Are debates getting enough votes?

Author: DynamicSquid

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#31
Ramshutu
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@Jeff_Goldblum
Look at the head mods (virtuoso) debate record - he has a win rate that’s quite low. I’ve voted against Bsh1 (former head mod), and virtuoso and speedrace (though the later is only a recent mod). I can’t speak for my own debates (I’m a debate vote mod), but you’re free to take a look at any of my debates and the votes on them.

The best debaters on this site imo are blamonkey and Semperfortis; the latter wins most times despite picking opposing positions in different debates; Oromagi, Ragnar and myself are imo second tier debaters and don’t often debate points contrary to our personal positions (unless we are super comfortable with the resolution) - and as we’re all mostly liberal, you don’t see us bump heads often.

Finally, there is a dearth of debating conservatives on this site. Alec was #1 for a while, Dr.F and Our boat are lurking around, but to be honest the later two are let down by approaching debate as if it’s a forum argument, the most common issue on this website is people failing to tie everything they say back to the resolution and to left key underlying points un-argued : the issue with the latter point is not limited to conservatives, but a lot of people with lower win rates.

The issue is not the conservative view point; but that they often don’t justify or outline their key assumptions, whilst their opponent does. It often means that other conservatives look at their debate and, due to sharing the belief in that assumption, may come to a different conclusion: however if they aren’t outlined and justified in the debate, it’s not always reasonable to vote on it - especially if it’s challenged by one side.
#32
Discipulus_Didicit
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I have only ever voted on one debate. I spent over two hours putting together an RFD. I put more effort into that RFD than I do for most of my own debate arguments. My vote was promptly reported and removed for "Not meeting CoC guidelines for a proper RFD".

Needless to say this has discouraged me from ever voting again.
#33
LordLuke
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What did they say was the problem?
#34
Ramshutu
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you’re talking about the RFD I removed, that isn’t quite what happened. If it’s the one I’m thinking about, there was an issue with sources that I asked you to clarify in the debate comments because I didn’t want to remove it for your sources missing a key issue for the very reason you had put in the effort and I didn’t want to just remove the vote and dissuade you from voting again. I even detailed what your source point was missing and what you needed to do to correct it. 
#35
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@LordLuke
My RFD and the given reasoning for it's removal (as well as my response to said reasoning) can be found in the comments section of the debate that I voted on:


Note that at the end of my RFD I say (and this is an exact copy-paste quote) "The rest of this RFD can be found in the comments section due to character limitations." So if you want to read the entirety of the RFD including the part where I explained my reasoning for awarding the source point you will have to dig through the comments a bit.
#36
ethang5
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@Jeff_Goldblum
A couple things struck me about your reply.

First, you implied that ELOs increase once someone becomes a mod, but you did not provide evidence.
OK. You seem to be under the impression I've asked you to be a judge. The board has all the evidence. Look it up.

Second, you quoted me as saying "But can you prove this? You have certainly identified the dots, but how can you prove you are connecting them correctly?" To which you replied:

I probably could, but why would I go through the effort it would take? Especially when it would change nothing?

Well, for one, don't you want to believe true things?
I already do believe true things.

If you can't provide the evidence/data, how can you confidently hold the position you do?
You mean if I don't provide the evidence to you here.

Much of the evidence is on the leaderboard and in the debates. Anyone can look it up. But how confidently I hold the position I do is not dependant on me providing anything to you.

Also, I think you could effect change, if you went about it the right way.
You must be new to the site, and were not on DDO.

Which leads me to my third point of interest.
OK.

I'm not attacking people, the system is bad. Things will deteriorate till the problem is fixed. So I will wait. After the horse dies, someone posting "dozens" of links showing how healthy it is won't matter.

Have you proposed a solution?
I don't have to. The mods are aware of the problem and of what the solution is.

If you think there is a systemic problem, maybe there could be a systemic solution?
That would make sense.

Until you actually try to propose a change, how can you know trying is futile?
Because proposing changes to people with no oversight and total power hardly ever brings change.

Change has been proposed multiple times, see the posts by Ram? Basically he say conservatives lose because they make weaker arguments, but he is the liberal who determines that! They make weaker arguments because they lose the votes, and they lose the votes because they make wreaking arguments. It's circular.

I remain skeptical that your basic position is true, but I am convinced you believe it's true. Furthermore, I can understand why conservative members of the site would share your concerns. On that understanding alone, I would be open hearing any proposals.
Are you a mod? Are you able to affect change? Have you looked at the leaderboard? Have you strolled through debates?

If a proposal can make more members of the site feel more comfortable (without comprising the quality of the site), then I am all for it.
No proposal alone will do that. And making members feel more comfortable with a crooked voting system is worse than a crooked voting system itself.

At least one mod has openly admitted a bias against the religious, another has admitted that his bias is so strong, he refrains from voting on some issues. And all of them admit that they are all liberals.

If someone was a strongly biased liberal, and had to explain why liberal mods all had 100% win ratios, while conservatives lost all the time, would their answer be any different from the answers given here by the mods?

But as I said, we only have to wait. As they progress without consequence, they will get more and more reckless and blatant.

There is a split in the mod ranks right now, and the side that gains Mike's support will tell us whether the debate forum will shape up or get worse. We may also get further changes in the mod team.

I hope its for the better, but given our history, I am not optimistic.
#37
Ramshutu
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@ethang5
At least one mod has openly admitted a bias against the religious, another has admitted that his bias is so strong, he refrains from voting on some issues. And all of them admit that they are all liberals.

If someone was a strongly biased liberal, and had to explain why liberal mods all had 100% win ratios, while conservatives lost all the time, would their answer be any different from the answers given here by the mods?
Only one of the mods (Ragnar) has a 100% record. His most recent debate was completed before he became a mod. So the claim that the mods have 100% records is demonstrably false.

Moreover, no conservatives have 0 wins, and the highest ELO conservative topped the leaderboard at one point earlier this year (alec). So the idea that conservatives “lost all the time” is also Demonstrably false.

Despite the claims of bias, I have voted for conservative and theist positions more than any other voter on this site, with the exception of perhaps Ragnar. We’re very happy to vote for conservatives when arguments are there - which shows quite strongly that the accusations of bias are also demonstrably false.


I think the issue is that you’re incorrectly assuming that simply holding different points of view render someone incapable of being unbiased. Given your trashing of liberals, and your unwillingness to acknowledge facts, this smacks of you projecting your own personal bias against liberals onto us. Unfortunately, I don’t share your inability to be impartial on matters of politics or religion; and find it quite easy to vote against my own personal beliefs.

Given your lack of evidence, refusal to provide examples, and that you’re saying things that are demonstrably untrue - you’re doing a far better job in highlighting your own bias than you are ours.

#38
ethang5
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Only one of the mods (Ragnar) has a 100% record.
The leaderboard is not static slick. We will keep watching it.

We’re very happy to vote for conservatives when arguments are there...
Like racists are happy to hire minorities when the qualifications are there right? Who decides whether the arguments are there? Self admitted biased liberals.

From Alec's profile page.

-Proud American. 
-Pro life
-Pro easy borders
-Against minimum wage
-Pro tax free recreational weed, although the states can make their own decisions to some extent. All states should legalize weed for medical use.
-Any peaceful person should be allowed any gun they want.
-Gays can marry. 
-Military spending should get cut in half and the money should go to NASA.
-Transgenders can use any bathroom they want.
-Income tax should get replaced with a sales tax
-No Medicare or Medicaid.
-I believe in deals between the parties.
-I want the 2 party system abolished and replaced with more ideologically consistent parties.

Alec is a libertarian not a conservative, though the difference was probably lost on you the moment you saw "Proud American".
#39
Ramshutu
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@ethang5
You said that the moderators all had 100% record. That was a lie. 

Alecs debates are almost all completely in line with core conservatives beliefs when he has taken a political stance; and he won so many he was top of the leaderboard. 

I’m not sure what your logic is here; that I thought Alec was a conservative, and that he had conservative positions - and yet I still often voted for him despite being wholly biased against conservatives? Doesn’t seem to be consistent.


Frankly, your proving my point; half your claims are demonstrably untrue, the rest simply make no sense; you’re simply irrationally biased against liberals, feeling that they cannot be impartial. Your claims say more about your own position than ours







#40
ethang5
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@Ramshutu
You said that the moderators all had 100% record. That was a lie. 
I said the mods in the clique all had 100% win ratios. It was true when I said it. The leaderboard changes, it isn't static. Sometimes it changes to avoid sunlight suddenly being splashed on it.

Alecs debates are almost all completely in line with core conservatives beliefs....
You said Alec was a conservative, that was a lie.

...and he won so many he was top of the leaderboard. 
He won so many perhaps because he wasn't a conservative, and said in his profile that he approved gay marriage. We know that was the magic formula to getting clique mods to vote in your favor.

You haven't been paying attention.

Look Ram. There is no need to argue. You think the voting system is fine? You continue. You think I'm wrong? No problem. We will come back to it when the you know what hits the fan.

Your defensiveness contradicts the ineffectiveness you assign to me.
#41
Ramshutu
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@ethang5
No mod has ever had a 100% win record.

It would be nice to see which one of these secret magic mods apparently had a 100% win rate!

Alec is a conservative; he holds conservative positions and has debates on conservative ideas. He hasn’t taken a liberal position on any debate that I’m aware of - and he won so many debates because people like me voted for him, despite him being conservative. What you’re doing is called the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

It seems facts are not relevant to your argument; so I think the actual reality of these votes speak for themselves. 

feel free to cite - literally - any example of a moderator with a 100% win rate that had it when becoming a moderator - any debate where a conservative lost despite making an objectively better argument or a debate vote that is clear unfair or biased.

Until then, you seem to be projecting your own biases and faults onto us.
#42
ethang5
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@Ramshutu
Alec is a conservative;

It seems facts are not relevant to your argument;
Lol. OK slick.

Alec does not call himself a conservative. And he is not, given his views.

My claim was that the bias went against known conservatives and theists, both positions not applicable to Alec.

I don't need to debate you. Your behavior is evidence enough. My suspicion is that the new mod team will not let you and the clique run roughshod the way you've been doing.

You will fight them of course, but the DDO  non-elites, and the Dart elites will back the new mod and the non-clique mods.

Dart will finally be fully wrested from the clawing grasp of of DDO. The new generation taking over now doesn't know the old DDO elites, and doesn't give one flying fig about how great they think they are.

Let the debate forum be free. The debate forum is no ones private bank to stack elo. You think because most people say nothing, they don't see.