Why Young Christians are Leaving the Church

Author: Stronn

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Athias
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@Stronn
I see no evidence of a state-sponsored anti-religious marketing campaign in the U.S.
Where did I say it was "anti-religion"?

Religious organizations receive huge government subsidies, not the least of which is tax exemption.
What does this have to do with the information to which a child is exposed?

And the fact that 75% of people in the U.S. are Christian refutes your contention that young people are exposed more to anti-religious ideologies than religious ones.

It refutes nothing; 91% of children go to public school typically for five days a week, as opposed to the 75% you claim who typically go to church for one day a week.

Most of those young people grew up in a religious home, after all.
That can mean anything. I, too, grew up in a religious home.

Also, evolution is not an ideology any more than atomic theory is an ideology. There is nothing about evolution that inherently precludes religion.
Evolution is an ideology. It's one on-going teleological argument without a single fact as its premise. It's a series of presumptions based on assumptions (e.g. orthogenesis, and genetic traits.)
Stronn
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@Athias
 Where did I say it was "anti-religion"?
Call it non-religious then.

What does this have to do with the information to which a child is exposed?
You said the resources of the state far outweigh the resources of a single church, implying that government resources are being used to promote non-religious ideologies. The truth is, many government resource go toward promoting religion.

It refutes nothing; 91% of children go to public school typically for five days a week, as opposed to the 75% you claim who typically go to church for one day a week. 
Yes, and in those public schools they are exposed to other students, 75% of whom are Christian, and teachers, 75% of whom are Christian.

That can mean anything. I, too, grew up in a religious home. 
It means that the first, most formative years of children's lives are spent being exposed to religion. 

Evolution is an ideology. It's one on-going teleological argument without a single fact as its premise. It's a series of presumptions based on assumptions (e.g. orthogenesis, and genetic traits.) 
This is astonishingly ignorant. Not one single fact, really? No fossils, or DNA, or morphological similarity, or vestigal organs, or shared genes? None of these are facts? Genetic traits are an assumption??? I guess the fact that some people have blue eyes and children tend to look like their parents are just assumptions. And orthogenesis, really? It is not even part of mainstream evolutionary theory.

Scientific theories are not ideologies, but with such profound ignorance, it is not surprising that you think so.



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@Athias
Evolution is an ideology.
Evolution might be described as a hypothesis or a theory, but it most certainly does not qualify as an "ideology".

Please present your preferred definition of "ideology".

It's one on-going teleological argument without a single fact as its premise.
Evolution is the exact opposite of a teleological argument.  Survival is not a "goal" it is merely a consequence.

And can you please outline what you describe as the "factless premise" of evolution?

It's a series of presumptions based on assumptions (e.g. orthogenesis, and genetic traits.) 
ORTHOGENESIS : noun Biology The hypothesis, now largely discredited, that the evolution of species is linear and driven largely by internal factors rather than by natural selection. [LINK]

Evolution is a framework of efficacious, testable predictions based on systematic scientific observations.
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@3RU7AL
An interesting and concise rebuttal, Brutal. Let me counter by saying:

Nuh-uh. 

In your FACE. 

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I am fairly convinced that sexual immorality is the main reason youngsters leaving the church. That and a very overbearing culture of moral relativity, pride in the self, and entitlement.


Pride. Thats really it. Pride. I have yet to meet anyone who said otherwise who did not simply reinforce this in my mind.


Part of me also kind of wants to blame the confusion caused by so many heretical forms of Christianity that are allowed to flourish in The United States. This confuses both non-Christian and Christian alike.


Orthodox Christianity is a pretty small minority in the states. We had a late start. We're growing an awful lot though, especially from converts. I hope as we become more visible Christianity in this country will become more Orthodox.





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@Mopac
Yep. ANother main reason is just a lack of knowledge of the faith/Church.  A child who isn't taught math properly will grow up with a mal-formed ability to do math.  Likewise with faith.

BTW, by the look of your username, you must be a fellow Austinite.


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@GuitarSlinger
Keepin it weird
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@Mopac
Define sexual immorality.
Mopac
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@disgusted
Making sex an idol before God.

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@Mopac
Define sexual immorality.
Your nonsensical drivel means nothing, your god is a fantasy.

Making sex an idol before God.
What does that mean in HUMAN?

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@disgusted
It basically means putting "Sex" above all other things.  Making "sex" your idol or God.  
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@GuitarSlinger
Whose definition of morality is that? lol
Athias
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@Stronn
@3RU7AL
You said the resources of the state far outweigh the resources of a single church, implying that government resources are being used to promote non-religious ideologies. The truth is, many government resource go toward promoting religion.
More so than non-religious ideologies?


Yes, and in those public schools they are exposed to other students, 75% of whom are Christian, and teachers, 75% of whom are Christian.

What does that have to do with anything? First, we are discussing exposure to information, not to people who's religious affiliation may or may not be made explicit. Do these children conduct daily sermons at school? No? Then your argument is irrelevant.

It means that the first, most formative years of children's lives are spent being exposed to religion. 
Let's apply a simple calculus: the first eight years of a child's life are its formative years. Let's say it's exposed to religious information once a week as is typical. That means that over its first eight years, that child is exposed to religious information during 416 days of his or her life. Now let's be generous and presume that children typically begin state-sponsored schooling at the age of five for five days a week. That means over the first eight years of that child's life, he or she spends 780 days exposed to state sponsored ideologies, much of which occurs over a three-year span.

This is astonishingly ignorant. Not one single fact, really? No fossils, or DNA, or morphological similarity, or vestigal organs, or shared genes? None of these are facts? Genetic traits are an assumption??? I guess the fact that some people have blue eyes and children tend to look like their parents are just assumptions.
What fact about evolution do fossils, DNA, Vestigal Organs, or shared genes inform?


Evolution might be described as a hypothesis or a theory, but it most certainly does not qualify as an "ideology".

Please present your preferred definition of "ideology".
My definition does not matter since your argument has already operated on one which you've already selected, or is there are reason you quoted, "ideology"?

Evolution is the exact opposite of a teleological argument.  Survival is not a "goal" it is merely a consequence.
No it isn't. Natural selection was a response to the criticisms of teleology in evolutionary thought, which was based on orthogenesis. And perhaps you mean to say, "Survival is a statement," since consequence would still imply a goal.


ORTHOGENESIS : noun Biology The hypothesis, now largely discredited, that the evolution of species is linear and driven largely by internal factors rather than by natural selection. [LINK]

Evolution is a framework of efficacious, testable predictions based on systematic scientific observations.


The discredit of orthogenesis was done through consensus in an effort to assimilate to naturalist ideology, not any scientific rigor. Natural selection is no more substantive than orthogenesis. The only real difference is that more scientists agree with the naturalist ideology. Factual verification favors neither. And that brings us to your description of evolution, which is just another way of stating that you're making provisional statements of fact based on that which you assume you know about your environment.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
Please present your preferred definition of "ideology".
My definition does not matter since your argument has already operated on one which you've already selected, or is there are reason you quoted, "ideology"?
Your definition is of critical importance if we want to communicate with each other.

...since consequence would still imply a goal. 
Consequences are inevitable regardless of intentionality.  Water does not have a "goal" of flowing downhill.  Survival is a consequence of "not dying".

Natural selection is no more substantive than orthogenesis. The only real difference is that more scientists agree with the naturalist ideology. Factual verification favors neither.
Ok, hold up.  If you're in the "intelligent designer" camp, I'm 100% Deist, so we should be able to figure this out.

And that brings us to your description of evolution, which is just another way of stating that you're making provisional statements of fact based on that which you assume you know about your environment. 
The theory of evolution has led us to discover genetics and we have been selectively breeding plants and animals for desirable traits (intuitively) even before that.

This is called "efficacy".  If a theory provides testable predictive power and efficacy, then it is considered a valid theory.  And, all scientific discoveries and theories are technically "provisional" (which is a feature, not a bug).
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@Athias
More so than non-religious ideologies?
You seem to be conflating "non-religious" with "anti-religious".

Many public schools are packed with 75% to 99% christian students and teachers.

These students and teachers are free to talk about and act according to their personal religious beliefs and set social norms.

Such a school would be difficult to describe as "non-religious" but instead of being "pro-religious" I'd say it's probably more accurately described as "pro-christian", since christians are not generally "pro-religious" in any broad or general sense.
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@Athias
Let's apply a simple calculus: the first eight years of a child's life are its formative years. Let's say it's exposed to religious information once a week as is typical.

You are either ignorant or lying about exposure to religion that a child experiences in a religious household
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@Mopac
I am fairly convinced that I am fairly convinced that sexual immorality is the main reason youngsters leaving the church.
Really?  It's not even mentioned in report.   So what convinces you, given the only hard evidence is that sexual immorality is not the main reason youngsters leaving the church?

That's one difference between religious types and science types... the religious put their personal opinion ahead of facts but for the scientific the facts trump mere opinion.


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@disgusted
Your definition is of critical importance if we want to communicate with each other.
Obviously it isn't, otherwise you wouldn't have asserted this, "Evolution might be described as a hypothesis or a theory, but it most certainly does not qualify as an 'ideology'" before the fact. You're arguing either all definitions of "ideology" do not fit my description, or one which you've selected in particular is operant in this discussion. (Yes, I'm busting your chops over this because it's futile to seek definition when you've already presumed one.)


Consequences are inevitable regardless of intentionality.  Water does not have a "goal" of flowing downhill.  Survival is a consequence of "not dying".
Water's flowing down hill is a phenomenon, not a consequence. Consequence implies action; action implies agency. Even your statement "survival is a consequence of 'not dying'" implies a goal since it can be written as "to survive is to not die." To not die is the end of the effort to survive. Now if you're stating survival=not dying, that's another thing. But relating the two by incorporating the concept of consequence is counterintuitive.

Ok, hold up.  If you're in the "intelligent designer" camp, I'm 100% Deist, so we should be able to figure this out.
I take no position. I merely observe. Philosophically, I lean toward subjective idealism.

The theory of evolution has led us to discover genetics and we have been selectively breeding plants and animals for desirable traits (intuitively) even before that.
Then the theory of evolution has led to what per se, since as you correctly assessed plants and animals have been bred long before modern consensus of evolutionary thought? And which discoveries of genetics inform Evolution?

This is called "efficacy". 
You call it "efficacy."

If a theory provides testable predictive power and efficacy, then it is considered a valid theory.
Or it's nothing more than a gambler's fallacy.

And, all scientific discoveries and theories are technically "provisional" (which is a feature, not a bug).
All the more reason that believing in Evolution is no more "rational" than believing in god or gods.

You seem to be conflating "non-religious" with "anti-religious".
Seem is not an argument. And I've conflated nothing. I never once incorporated "anti-religious" into my statements. And my use of non-religious was intended to mirror Stronn's. Though I should have placed that in quotes. My bad.

Many public schools are packed with 75% to 99% christian students and teachers.
Once again, what does this have to do with the information to which children are exposed? Out of the 75 to 99% Christian students and teachers you claim exist, how many of them make their Christianity explicitly known? Do each where a cross? Or a shirt which states I'm Christian?


These students and teachers are free to talk about and act according to their personal religious beliefs and set social norms.
Teachers are actually not free to talk about their personal religious beliefs. Any discussion of religion in their capacity as teachers must follow state guidelines. In other words, it must be an "objective" account, rather than personal.


Such a school would be difficult to describe as "non-religious" but instead of being "pro-religious" I'd say it's probably more accurately described as "pro-christian", since christians are not generally "pro-religious" in any broad or general sense.

I'm speaking to function. I'm not denying that there are Christians at schools, and that they may or may not discuss their beliefs. However, the extent to which this occurs is not explicit; I can say with certainty that information about Evolution being taught to students is explicit because it's part of the school curricula. Even if 99% of the attendees are Christian, it's just as possible that only two people talk about religion as it would be with the entire school. It's conjectural. Evolution being taught at school is a fact.

You are either ignorant or lying about exposure to religion that a child experiences in a religious household
Where have I lied or demonstrated ignorance?
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@Athias
Can you describe what you consider the word "theory" means in the context of scientific language?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
Your definition is of critical importance if we want to communicate with each other.
Obviously it isn't, otherwise you wouldn't have asserted this, "Evolution might be described as a hypothesis or a theory, but it most certainly does not qualify as an 'ideology'" before the fact. You're arguing either all definitions of "ideology" do not fit my description, or one which you've selected in particular is operant in this discussion. (Yes, I'm busting your chops over this because it's futile to seek definition when you've already presumed one.) 
I'm not aware of any definitions of "evolution" and "ideology" that are logically compatible.  However, I am willing to entertain your preferred definitions if you're willing to present them.

Evolution is merely a scientific theory.  It is not a set of doctrines or ideals that people aspire to.  It is not a social group that people identify themselves by.

If you disagree, just let me know how you match up (or redefine) these terms.
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@Athias
Consequences are inevitable regardless of intentionality.  Water does not have a "goal" of flowing downhill.  Survival is a consequence of "not dying".
Water's flowing down hill is a phenomenon, not a consequence. Consequence implies action; action implies agency. Even your statement "survival is a consequence of 'not dying'" implies a goal since it can be written as "to survive is to not die." To not die is the end of the effort to survive. Now if you're stating survival=not dying, that's another thing. But relating the two by incorporating the concept of consequence is counterintuitive. 
So according to your glossary, it would seem, "survival is a phenomenon associated with not dying".  It is not a "goal" and doesn't need to be.  Survival and reproduction are characteristics of bacteria.  Bacteria have no goals.  Survival and reproduction are characteristics of plants and insects, and they also have no goals.  A rock rolls down a hill.  This does not mean that it intended to roll down the hill.  This does not mean that the rock was created in order to roll down the hill.  It just happens.  "Intentionality" is an unnecessary hypothesis when applied to non-human phenomena.  Adding "intentionality" does not explain anything better than "unintentionality" in these cases.
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@Athias
Ok, hold up.  If you're in the "intelligent designer" camp, I'm 100% Deist, so we should be able to figure this out.
I take no position. I merely observe. Philosophically, I lean toward subjective idealism. 
How exactly does "subjective idealism" conflict with "natural selection"?
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@Athias
The theory of evolution has led us to discover genetics and we have been selectively breeding plants and animals for desirable traits (intuitively) even before that.
Then the theory of evolution has led to what per se, since as you correctly assessed plants and animals have been bred long before modern consensus of evolutionary thought? And which discoveries of genetics inform Evolution?
Darwin proposed that, with the natural variations that occur in populations, any trait that is beneficial would make that individual more likely to survive and pass on the trait to the next generation. This process of natural selection could result in completely new species. Darwin did not have an explanation for how the traits could be preserved over the succeeding generations. At the time, the prevailing theory of inheritance was that the traits of the parents were blended in the offspring. But this would mean that any beneficial trait would be diluted out of the population within a few generations. This is because most of the blending over the next generations would be with individuals that did not have the trait.

A Roman Catholic monk from Moravia, Gregor Mendel, had the answer to Darwin's problem. Traits were not blended, but inherited whole. Modern Neo-Darwinism combines both Darwin's and Mendel's work. [LINK]
Stronn
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@Athias
More so than non-religious ideologies?
No idea. But so far your only example of a non-religious ideology has been evolution, which is not an ideology. 

What does that have to do with anything? First, we are discussing exposure to information, not to people who's religious affiliation may or may not be made explicit. Do these children conduct daily sermons at school? No? Then your argument is irrelevant. 
It is not irrelevant at all. You seem to have a conception of public schools as places where kids sit like drones all day being force-fed information. It's not that way at all. In fact, I would argue that kids take in more information from their peers than they do from teachers.

Let's apply a simple calculus: the first eight years of a child's life are its formative years. Let's say it's exposed to religious information once a week as is typical. That means that over its first eight years, that child is exposed to religious information during 416 days of his or her life. Now let's be generous and presume that children typically begin state-sponsored schooling at the age of five for five days a week. That means over the first eight years of that child's life, he or she spends 780 days exposed to state sponsored ideologies, much of which occurs over a three-year span. 
This is so overly simplistic as to be useless. For one thing, it assumes religious families only get a dose of religious information once a week when they go to church. For another, it assume kids get no exposure whatsoever to religion on days they go to school. Both are ridiculous assumptions and render the entire exercise moot.

What fact about evolution do fossils, DNA, Vestigal Organs, or shared genes inform? 
Species change over time. Traits are inherited. Species have common ancestors.


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@Athias
If a theory provides testable predictive power and efficacy, then it is considered a valid theory.
Or it's nothing more than a gambler's fallacy. 
The gambler's fallacy, also known as the Monte Carlo fallacy or the fallacy of the maturity of chances, is the mistaken belief that, if something happens more frequently than normal during a given period, it will happen less frequently in the future (or vice versa). [LINK]

Please let me know what makes you think the "gambler's fallacy" applies to or somehow countermands valid scientific theories.
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@3RU7AL
@Athias
If we're quibbling definitions, 'evolution' means 'change over time'.   Unless you believe that there has been no change in the form of any living thing since the beginning of the world you 'believe in evolution'.   My guess is athias believes in evolution!

Darwinian evolution is the consequence of the self-evident facts that variation between indiviuals a) affects their relative fitness and b) is at least  partly heritable.   Given those facts, adaptive evolution must occur - it's simple logic.  It was that incredibly obvious (in hindsight) principle Darwin and Wallace gave us. 

I think you have to be very brave to deny the validity of a and b - I wonder if  Athias is brave enough...




Stronn
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@Athias
If a theory provides testable predictive power and efficacy, then it is considered a valid theory.
Or it's nothing more than a gambler's fallacy. 
It's hard to take you seriously when you make statements like this that casually dismiss all of science.
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@Athias
And, all scientific discoveries and theories are technically "provisional" (which is a feature, not a bug).
All the more reason that believing in Evolution is no more "rational" than believing in god or gods. 
Are you suggesting that many or most religious people believe their idea of god is merely provisional?
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@3RU7AL
@disgusted
@disgusted:

Can you describe what you consider the word "theory" means in the context of scientific language?''
Yes, I can.

@3RU7AL

I'm not aware of any definitions of "evolution" and "ideology" that are logically compatible.  However, I am willing to entertain your preferred definitions if you're willing to present them.'

Evolution is merely a scientific theory.  It is not a set of doctrines or ideals that people aspire to.  It is not a social group that people identify themselves by.
I do not provide definitions for entertainment. Also, are you presuming that scientific theory and ideology are mutually exclusive?

If you disagree, just let me know how you match up (or redefine) these terms.
My acquiescence doesn't matter. It's either defined per my description or it's not. And clearly, you've already presumed a definition, so what's the point?

So according to your glossary,
I have a glossary? Funny, I haven't read it.

it would seem, "survival is a phenomenon associated with not dying". 
"Seem" once again is not an argument.

It is not a "goal" and doesn't need to be. 
Prove it.


Bacteria have no goals.
Prove it.

 Survival and reproduction are characteristics of plants and insects, and they also have no goals.
The teleological issue in the physical sciences namely biology isn't that there's "no design"; it's that design isn't verifiable. This is not the same as affirming the negative, which would be argumentum ad ignorantium. If you're going to assert that there are no "goals," then you're going to have to prove it. Natural selection attempts to do this, but not sufficiently.

  Adding "intentionality" does not explain anything better than "unintentionality".
Then explain the reason you just tried using the the latter. 
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@keithprosser
It is really easy to come to this conclusion when this seems to be a big crusade among apostates.

But yeah, bad education probably has more to do with it.