Has he been outed?

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 133
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Isn't the problem with this that Biden is the most likely candidate to face to Trump and looks good in swing states? Looking at the data I don't think there is anyone else in the democratic that could beat Trump. 

So, they only have a problem with Trump looking into him because he is the best candidate to beat Trump?

I would say you are missing a more important question. Is it in Trump's interest to prevent Biden from being a the democratic nominee in order to secure another term? 
Why would that be the more important question? If Biden is a super corrupt guy who will likely conduct many corrupt acts as president, shouldn't the American people be informed that he is corrupt? Maybe they don't want to vote for someone like that.

Nothing is above politics unless both parties agree until one of the parties decide to change things. 

Since everything is about politics, we get nothing done. Trump undoing everything Obama did because he was a Democrat. The Democrats are opposing things they have historically supported because they hate Trump. How do things need to be changed?
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@HistoryBuff
If that was what Trump actually cared about, there are mechanism to to do that. He could have referred it to the FBI or to congress. That would be the lawful way to investigate such claims. Shaking down a foreign country to get them to announce they are investigating is not the lawful way of getting an investigation. That is how you smear a political opponent. Trump never cared if Biden was corrupt or not. He just cared about spreading doubt that he might be corrupt so he could use that in an election.

Which is, of course, a crime. 
I don't know that that is a crime. Either way, I want to know when politicians are corrupt rather than being blissfully unaware. While I would like to think that the FBI would be capable of such an investigation, I have seen nothing but anti-Trump blatant partisanship going on with them. Look at Hillary destroying thousands of emails! She didn't get in trouble for THAT? So, I highly doubt that they would actually investigate a Democrat that they think can beat orange man. 

bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@HistoryBuff
If that was what Trump actually cared about, there are mechanism to to do that. He could have referred it to the FBI or to congress. That would be the lawful way to investigate such claims. Shaking down a foreign country to get them to announce they are investigating is not the lawful way of getting an investigation. That is how you smear a political opponent. Trump never cared if Biden was corrupt or not. He just cared about spreading doubt that he might be corrupt so he could use that in an election.

Which is, of course, a crime. 
I don't know that that is a crime. Either way, I want to know when politicians are corrupt rather than being blissfully unaware. While I would like to think that the FBI would be capable of such an investigation, I have seen nothing but anti-Trump blatant partisanship going on with them. Look at Hillary destroying thousands of emails! She didn't get in trouble for THAT? So, I highly doubt that they would actually investigate a Democrat that they think can beat orange man. 

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
show me where they were obligated legally to tell anyone they were delaying it.
You are really not getting it. I am laying out the mens rea argument. IE, the evidence that they knew what they were doing was wrong. The actus reus is a different point. Them hiding what they were doing wasn't, in and of itself, a crime. The hiding of the evidence shows that they were cognizant that they had, and were continuing to commit, a crime. And they therefore took steps to prevent people from finding out. 

so couldn't the devil's advocate say that once they were informed it was wrong they corrected it, thus it wasn't an intentional crime but rather a mistake?

But they didn't. The aid was blocked for months while multiple people lodged objections. The funding was blocked on July 3rd. The call with Zelenksy was July 25th. Multiple people reported they had issues with the call and the aid being blocked. The formal whistle blower complaint was august 12th. It hit the news august 28th. The official investigation began on September 9th. The aid was released on september 11th. 

So they blocked the aid for 2 months while receiving multiple complaints. They only released it after a news article came out and an official investigation began. If it was a mistake, it would never have gotten to a whistle blower complaint. The reason it did was because they were continuing to block it after being told repeatedly it was wrong. 

the same reason there as hundreds of videos which instruct you to plead the 5th and never talk to police w/o a lawyer, nothing good can come of it
that is when you are talking to police. They lied and hid info from their own staff. Their own diplomats and members of government had no idea the aid money was being blocked. And when they found out, the white house wouldn't tell them the reason. The only reason that this situation is similar is that example is that trump was blocking the aid to commit a crime. If it was normal diplomatic procedure, the state department would have known why it was being blocked.

irrelevant, in the U.S. you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, thinking, inferring, assuming etc is not proof.
We already have the proof. This is just to establish that they knew they were committing the crime. 

1) asking a foreign national for a thing of value to help you in a campaign is a crime. so when trump asked for dirt on biden, by name, on that call he committed a crime. We have known this since the transcript was released. 

2) using the power of your public office for personal gain. Trump used the power of the presidency, by withholding aid and dangling a state visit, in order to personally profit himself by getting dirt on a political rival. We already know he blocked the aid and dangled the state visit. We know the ukranians planned to give him the dirt he wanted. We already know he committed this crime as well. 

3) trump has committed obstruction of justice and witness tampering during the impeachment. By ordering witnesses not to testify, refusing to provide documents and threatening witnesses he has committed some new crimes during his attempted cover up. so we already know he has committed these too. 
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@bmdrocks21
I don't know that that is a crime. Either way, I want to know when politicians are corrupt rather than being blissfully unaware.
Not sending something to be investigated isn't a crime. Extorting a foreign country to get dirt on a political rival most certainly is a crime. The fact that they used unofficial communication channels (via giulliani), hid the transcript, refused to tell anyone why the aid was blocked, etc all show that they were hiding what they were doing. That is evidence of mens rea. They knew they were committing crimes. And even if trump didn't initially, the white house council and bolton certainly did. There is no excuse for continuing to commit the crime for several months. The aid was blocked in early july. the aid was only released after the investigation began in september. If they were ignorant they would have stopped when the complaints began. They continued because they thought they would get away with it, which they almost did.

 While I would like to think that the FBI would be capable of such an investigation, I have seen nothing but anti-Trump blatant partisanship going on with them. Look at Hillary destroying thousands of emails! She didn't get in trouble for THAT? So, I highly doubt that they would actually investigate a Democrat that they think can beat orange man. 
Even if I accepted your premise, it is still a ridiculous argument. You are essentially saying that he didn't think the FBI would do their job, so he decided to commit several crimes to investigate a potential crime. It doesn't really make sense and it wouldn't absolve him of any guilt for the multiple crimes he committed. 
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
based on what I read, the crimes are not defined and is up to Congress to do that, which hasn't happened yet, they set those conditions, vote on it then goes to the Senate which is where it will most likely die and or chief justice.

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
based on what I read, the crimes are not defined and is up to Congress to do that, which hasn't happened yet, they set those conditions, vote on it then goes to the Senate which is where it will most likely die and or chief justice.
Here is an article showing that is a crime to ask for dirt on a political rival from a foreign national

If a public official solicits something of value and uses their public office to get it, that is breach of public trust and is legally prosecutable as bribery. 

Witness tampering and obstruction of justice are also very clearly defined crimes. 

These are all crimes there is considerable evidence for. The next steps will be laying out the articles of impeachment in congress. impeaching trump in congress. Then the trial in the senate. If trumpists continue to single mindedly ignore reality and blindly follow trump, then the senate will likely acquit him to protect their own asses. But that doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime, and that doesn't prevent law enforcement from charging him once he stops being protected by the office of the presidency. 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Here is an article showing that is a crime to ask for dirt on a political rival from a foreign national.

If this is actually the case, every politician that ever gossiped with a foreign national should be burned at the stake.
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
ahhh ok  it looks like Trump has violated federal campaign finance laws.  (maybe)
From the Mueller report
to establish a criminal campaign-finance violation, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant acted “knowingly and willfully”—i.e., that the defendant knew generally that his conduct was unlawful. Yes, this peculiar area of election law allows defendants to escape liability for ignorance of the law.
And Mueller concluded he lacked evidence likely to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump campaign officials acted with knowledge that their conduct was illegal.

that's from your link btw you probably read the rest anyway

this has some good stuff imo

I don't believe and am not convinced it is as black and white as you seem to think it is.

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
If this is actually the case, every politician that ever gossiped with a foreign national should be burned at the stake.
If they were chatting over drinks, no one cares. If they went to them and said I want you to do me a favor and smear a political rival of mine, absolutely they should be arrested. Trump didn't just want dirt on Biden, he wanted the president of Ukraine to go on television and publicly announce that he was investigating Biden. That is WAY over the line of gossiping and well into criminality. 


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@bmdrocks21
I don't see why people have issues with Trump asking about Biden. If they find out that Biden has done very corrupt things(which he has), isn't it in the interest of the American people to know about that corruption? Shouldn't it be a secondary concern that they are political rivals?
Trump shouldn't be investigated unless there is INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of a crime.

Where's the proof?

Biden shouldn't be investigated unless there is INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of a crime.

Where's the proof?

It's called: Uniform-Standards-of-Evidence.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
...that the defendant knew generally that his conduct was unlawful.
Oh, the dumb-dumb defense.

But I thought Trump was a Very-Stable-Genius?
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@3RU7AL
So, then you would agree that there should have been no investigation of Russia collusion with Trump, yes? There was no evidence of that.

On the other hand, there was evidence of Biden having a prosecutor in Ukraine fired because he was looking into Hunter Biden. Seems like there is enough evidence to take a look into that.

TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
I didn't say it, Mueller did, remember how wonderful everyone said he was until his findings came out and they turned on him?  Yeah, that guy.
Trump as a certain level of skill at being crafty.  Having done what he has over his life you'd learn how to be even by accident.  Call it shrewd, whatever, he knows how to game the system to a certain degree.  Walking and blurring the line is just business.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
While I would like to think that the FBI would be capable of such an investigation, I have seen nothing but anti-Trump blatant partisanship going on with them. Look at Hillary destroying thousands of emails! She didn't get in trouble for THAT? So, I highly doubt that they would actually investigate a Democrat that they think can beat orange man. 
Even if I accepted your premise, it is still a ridiculous argument. You are essentially saying that he didn't think the FBI would do their job, so he decided to commit several crimes to investigate a potential crime. It doesn't really make sense and it wouldn't absolve him of any guilt for the multiple crimes he committed. 
Well stated.
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
The fact that they used unofficial communication channels (via giulliani), hid the transcript, refused to tell anyone why the aid was blocked, etc all show that they were hiding what they were doing. That is evidence of mens rea. They knew they were committing crimes. 
this kind of jumped out at me after the fact, do you see any similarities to what you wrote there with Hillary Clinton's server, deleting emails and destroying the blackberry phones which were government property/issued?  Because otherwise that sure would be hypocritical.


TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@bmdrocks21
So, they only have a problem with Trump looking into him because he is the best candidate to beat Trump?
I don't know who "they" are but I would say either intentionally or unintentionally Trump is pretty much ruining the only chance the democrats have to win using the information we have now. It can change during that time. 
Why would that be the more important question?
If Trump is able to do this what else can't he do? If he is able to get away with investigating a potential president as the president himself seems pretty f*cky. 
If Biden is a super corrupt guy who will likely conduct many corrupt acts as president, shouldn't the American people be informed that he is corrupt?
Sure.
Maybe they don't want to vote for someone like that.
Don't you see how this helps Trump?
How do things need to be changed?
Dictatorship or monarchy. I guess if you want to remove the two party system.

With the two party system in mind, I doubt things would change. Trump has shown current Republican politicians will follow him and Democrats seem to have division. Republicans might have division but the politicians don't really seem divided.

The best thing Democrats have are liberals as in center left to left voters. It would be a lost cause if the majority of them were socialists. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@bmdrocks21
So, then you would agree that there should have been no investigation of Russia collusion with Trump, yes? There was no evidence of that.
Correct.  According to the proposed "no investigation without being caught red-handed" standard.

On the other hand, there was evidence of Biden having a prosecutor in Ukraine fired because he was looking into Hunter Biden.
Based on what exactly?  Certainly the prosecutor was fired, but they were widely regarded as corrupt.

Seems like there is enough evidence to take a look into that.
Is there INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of a crime?
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@3RU7AL
I mean, Biden said during an interview that he forced Ukrainian leaders to fire the prosecutor who was investigating his son. His son was getting large payments for serving on the board of a company. This company was a gas company that he had no expertise in and doesn't even speak Ukranian. This big 'ol conflict of interest and use of leverage against another nation is worth looking into.

Democrats were saying that there was undeniable proof of collusion from the beginning for Trump. We never found that proof after years of investigation because it was all started on hearsay and lies. The Biden corruption scandal actually has video proof of Biden admitting to the act. 

These two are not the same.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Impeachment is inherently a political process. Precedent from previous impeachment inquiries has not been followed. It’s a one sided investigation that has lost support among Americans. Democrats from safe districts are breaking with Schiff and Pelosi. If they do impeach, they know once it gets to the Senate, Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham will subpoena the whistleblower, Adam Schiff, Joe Biden, and Hunter Biden. All of this coming right before the IG Report on FISA Abuse that started the Russian Hoax.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
started on hearsay and lies.
Illegally started. FISA Abuse

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@bmdrocks21
I mean, Biden said during an interview that he forced Ukrainian leaders to fire the prosecutor...
Yes, I saw this part,

...who was investigating his son.
Please show me this part.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ILikePie5
started on hearsay and lies.
Illegally started. FISA Abuse
Which law was violated?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
1) they refused to tell anyone why the aid was blocked and didn't tell anyone in congress about it at all
Not technically illegal.

2) trump channeled as much as possible through Giuliani, his personal attorney who had no official connection to the government, and not a member of the state department
Not technically illegal.

3) the white house attorney, after receiving complaints about the call, put the transcript in a highly restricted computer (which is not a normal practice) 
Not technically illegal.

These all show aspects of a guilty mind.
Dime-store-psychoanalysis also known as the-mind-reader-fallacy.

Not telling anyone what they were doing, funneling the conversation away from official channels and into an unofficial one and hiding the transcript after the fact are all evidence that they knew what they were doing was wrong and didn't want anyone to find out about it. 
Not necessarily.  It could be gross-incompetence.  Or sheer-genius.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Misleading the court to spy on a political opponent by using the Christopher Steele Dossier which was funded by Fusion GPS and the DNC...aka Hillary Clinton spied on the Trump Campaign
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
the whistleblower is acia agent,imagine my shock!
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@3RU7AL
Okay, I was slightly off. He was investigating the company that Hunter Biden worked at, not specifically his son. That would have led to some concerning findings if he dug too deep.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
...in the U.S. you are innocent until PROVEN guilty, thinking, inferring, assuming etc is not proof.
This isn't even slightly true.  If suspects were presumed-innocent, they would be free to roam the streets until their court dates.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ILikePie5
Misleading the court to spy on a political opponent by using the Christopher Steele Dossier which was funded by Fusion GPS and the DNC...aka Hillary Clinton spied on the Trump Campaign
There is no law that stipulates the "probable cause" that leads to an investigation must be 100% true.

The evidence is presented to the FISA court, and the court decides if that evidence is actionable.

Otherwise, every nosey-neighbor who reported suspicious activity to the cops that turned out to be unverifiable would be hauled off to prison.
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
If suspects were presumed-innocent, they would be free to roam the streets until their court dates.
but that does happen, even without having to put up a bond/bail so I don't understand what you are talking about.  (released on recognizance)
suspicion is not proof