ethnocentrism could be used to justify it does not automatically mean it is ethnocentric. Racism could be a reason for firing someone. That doesn't mean that firing someone is necessarily racist. Also, the other side was the perpetuation and expansion of communism. It's not like the Cold Way was a misunderstanding that could have been solved by seeing the other side.

Ethnocentrism should never be the justification for world police policies. That is how you create long term problems.
I agree, but couldn't that be used against the quasi-isolationist America First ideas you're suggesting?
#76
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@SirAnonymous
I agree, but couldn't that be used against the quasi-isolationist America First ideas you're suggesting?

America first is the policy of non-aggression by not intervening in the first place. The fact that you can't see that the interventionalist missiles in Turkey started the Cuban Missle Crisis and the removal of them ended the Missle Crisis speaks volumes of your cultural bias.
#77
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@Greyparrot
America first is the policy of non-aggression by not intervening in the first place.
I'm aware of that, but inaction is just as capable of being ethnocentric as action.
The fact that you can't see that the interventionalist missiles in Turkey started the Cuban Missle Crisis and the removal of them ended the Missle Crisis speaks volumes of your cultural bias.
I don't deny being biased. To deny having biases is illogical. Humans are naturally biased toward their own opinions, families, countries, and other groups to which they belong or desire to join. In this instance, however, it is not bias that motivates me. It is a fact that, while the missiles in Turkey were a cause, they were not the only cause, nor were they the direct cause. I linked a source supporting this. I could point you to many others. Where is yours?
#78
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Ha! I can get rid of <br> by editing my posts.
#79
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@bmdrocks21
But whatever, what is your question? If the bombs were justified?
I believe my questions are clear and you still have no answer. H,mmm.........interesting.

#80
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@ebuc
Don't be mad because you didn't know Truman was a Democrat.
#81
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@bmdrocks21
But whatever, what is your question? If the bombs were justified?
1} you choose not to answer the questions as presented---out of fear{?}---

2} you project a false narrative on to me, to protect your ego, that appears to be in fear{?} of answering the questions, as presented,

3} ? ? ?



#82
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@ebuc
Simmer down.
#83
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@bmdrocks21
Simmer down.
Same false projections and false narrative. Sad :--(

Cant answer the questions all you have to offer is ego drivel. Sad :--(

Reminds me of stroke victums who mumble out of one side of their mouth drivel.



#84
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@ebuc
I said 'simmer down'.

When you have taken a deep breath and stopped seething with rage, come back to have a discussion. 

#85
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@bmdrocks21
When you have taken a deep breath and stopped seething with rage, come back to have a discussion. 
1} When you want to stop your drivel of false projections,

2} and false narrative,

3} answer the questions as presented,

4} thenwe can attempt rational, logical common sense disscussion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All is fair in love and war?  Huh?

Was bombing of downtown market of Dresden Germany necessary? Was it morally superior?

Same goes for atomic bombs dropped on Japan? Was the first necessary and morally superior?  Was the 2nd necessary and morally superior?

Is non-violence ---ex Ghandi---   morally superior?


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#86
disgusted
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@bmdrocks21
The thread went straight over your wingnut heads. Fucking hilarious.
#87
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@disgusted
It did go super off topic. Could you link to the video so I can get some context?
#88
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@bmdrocks21
I had no Idea all it takes is a spray-tan and you are immune to border enforcement from any nation...

#89
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@Greyparrot
Except if you are spray-tanned orange. Orange man bad....very bad.
#90
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@ebuc
All is fair in love and war?  Huh?

Was bombing of downtown market of Dresden Germany necessary? Was it morally superior?

Same goes for atomic bombs dropped on Japan? Was the first necessary and morally superior?  Was the 2nd necessary and morally superior?

Is non-violence ---ex Ghandi---   morally superior?

No, not all is fair in love and war.

Atom bombs were debatably justifiable. It ended a war that would have otherwise required a full invasion and more non-nuclear bombing. Lots of deaths would have been done there, maybe even more than occurred with the atomic bombs.

Non-violence is preferable but not always possible.