paying other countries to take migrants, or paying those who starve

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#1
linate
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i am against migrants coming to seek refuge in the usa. their culture is the main reason i am against it. but i always said we can help other countries who do decide to help them. you might even call it 'bribing' them. we see there are only so many migrants out there. 

"Moreover, most of the growth in the global population of international migrants has been caused by movements toward high-income countries, which host 64 million of the 85 million migrants added since 2000. The number of international migrants includes 26 million refugees or asylum seekers, or about 10% of the total.Dec 18, 2017"

what if we paid whatever country that takes them, two dollars a day to pay the refugees who can then spend the money? that quote that i think that there are only between one and two million migrants per year. the math comes out to maybe one or two billion dollars in cost. the payments can be temporary until those economies can assimilate the migrants. 

see, i think the global population will eventually level out, as many expect. just like happens in developed countries. what we have in the mean time, though, is food insecure places with people needing to find secure places to go. instead of just casting these people to lala land, we help the free market take it all in. see, i'm not against immigration, i'm just against large amounts beyond what we already do, because that could be disruptive.... it has to be gradual. eventually, the world populations will level out. i'm sure we can't all live like americans do now, but atl east people will be able to live. 

i suppose if i'm willing to pay other countries to take them, it might be easier to just pay two dollars a day to people where they live to stimulate those economies. they say we only need to spend around thirty billion a year to solve hunger. that's a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend, with our GDP being over twenty trillion. 

there are of course kinks that would need to be worked out. but this is all a good start, isn't it?
#2
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One of two things will eventually happen in every refugee saturated country.

1) controlled borders.
2) elimination of welfare.

Both of these are mutually exclusive. It is a straight up an either/or inevitability.

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@linate
Why?

Why should we have to pay anyone? For what? Take that money and give it to the citizens to whom it belongs.

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13% of the U.S. population is born outside of the United States,

If you include their U.S.-born children, one in four residents are part of first or second immigrant generations.

Xenophobia is real and it shows itself in the Immigration Debate everyday


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@linate
that's an interesting idea
immigration should largely be merit based imo
my concern is doing what you propose will have similar consequences with food
the cheap and subsidized U.S. food has all but destroyed farms in many other countries.
By paying these poor that could be creating an addicting entitlement.  But I think we agree we should enable these people to be as self sufficient as possible.  Throwing money at problems rarely works.  Saw some charity on tv that the money would be used for water purification systems.  I do like the charity that gives people animals to raise and breed.  The whole teach a man to fish idea....

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#6
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so ya'll who are against assisting the migrants in any way, do you propose just letting them starve and kill each other? you don't see any viable way to avoid that?
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i am against migrants coming to seek refuge in the usa. their culture is the main reason i am against it. but i always said we can help other countries who do decide to help them. you might even call it 'bribing' them. we see there are only so many migrants out there. 
Interesting, I wasn't aware there was some singular, monolithic "migrant culture." Can you elaborate on this culture and how it conflicts with coming into the USA?

what if we paid whatever country that takes them, two dollars a day to pay the refugees who can then spend the money? that quote that i think that there are only between one and two million migrants per year. the math comes out to maybe one or two billion dollars in cost. the payments can be temporary until those economies can assimilate the migrants. 
Well, of all the plans I've heard to "solve" the migrant "problem" this is perhaps the least thought out. How would paying another country change anything? The migrants that come here want to come here. The USA isn't their second choice. They're not trying to go someplace else that has closed borders and then snapping their fingers, going "ah shucks" then coming here.

Bribing another country to take them only works if there is another country they want to go to that is turning them away. If the USA is their first choice, paying another country to loosen their borders won't change their mind; they'll still want to come into the US!

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@ravensjt
Don't you think it is a bit misleading when you say 13% of the population is this or that?  What we really need to address is that some areas of the country are 80% this or that, or even 100% this or that.  In my area, it is now 70% of the population are immigrants, mostly African, Spanish, Asian, or Indian.  If you were born in my area around my age, regardless if you are minority or not, the demographic change has driven you away.  Most don't even realize that is why they decided to move, or they just don't admit it.   Try to order a coffee at Dunkin Donuts drive through around here and see if you understand what they say....or if they understand what you say.   It gets really annoying.

I grew up in the same location that I live in now.  No one that I grew up with lives here anymore.  They have all moved North to more rural areas, only to be replaced by more immigrants here.  I have no problem with immigration, but I do have a problem with the inevitable segregation that occurs, and the lack of motivation to learn English.  I would never move to another country and not know the language, it's just dumb..... but people do it here, why?  

Because they can find an area that most people speak their language and have the same culture, why would you move anywhere else?  This causes the segregation of culture and heritage.  Not the America that I think we intended.
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@ravensjt
Xenophobia exists yes, but that is no reason to give other people's money away. Russians should have Russian money. Angolans should have 1st dibs on Angolans money. Why not?

If I were president of a country, not one red cent of my country would be given to any non-citizen as long as a citizen needed money. We (the US) give millions to foreigners while little American girls die in hospitals for lack of medical care funds. That is so wrong it is obscene.

We should not bribe any country. We don't need to. We owe them nothing. When America's money has been spent on Americans, and we have some left over, sure, give it to the foreign needy, but not until Betty-Sue is healthy, secure, and happy.
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@DBlaze
The result of accepting mass refugees and illegal aliens is the creation of cultural reservations under American jurisdiction. America can't afford to fund any more cultural zoos the liberals enjoy gawking at while virtue signalling.
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@ethang5
Xenophobia exists yes, but that is no reason to give other people's money away. Russians should have Russian money. Angolans should have 1st dibs on Angolans money. Why not?

If I were president of a country, not one red cent of my country would be given to any non-citizen as long as a citizen needed money. We (the US) give millions to foreigners while little American girls die in hospitals for lack of medical care funds. That is so wrong it is obscene.

We should not bribe any country. We don't need to. We owe them nothing. When America's money has been spent on Americans, and we have some left over, sure, give it to the foreign needy, but not until Betty-Sue is healthy, secure, and happy.

What you are talking about is a misappropration of our funds bro. Little girls die in our hospitals because of ridiculous privatized healthcare costs, not because money is given to foreigners.

We have sports athletes and entertainers making 10's (100's) of millions of dollars a year..... so the money is there.

And remember that if you want everyone to keep their own money, then America would not be the Leaders of the World we are today.

America would drown without the help (exploitation) of Mexico, the African Continent/ Middle East and Asia.

Cant have it both ways

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@DBlaze
Don't you think it is a bit misleading when you say 13% of the population is this or that?  What we really need to address is that some areas of the country are 80% this or that, or even 100% this or that.  In my area, it is now 70% of the population are immigrants, mostly African, Spanish, Asian, or Indian.  If you were born in my area around my age, regardless if you are minority or not, the demographic change has driven you away.  Most don't even realize that is why they decided to move, or they just don't admit it.   Try to order a coffee at Dunkin Donuts drive through around here and see if you understand what they say....or if they understand what you say.   It gets really annoying.

I grew up in the same location that I live in now.  No one that I grew up with lives here anymore.  They have all moved North to more rural areas, only to be replaced by more immigrants here.  I have no problem with immigration, but I do have a problem with the inevitable segregation that occurs, and the lack of motivation to learn English.  I would never move to another country and not know the language, it's just dumb..... but people do it here, why?  

Because they can find an area that most people speak their language and have the same culture, why would you move anywhere else?  This causes the segregation of culture and heritage.  Not the America that I think we intended.

Then you understand the ridiculousness of Xenophobia. 

As far as people moving here and not knowing the language, I hope you do realize that difficulty in being able to learn another language. I also hope you realize that this is asked of no American who moves anywhere else in the World (I've lived in multiple Countries in my lifetime)

Perhaps someone should learn the basics of a language, or have some means of translation, but to ask someone to drop their language to learn another is cultural suicide. (imo)


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@ravensjt
My point is... I would never move to another country without learning the language. Even some countries dialects and accents need practice to understand, and its the same language (like Scotland).  I didn't say there aren't other people that do it, but I doubt there a more people leaving the US doing this than coming in.  And let's say I had no choice for some reason or another, like a job transfer, I would at least learn a bit of it before I went, or have someone with me that did speak the language.  You wouldn't believe the amount of stores, restaurants, retail spaces, landlords, Assisted Living houses etc.  that have their own customers, or tenants, neighbors, or just random people call me requesting service because they (the owner and potential customer) cannot speak English (sometimes they get mad that there is no one on staff that speaks their language).. and no acquaintances can speak English either. 

It is very, very frustrating on my end.  But I guess I see the worst of it because of the industry I am in.  

Here is what I see happening.  Someone makes some money in their own country, saves it up, purchases a business, commercial property or rental properties in the US, then moves here to run said business, but never even thinks about learning the language, or cares about it. 

Or, they purchase the business from relatives that have already been here, making it easier to not only become a citizen, but change ownership without learning the language. 

Let's say it is a shopping center they purchase, they end up converting the shopping center into an ethnic shopping center centered around the country they are from, basically because they moved to an area that is predominantly their own culture. 

All of these scenarios makes sense in so many different revenue/profitable ways, unfortunately it is to the detriment of the US.   
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@ravensjt
What you are talking about is a misappropration of our funds bro.
I don't see how. Those funds are owned by the American people. It cannot be wrong to give it to them.

Little girls die in our hospitals because of ridiculous privatized healthcare costs, not because money is given to foreigners.
I did not say little girls die because money is given to foreigners. I said any money the country has should first be used to save its citizens, instead of being given to foreigners.

We have sports athletes and entertainers making 10's (100's) of millions of dollars a year..... so the money is there.
That money is made by them and owned by them. I do not think taking money from people who have legally made it to give to others who have not, is fairness or freedom. If the government has money to give to non-citizens, then the money is there. I say we use it first on Americans.

And remember that if you want everyone to keep their own money, then America would not be the Leaders of the World we are today.
Untrue. America is great because it never went down the socialist route. Americans had incentive to push, innovate, excel. No socialist country has ever succeeded. A conerstone of our culture is that you get to keep what you earn. (Less a little tax)

America would drown without the help (exploitation) of Mexico, the African Continent/ Middle East and Asia.

Cant have it both ways
Well, help and exploitation aren't the same thing. America would soar if it took care of Americans first.
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I love the Idiots who think America has some sort of "bargain" or "deal" with the international community.

The international community gives America exactly ZERO charity. That's no "bargain." NATO gives America ZERO security. Russia could start an all out war on Europe and America would be completely untouched, just like any of the other countless European/middle east conflicts where America is/was not involved. In fact, especially in recent history, sticking American noses where it does not belong actually tends to create security risks where none was there before.
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@DBlaze
My point is... I would never move to another country without learning the language. Even some countries dialects and accents need practice to understand, and its the same language (like Scotland).  I didn't say there aren't other people that do it, but I doubt there a more people leaving the US doing this than coming in.  And let's say I had no choice for some reason or another, like a job transfer, I would at least learn a bit of it before I went, or have someone with me that did speak the language.  You wouldn't believe the amount of stores, restaurants, retail spaces, landlords, Assisted Living houses etc.  that have their own customers, or tenants, neighbors, or just random people call me requesting service because they (the owner and potential customer) cannot speak English (sometimes they get mad that there is no one on staff that speaks their language).. and no acquaintances can speak English either. 

One thing that also needs to be taken into account is why people are relocating...... If I was fleeing oppression, would I only go to native language speaking Countries or would I go to where I thought I had the best chance for me and mine to survive? Dont you think it's more frustrating for them to not be understood than for us to understand them?

If your career field offered you a substantial bonus and/or opportunity for you to thrive, would you turn it down because you werent fluid in the language or would you attempt to learn the bare essentials and take the chance?.......Suppose it was a life and death situation?



Here is what I see happening.  Someone makes some money in their own country, saves it up, purchases a business, commercial property or rental properties in the US, then moves here to run said business, but never even thinks about learning the language, or cares about it. 

Or, they purchase the business from relatives that have already been here, making it easier to not only become a citizen, but change ownership without learning the language. 

Let's say it is a shopping center they purchase, they end up converting the shopping center into an ethnic shopping center centered around the country they are from, basically because they moved to an area that is predominantly their own culture.  

All of these scenarios makes sense in so many different revenue/profitable ways, unfortunately it is to the detriment of the US. 

While that happens, that is the overwhelming minority of the immigrants who come here.





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@ethang5
I don't see how. Those funds are owned by the American people. It cannot be wrong to give it to them.
Misopropitation has nothing to do with ownership, it has to do with misuse/waste


That money is made by them and owned by them. I do not think taking money from people who have legally made it to give to others who have not, is fairness or freedom. If the government has money to give to non-citizens, then the money is there. I say we use it first on Americans.

Give to non-citizens? who are you talking about specifically? Foreign Aid? Illegals?

Illegals pay taxes and boost the economy (which helps Americans) Foreign Aid boosts National Security (which helps Americans)

Who are you referring to?

Untrue. America is great because it never went down the socialist route. Americans had incentive to push, innovate, excel. No socialist country has ever succeeded. A conerstone of our culture is that you get to keep what you earn. (Less a little tax)

Said with Rose-Colored glasses but it's an incomplete representation of our history without mentioning that we have been at War for 222 outta the last 239 years of our existence. (unless thats what you meant by "push")

To mention socialism is a red herring and straw man not to mention a false dichotomy because I never mentioned it nor is it the only answer.


Dont forget that when you mention "America First" that America imports much more than we export.



An  altruistic approach to foreigners is not helpful to Americans at all neither morally or spiritually imo




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@ethang5
This video:


Is the result of a long term policy of open borders combined with a welfare state. America does NOT need this!

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ethang5
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@ravensjt
Misopropitation has nothing to do with ownership, it has to do with misuse/waste
It has everything to do with ownership. People who do not own my money cannot charge me with waste of my money. It is my right to spend it as I think is fit. The same applies to America. If America owns the money, they have the perfect right to spend it as they wish.
Waste would be spending it on things the people don't want.

Give to non-citizens? who are you talking about specifically? Foreign Aid? Illegals?
Any non-citizen.

Illegals pay taxes and boost the economy (which helps Americans)
Illegals should not be here in the first place. And talk about rose colored glasses! They are an overall drain on the economy through crime and social services.

....it's an incomplete representation of our history without mentioning that we have been at War for 222 outta the last 239 years
How is this relevant to our subject? Our money is for Americans. It should be used on Americans.

To mention socialism is a red herring and straw man not to mention a false dichotomy because I never mentioned it nor is it the only answer.
Any system where you pretend the earnings of profitable people are the property of everyone is socialism. Call it whatever you want. A rose by another name is still a rose.

Dont forget that when you mention "America First" that America imports much more than we export.
If the government used Americans money on Americans first, we wouldn't need so many imports. Sorry, but I fail to see how using the people's money on the people is wrong.

An  altruistic approach to foreigners is not helpful to Americans at all neither morally or spiritually imo
I think you meant selfish, not altruistic. But altruism is not giving the people's money to things not intent ended by the people. Foreigners are not entitled to the money Americans own. Only Americans are.
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@Greyparrot
No sir. America does not need that. But according to liberals, all the illegals are paying taxes and being boy scouts.

Thank God for YouTube. They can't hide stuff like this from the people any more.
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@ethang5
It has everything to do with ownership. People who do not own my money cannot charge me with waste of my money. It is my right to spend it as I think is fit. The same applies to America. If America owns the money, they have the perfect right to spend it as they wish.
Waste would be spending it on things the people don't want.
Now your moving the goalpost bro America isnt spending money on things people dont want, thats what elections are for. It is your Right to spend your money as you see fit, but that doesnt mean that you aren't wasting it by spending it in illogical ways (misappropriation)

Illegals should not be here in the first place. And talk about rose colored glasses! They are an overall drain on the economy through crime and social services

Undocumented immigrants contribute significantly to state and local taxes,collectively paying an estimated $11.64 billion a year..... And they commit  less crime than native born citizens

How is this relevant to our subject? Our money is for Americans. It should be used on Americans.
It's completely relevant if your premise is that America has achieved it's greatness off of the merits you listed previously while ignoring that we have also profited off of exploitation of many foreign Nations which you choose to ignore. (see the Middle East and African exploitation today).

It's disingenuous to mention one without the other


Any system where you pretend the earnings of profitable people are the property of everyone is socialism. Call it whatever you want. A rose by another name is still a rose.
Do you pay taxes?

If the government used Americans money on Americans first, we wouldn't need so many imports. Sorry, but I fail to see how using the people's money on the people is wrong.

That makes no sense Bro. We don't import to help Non-Americans


I think you meant selfish, not altruistic. But altruism is not giving the people's money to things not intent ended by the people. Foreigners are not entitled to the money Americans own. Only Americans are.

So your against trade also? 

#22
ravensjt
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@ethang5
The video posted by GP is about homelessness in America, It has nothing to do with what we are talking about (he does that)

homelessness is caused by things outside of immigration:

Dropping out of school
Living pay check to paycheck
Having kids in an unstable home
spending and not saving
etc



One thing I agree with Trump on is bringing more jobs back to America as to that would help the homelessness problem

Fixing the homeless situation has never been a priority in America







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@ravensjt
Refugees are not who I am talking about.  I don't think people fleeing oppression are coming here buying up store fronts, houses, restaurants and commercial buildings.

I'm talking about people that are somewhat well off moving to the country without learning a lick of the language.  Try moving to French Canada and not learning any French and see how they treat you.  

I am all about helping the oppressed as long as they are actually oppressed, but I am not about giving entry to people from other countries because they couldn't make enough money to survive on their own accord.
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ethang5
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@ravensjt
Now your moving the goalpost bro America isnt spending money on things people dont want, thats what elections are for. 
Moving them to where? If we took a vote, the overwhelming majority of Americans would be for helping Americans first.

It is your Right to spend your money as you see fit, but that doesnt mean that you aren't wasting it by spending it in illogical ways
If the owner is spending it how he sees fit, it matters only that its logical to him. No one else can tell him how to spend his earnings.

Undocumented immigrants contribute significantly to state and local taxes,...
They are called illegal for a reason. They should not be here.

And they commit  less crime than native born citizens
So what? They are illegally here. A single crime is too much. Don't tell me a person who broke into my house causes less trouble than my kid. The trespasser should not be in my house at all. Any trouble he causes is trouble I didn't need.

It's completely relevant if your premise is that America has achieved it's greatness off of the merits you listed previously while ignoring that we have also profited off of exploitation of many foreign Nations which you choose to ignore.
You seem to be one of those liberals who thinks America owes something to some other countries. Bolderdash. America owes them nothing. It is not relevant. Our money is our money, and it should be used on us first.

Do you pay taxes?
Yes I do. To an American government to be used for the betterment of Americans, not foreigners. Taxation isn't socialism.

That makes no sense Bro. We don't import to help Non-Americans
We import because our past useless governments thought sacrificing American jobs to placate foreigners was a sound policy. america can be self sufficient. It makes perfect sense.

So your against trade also? 
How is trade supposed to be giving money away. We pay for the things we get from trading, it isn't that our trade partners are entitled to our money. America has no obligation to take in, house, or support anyone but Americans. Anything else is charity, not obligation.

homelessness in America, It has nothing to do with what we are talking about 
Many of the homeless are either illegals, or have been dragged down by illegals sucking the life out of their communities.

homelessness is caused by things outside of immigration
Untrue. Many illegals squat in huge homeless slums, spreading poverty and disease. Homelessness and illegal immigration are intricately linked.

One thing I agree with Trump on is bringing more jobs back to America as to that would help the homelessness problem
He's right on more than just that, as our economy is indicating.

Fixing the homeless situation has never been a priority in America
True, because the money to fix the problem has always been given to foreigners instead of Americans. Trump is going to take a look at that too.
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@DBlaze
Refugees are not who I am talking about.  I don't think people fleeing oppression are coming here buying up store fronts, houses, restaurants and commercial buildings.

I'm talking about people that are somewhat well off moving to the country without learning a lick of the language.  Try moving to French Canada and not learning any French and see how they treat you.  

I am all about helping the oppressed as long as they are actually oppressed, but I am not about giving entry to people from other countries because they couldn't make enough money to survive on their own accord.


I understand your point, do you hold the same opinion for Americans who expand their businesses overseas? Not many of us (Americans) have taken the time to learn Arabic or Chinese or Japanese either don't you think?

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DBlaze
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@ravensjt
Try moving to Mexico/ El Salvador/ Ecuador without knowing any Spanish, even knowing the basics is not enough.  I've been to those countries traveling with people fluent in Spanish, and was not allowed to leave the dwelling by myself, and for good reason, and these were far from bad neighborhoods... When I did leave with them, I saw why I shouldn't go out.  You want to feel like you don't belong?  Go to one of those countries without knowing the native language..... 

The funny thing is, the only place I felt comfortable was Costco, because it looks exactly the same and so did the customers.

I want America to be different from those countries, but I also don't want us to be taken advantage of because we are so accepting.  That seems to be what is happening.  
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@ethang5
I know right? This is going on Right At The Border...America can't handle the infrastructure scarcity for the hordes of people flooding over. Infrastructure takes decades to develop. Some of the homeless here are even Americans! Why can't we help Americans first California?
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ravensjt
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@ethang5
Moving them to where? If we took a vote, the overwhelming majority of Americans would be for helping Americans first.
If the question was loaded like your saying it then yes...... Take the same vote and ask:

" Do you think that Americans should give no money to any foreign entities for charity, trade or any other reason"?

I bet you'd get a different result

If the owner is spending it how he sees fit, it matters only that its logical to him. No one else can tell him how to spend his earnings.
I've never denied that, but if said owner then complains about not being able to take care of his family and his frivolous unresponsible spending is brought to light, he only has himself to blame


They are called illegal for a reason. They should not be here.
Your complaint was that they drain the economy when I said that they boost it....this is an example of moving the goalposts that I mentioned earlier

You seem to be one of those liberals who thinks America owes something to some other countries. Bolderdash. America owes them nothing. It is not relevant. Our money is our money, and it should be used on us first.
Be better than that Ethang, I don't represent any political affiliation outside of myself. Address what I say and not what you mistakenly believe is my intent (which you didn't address btw)


Any system where you pretend the earnings of profitable people are the property of everyone is socialism. Call it whatever you want. A rose by another name is still a rose.
What you said before^^^

Yes I do. To an American government to be used for the betterment of Americans, not foreigners. Taxation isn't socialism.
What you say now ^^^^

Besides the cognitive dissonance displayed in those two statements, you do realize that roughly 10% of your taxes goes to foreign aid right?

We import because our past useless governments thought sacrificing American jobs to placate foreigners was a sound policy. america can be self sufficient. It makes perfect sense.
America probably could with sacrifices.. Do you think (or are you) Americans would be willing to make those sacrifices to be "America First and Only"?

 Many of the homeless are either illegals, or have been dragged down by illegals sucking the life out of their communities.
simply not true nor backed by statistics, I quoted to you (in a seperate post) the main reasons for homelessness 

True, because the money to fix the problem has always been given to foreigners instead of Americans. Trump is going to take a look at that too.
And giving to foreigners via trade, made your lifestyle possible today Bro





#29
DBlaze
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@ravensjt
There is a difference between expanding your business, and moving to another country to buy/open a business.  I don't think it would be possible for an American to move to any of those countries, purchase a small business and run it effectively without knowing the native language.  You would have to hire someone to run it for you which would not be profitable if you are there as well.  Why would anyone do that anyway?

You might invest in a company, or purchase it, but not move there because you would have other ventures here in America, which might give you a bit more disposable income, but you couldn't spend all your time on it.   That being said, most people purchasing/starting small businesses want to run it themselves because it is costly to start a business, and turning a profit doesn't usually happen for years down the road.  That is why you will see owners doing a lot of the crap work that you would think they would hire someone for.  


The only way it would be feasible is if there was a segregated area for Americans in said countries, which there isn't, but there is in the US, and they are building..I don't know about you but I don't want thousands of Chinatowns, 1 or 2 is fine.  (just an example)

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ravensjt
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@DBlaze
Try moving to Mexico/ El Salvador/ Ecuador without knowing any Spanish, even knowing the basics is not enough.  I've been to those countries traveling with people fluent in Spanish, and was not allowed to leave the dwelling by myself, and for good reason, and these were far from bad neighborhoods... When I did leave with them, I saw why I shouldn't go out.  You want to feel like you don't belong?  Go to one of those countries without knowing the native language..... 

The funny thing is, the only place I felt comfortable was Costco, because it looks exactly the same and so did the customers.

I want America to be different from those countries, but I also don't want us to be taken advantage of because we are so accepting.  That seems to be what is happening.

I've lived in two Countries (albeit for 2 and 3yrs only) and not known the full language. It was uncomfortable and frustrating for all involved (admittedly) 

Guess you'd have to give me examples of America being taken advantage of because of a language barrier