I'm Pro Life: Change my Mind

Author: Our_Boat_is_Right

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#241
liahamil
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@bmdrocks21
Blood is actually shared with a fetus and they are "using" my uterus. Not having it killed, letting it die, if it is viable I say have a c-section and let whatever happens--happen. Some abortions are as simple as an injection to force the fetus to evacuate, and the others are used in extreme situations (such as threat of the mother or fetus or both dying during the process of carrying or birthing the fetus). You can't force me to give blood, or donate plasma (even though my blood is given back to me), so you shouldn't be able to force me to carry a fetus and let it use my body and take my bodily resources for 9 months.
#242
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@SirAnonymous
Do the majority of women believe that they don't have the right to bodily autonomy?
No.

#243
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@SirAnonymous
I defend the rights of the innocent, not the guilty.
Did you support the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

#244
bmdrocks21
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@liahamil
But you are not cutting it off, you are crushing its skull. That is what kills it.

So, now you admit you aren't even giving anything up. Could one conjoined twin have the other killed because they are sharing blood? Nope. But let me give a more accurate example.

First, let me ask you, why is that child alive? 99.5% of the time, it is the result of sex with consent. It is not the fault of the child that it was created, and now it should suffer the consequence of death? In what world is that fair? A fair example of events would be you punching someone in the kidney, which causes it to fail. They will die without a transplant. Should you have to give up a kidney because you created this unfortunate situation? I would say yes. 
#245
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@bmdrocks21
But you are not cutting it off, you are crushing its skull. That is what kills it.
This little conservative lie is hilarious.Give me a % of abortions in which this is the case, can you get to single digits?


#246
liahamil
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@bmdrocks21
it's not 99.5%
It doesn't matter if it is consensual anyways.
What about cases where the child would die after birth? Where the mother's life is at risk? Where they are both likely to die?
If I punch someone in the kidney, I could be held legally responsible for their medical bills and for assault, but there is no law that says I have to give them my kidney, even if you think there should be, just as there is no law that I have to give up my body for any other choices made (or not made in 5% of cases)
Conjoined twins are usually separated in utero or as soon as they are born. The only exception is conjoined heart twins where neither would survive the surgery most likely.
#247
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@disgusted
They use a variety of means. I don't think they have stats on which percent are crushed, vs sucked up, or whatever other method.

#248
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@liahamil
Your source is from 1996. With changing rates of certain crimes, this source is largely irrelevant.

This stat from 2018 shows that (101/70239) (less than .2%) were from rape. 194/70239 (or just about .3%) were from life-threatening physical concerns. https://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/docs/TrimesterByReason_2018.pdf

So, for these marginal cases, I would allow the abortion. Now, 53000/70239 (71%) were elective abortions. That means that the abortion was for reasons other than maternal health or fetal diseases. So... how about that 71%? Since you are bringing up these marginal cases, are you alluding that you are okay with preventing these elective abortions? Or are you just wasting my time with this grandstanding and trying to smear me?

I didn't say that there was a law to give up your kidney. I said there should be. If someone destroys an organ of yours and there isn't another donor(assuming you can donate your organ to them) you should be compelled to. Should someone else die because of your aggressive and reckless choices?
#249
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@bmdrocks21
So you'll lie anyway, good for you.
#250
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@bmdrocks21
You miss the entire argument, namely you have no right to interfere in any woman's body. You don't get to fetus without first ignoring her right to bodily autonomy. It's really simple, people possess a right to bodily autonomy, go from there.
#251
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@Our_Boat_is_Right
She can also decide if she wants to kill her 2 year old, according to your reasoning.
That's based on what you said.  I logically followed your reasoning.  Want to defend that, or do you concede?
Yeah, making 7 tiered logically inconsistent philosophical arguments can do that.
Perhaps you should explain to me, with reference to what I've written why it is permissible to kill a 2 year old
#252
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@bmdrocks21
Well, from my point of view, they are hurting another human being. Could you elaborate on how they aren't devoid of moral value? What moral value does a fetus have?
When left to natural processes, it will become a human being


I think they kill gays just because they are gay. I don't think they necessarily have to have engaged in any lude activity, but that could vary by country. Through mistakes, we can learn about what is good and bad. Certainly that is one way. The entire civilized world has outlawed slavery because it has learned from its mistakes. Just because some of the third-world country hasn't figured that out yet doesn't make them correct in what they do.
Which is your subjective judgement but is not an objective judgement. There are a great many benefits to slavery which make it subjectively good (which is why it has been so prevalent in history even today) but I wouldn't say that this judgement is objective either


It would be more like having a very very tiny apple. They are human, they don't become a human. Just because they aren't a fully developed(or ripened) apple, doesn't mean that they aren't an apple. A braindead person would be a rotten apple in this case. It has become corrupted in some fashion that prevents it from ever being an edible apple again. You are advocating destroying an apple instead of letting it reach its full, juicy, and delicious potential. Fun analogy :P
We already have a name for a very very tiny apple. It's called a seed. Which is not equivalent to an apple but may become an apple with sufficient care. They aren't equivalent to an apple and in fact have less value than an apple because of the level of care and time required for them to become an apple. I am advocating for the destruction of the seed, because it's not worth the time and effort needed to turn it into an apple and because by planting it, it will adversely effect the ecosystem around it
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#253
Our_Boat_is_Right
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@disgusted
They literally crush the skull in almost every abortion.  First, they grasp each limb and pull them off hard, one by one.  The baby can feel pain.  Then, they suck the brains of the baby out and crush the skull.  Here is a video explaining it https://youtu.be/jgw4X7Dw_3k

If only you were educated on what goes on during an abortion.  Clearly you have no idea.
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#254
Our_Boat_is_Right
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@dustryder
It's in the sense that attaining personhood is when you should apply moral considerations first, then proceed if your reasoning is sufficient.
Ok, so my infant has gained personhood.  I have applied moral considerations that it has personhood.  I can choose to kill it because it is not viable and therefore can not survive on its own.  That reasoning is sufficient, who are you to tell me that my subjective feelings of when I can kill my child are not sufficient. 

This is the reasoning that you applied to fetus's.  After 22 weeks, when it has gained personhood, the women can choose to kill it based on her own reasoning.

I am using facts for my argument.  Life starts at conception.  I'm not using subjective feelings to determine when it is ok to kill the baby.  Facts don't care about your subjective feelings.
<br>

#255
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@Our_Boat_is_Right
Ok, so my infant has gained personhood.  I have applied moral considerations that it has personhood.  I can choose to kill it because it is not viable and therefore can not survive on its own.  That reasoning is sufficient, who are you to tell me that my subjective feelings of when I can kill my child are not sufficient. 

This is the reasoning that you applied to fetus's.  After 22 weeks, when it has gained personhood, the women can choose to kill it based on her own reasoning.

You're using my words but you seem to not understand what they mean and are just mushing them together in the hopes that it makes sense. Accordingly your application of my reasoning is incorrect. Again, if you are confused by something, ask instead of rambling on and looking like a buffoon

I am using facts for my argument.  Life starts at conception.  I'm not using subjective feelings to determine when it is ok to kill the baby.  Facts don't care about your subjective feelings.
You: Life starts at conception
Me: Here's an argument as to why life doesn't start at conception
You: I don't care. Life starts at conception
Me: But you didn't even respond to my argument
You: I don't care. Life starts at conception

Like.. if you want an example of someone close-minded, it's yourself. Simply because you won't engage with any ideas outside of your preconceived notions
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#256
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@dustryder
ask instead of rambling on and looking like a buffoon
Ok, you tell me, why can't I kill my 2 year old in that example?

Scientific facts are not debatable, so why argue with you about something that literally is objective?  All you are showing is that your IQ, if it were channeled into electricity, may be able to toast a piece of bread lightly.


#257
bmdrocks21
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@disgusted
The right to life surpasses all other rights. That fetus has a right to life, and it is not the woman's body. They are two different people connected by a cord.
#258
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@Our_Boat_is_Right
Because murder of a human being without sufficient justification is wrong?

Human life is not scientific fact. What you have done is listed a handful of related scientific facts, waved your hands over them and then concluded that human life is scientific. You haven't been able to respond to my arguments and have continued on with your drivel. Explain to me why this isn't an example of close mindedness
#259
bmdrocks21
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@dustryder
Meh, slavery is pretty bad even economically speaking. It hinders innovation. Just look at the Confederacy before the Civil War. I believe they had one factory at the beginning. Slavery left them in the past. There really aren't any good aspects of it morally or economically speaking. You're taking a difference of opinion to mean that nothing can be right. Apply that to politics. We disagree, but one of us is correct about any given issue. In the same way, we can measure outcomes of certain moral value systems and determine which are better. Looking at the unrest in the Middle East, I think we can definitively say they don't have a very good way to live, morally, economically, or really any other way.

A seed would be sperm, the ground would be the egg in this analogy. A tiny apple just sprouting on the tree would be the fetus. And by what you said " have less value than an apple because of the level of care and time required for them to become an apple" you would be saying that children have less value that adults, morally speaking. More effort went into making them a ripe apple, after all. In this case, the tree might need more water and sunlight to produce the apple, but you are protecting the apple and adding to the bushel. Don't destroy an apple a few months before it is ripened! Just because it is a tiny, budding apple that isn't currently edible doesn't mean it is worthless and disposable. 
#260
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@Our_Boat_is_Right
A blastocyst has no arms legs or head, if only you had the intelligence to reject misogynist propaganda and address the real question. That of every person's right to bodily autonomy. When you are willing to surrender your bodily autonomy then you can demand it of others, you have absolutely NO right to know what is happening in a woman's body, so stay the fuck out.

If only you were educated on what goes on during an abortion.  Clearly you have no idea.
And have no right  to know what is happening in a woman's body, just like you.
#261
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@bmdrocks21
What fetus? How did you get to a fetus?
#262
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@disgusted
Well, to have an abortion, you kinda got to have some other living being for the woman to abort. That's where I got 'fetus' from
#263
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@bmdrocks21
answer post #261 and stop blithering.
#264
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@disgusted
I answered your post. Did you read what I said?

Women abort a fetus. That is how it works. 
#265
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@disgusted
You don't know what abortion is, do you?

It is all coming together....
#266
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@bmdrocks21
How do you know what medical procedure a woman is undergoing? You have ABSOLUTELY no right to such knowledge. Who the fuck are you to invade every woman's body?
#267
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@bmdrocks21
You don't know what reality is, you think it entails your right to control every woman's bodily functions and health. That isn't reality Mr misogynist.
#268
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@disgusted
What are even you talking about? I am discussing a specific medical procedure. That is how I "know" the procedure they are undergoing. You can ban or regulate a medical procedure without any confidential knowledge that I wouldn't have a "right" to. I am not invading every woman's body. I am restricting a killing of an innocent and defenseless human by any woman who would want to plus their doctor.
#269
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@disgusted
Yes, because restricting the murder of a person is being misogynist. Of course.....
#270
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@bmdrocks21
You are invading every woman's body because you have ABSOLUTELY no right to even know what medical procedure the woman is undergoing. You claim you have that right because you claim the right to deny every woman's right to bodily autonomy. You can't get to fetus without denying women that right, no medical procedure not performed on you is any of your business. Get out of the woman's body.