chicken or egg- i argue egg came first

Author: linate

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@linate
in principle we know that there is an 'earliest chicken' and that it came in the form of an egg.

That's probably correct. However, if we were to go back in the egg-laying process, it would some hundreds of millions of years, the species from which birds and reptiles evolved; Amniotes.


Modern day chickens themselves were domesticated thousands of years ago and have undergone "artificial" evolution, just like modern day dogs and cats. So, it's not so easy to pinpoint an answer for the question specifically, so we turn to evolutionary biology.

It would a mutation from two "proto-chickens" eggs that would evolve to form the chickens that were eventually domesticated. So yes, the egg.

disgusted
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@ethang5
Only creationists believe that animals/birds just poofed into existence, learn something about biology before flapping your ignorant gums.
ethang5
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Only creationists believe that animals/birds just poofed into existence,
No sir. Evolutionists believe it too. Just proofing into existence is the definition of abiogenesis.

learn something about biology before flapping your ignorant gums.
Why? You're a troll. No one needs to learn anything to talk to you. It would be a waste of time.
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@ethang5
Accusing me of being a troll is a personal attack. Calling you ignorant is just questioning your insufficient knowledge concerning evolution,be careful.
EtrnlVw
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@disgusted
Only creationists believe that animals/birds just poofed into existence

Lie much? it's the atheists that deny the Creator in the process of things (which is absurd), not creationists. Nice try though Disgusting. 
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@disgusted
Accusing me of being

That's your favorite pastime. 
disgusted
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@EtrnlVw
Denying a non existent creator is the intelligent thing to do, please affirm that Leprechauns exist certainly as much as your gods do. That should be fun.
ethang5
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@disgusted
Accusing me of being a troll is a personal attack.
You've been banned twice for trolling. This site among them. How is calling you what you are an attack?

Calling you ignorant is just questioning your insufficient knowledge concerning evolution,
Lol. Perhaps the dumb mods will be fooled. But have you heard me complain? Call me anything you like. I'll just call you what you are.

...be careful.
Oh, so you aren't trying to "wind me up" anymore? Now you want me to be careful? Lol.

You want me banned so badly we can feel you trembling. Halarious.
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@ethang5
Accusing me of being a troll is a personal attack.
You've been banned twice for trolling. This site among them. How is calling you what you are an attack?

Supply evidence to support this or it is just another personal attack, you really are being reckless.

Calling you ignorant is just questioning your insufficient knowledge concerning evolution,
Lol. Perhaps the dumb mods will be fooled. But have you heard me complain? Call me anything you like. I'll just call you what you are.

...be careful.
Oh, so you aren't trying to "wind me up" anymore? Now you want me to be careful? Lol.

You want me banned so badly we can feel you trembling. Halarious.


It's spelled hilarious and you really are, do you think your reports will be taken more seriously by the "dumb mods". As I said hilarious.

disgusted
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@EtrnlVw
Accusing myself is my favourite pastime? Simply wow, it's no wonder you believe in fairy tales.
ethang5
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@disgusted
do you think your reports will be taken more seriously by the "dumb mods". 
You ban record is solid. My money is on you to be dumb enough to get yourself banned again.

You bet me once and got banned yourself. You seem to have learned nothing. It doesn't take a prophet to see that you will force the Mods to ban you again.

The difference with me is I don't really want you banned. But you decide that, not me, and not the mods.
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@ethang5
I couldn't give a fat rats arse if you get banned, you are the fun that makes my appearance here a reason. You've convinced bsh1 that every little word is an insult and you will keep making that mistake and I'll keep laughing at you, just go ahead and call me a troll again. Bsh1 is looking forward to it.
Pretending to be a victim is one of your most endearing qualities.
disgusted
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@ethang5
I'm having fun and it's even better when I know that you aren't. hahahahaha
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No mention of a donkey How sad. hahahahahaha
ethang5
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@disgusted
I couldn't give a fat rats arse if you get banned, 
Lie. You said you wanted me banned. You got banned instead.

you are the fun that makes my appearance here a reason. 
Lol. OK. It's good to know you like being banned. Have fun.

You've convinced bsh1 that every little word is an insult...
If that were true, you'd already be banned.

you will keep making that mistake and I'll keep laughing at you, 
Lol. My mistake ended in your banning? Keep laughing.

just go ahead and call me a troll again. Bsh1 is looking forward to it.
You are a troll. You even admit it here.

Pretending to be a victim is one of your most endearing qualities.
Must be why you follow me around thread to thread and even site to site. Or maybe it isn't my endearing qualities at all, maybe it just that you are a troll.

Or a jackas.....scuse me, ....a donkey. Either or.
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@ethang5

You are a troll
You just don't get it do you, keep it up. bsh1 is tallying your personal attacks up.
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@disgusted
OK.
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@ethang5
Now then lets see.
You have a mythical proto chicken invented and created by your mythical god as he poofed it into existence and then somehow by religious-evolotionism became an actual chicken used a cubicle begg that your god determined cos he had no idea how much that would hurt coming out of the cloaca, he wasn't and isn't very bright. Now where does your story go from there?
ethang5
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Its your story. I never mentioned God, and the proplto chicken is yours. 

But we still don't know who he'll mate with as you are still dodging the question. Afraid?

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@ethang5
SHOULD I ANSWER THIS POST OR THE ONE BEFORE IT? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Now that we have a propito chicken I must admit to being confused by you and your ignorance of evolution. Just for your absolutely lacking edumacation I need to tell you that you have no idea what you are prattling about rooster.

Now what was the shape of the egg your protimo chicken hatched from?
You seem to have fantasy lifeforms that only exist in your fantasy worldview, can you perhaps relate this to reality or is it beyond you.


ethang5
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@disgusted
Now that we have a propito chicken I must admit to being confused by you and your ignorance of evolution.
You're confused but I'm ignorant? Funny.

Just for your absolutely lacking edumacation I need to tell you that you have no idea what you are prattling about rooster.
As you have never addressed the question, how could I? I doubt even you know what you're prattling about.

Now what was the shape of the egg your protimo chicken hatched from?
You seem to have fantasy lifeforms that only exist in your fantasy worldview, can you perhaps relate this to reality or is it beyond you.
Sorry. I am not a moron evolutionist. Ask the person who proposed the proto-chicken.

All I want to know, and what you are dodging is, who would this proto-chicken mate with? You haven't a clue do you?
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@ethang5

Sorry. I am not a moron evolutionist. Ask the person who proposed the proto-chicken.
That would be you little thang. What was the shape of the egg you claim. Oh no, you claim your proto chicken was poofed into existence from nothing.hahahahahahahah
ethang5
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You really shouldn't cackle that way. It makes you appear mentally unstable.

Anyway, I am not an evolutionist. You are. I don't believe in abiogenesis, you do.

All I want to know is who did your proto-chicken mate with? It's OK to say so if you are ignorant. Really.


Stronn
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@ethang5
All I want to know is who did your proto-chicken mate with
It mated with other proto-chickens.

Go back far enough in chicken ancestry, and eventually you reach a generation that would be unable to mate with modern chickens. They could, however, mate with nearby generations. But there is no clear demarcation.

For instance, a chicken from a few hundred generations ago might successfully mate with modern chickens 99% of the time. Go back further, and you will get to a generation where the success rate drops to 70%. Further still, and the success rate drops more, until it reaches zero. There is no clear point at which you can definitively say that one generation is chickens while the previous generation is non-chickens.


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@disgusted
Oh no, you claim your proto chicken was poofed into existence from
Chickens poofing into existence are not very likely, except in ways of taking a chicken apart here and then transmitting via ELMagnetics to be reassemble else where ex beam this chicken from here to there.  That my come happen on Earth if it does not already exist elsewhere.

What came first is the RNA-DNA coding for the egg.

There is evidence that more complex molecules come from less complex molecules via high pressures.

We know the 4-fold cubo-octahedron transforms into  double set of Euclidean sine-waves, at 90 degrees to each other, however, we also know that these same 2 peaks 2 troughs can configure as;

1} parrallel to each other and define the quadra-pedic side arms and tail flukes of cetacceans,

2} perpendicular to each other as side fins and tail fin at 90 degrees with fish.

We know that the area of the four internal bisecting planes of a spherical cubo-octahedron eguals the outer surface area of that spherical cubo-octahedron ---thank you Archimedes---.

This latter part is very similar what is inside a black hole is expressed on its event horizon --thank you Jacob Bekenstien.

The cubo-octahedron has 8 surface triangles and water is composed of 8 electrons. Biologics are 70 - 85% water.

I can envision parts and pieces of most complex RNA-DNA coding coming from black holes as evaporation of some other means and carried by celestrial phenomena within a galaxy, if not beyond.

We know there appears to be a black hole at center of every galaxy that has been observed.

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@ethang5

You really shouldn't cackle that way. It makes you appear mentally unstable.
 Don't try to hide your personal attacks, you lack the capacity.

Anyway, I am not an evolutionist. You are. I don't believe in abiogenesis, you do.

Of course you're not, you are a fantasist, you believe that all animals were poofed into existence, a shame really. Provide evidence of your spurious claim, that will be funny as you always are.

All I want to know is who did your proto-chicken mate with? It's OK to say so if you are ignorant. Really.

Your proto chicken is all yours to explain, your ignorance of evolution should stand you in good stead for that purpose. hahahahaha
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@Stronn
All I want to know is who did your proto-chicken mate with
It mated with other proto-chickens.

Thank you stronn.

Go back far enough in chicken ancestry, and eventually you reach a generation that would be unable to mate with modern chickens. They could, however, mate with nearby generations. But there is no clear demarcation.

For instance, a chicken from a few hundred generations ago might successfully mate with modern chickens 99% of the time. Go back further, and you will get to a generation where the success rate drops to 70%. Further still, and the success rate drops more, until it reaches zero. There is no clear point at which you can definitively say that one generation is chickens while the previous generation is non-chickens.
OK. Understood. Now let's examine this closely.

Chickens today were once dinosaurs having no feathers and no beaks. Now, 1. did the changes making them into chickens over time occur because of genetic mutations?

2. Did these mutations occur in individuals, the whole group, or many individuals within the group coincidentally at the same time?

3. If this/these proto-chicken(s) mated with an earlier generation that did not have the mutation, would that not hinder or stop the propagation of the mutation within the gene pool?

That is all for now.
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@ethang5
Read about evolution and your questions are answered. But you already claim to know all about evolution. huh? So why the questions.
ethang5
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Is there going to be a list of people banned and the length of the sentence and the reason for banning? I'm looking forward to seeing some names. hahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahaha

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@ethang5

Chickens today were once dinosaurs having no feathers and no beaks.
More accurately, chickens today are descended from dinosaurs. 

1. did the changes making them into chickens over time occur because of genetic mutations?
Yes.

2. Did these mutations occur in individuals, the whole group, or many individuals within the group coincidentally at the same time?
The mutations occur at an even lower level than individuals. They occur in individual cells. Each cell in your body can potentially have one or more own mutations. Most mutations, however, are not passed to offspring. It is only when a mutation occurs in a gamete (sperm or ovum) that it can be passed on to offspring. If a mutation occurs in a gamete, then it can be passed down to offspring, who then possess the mutation in every cell, including gametes, which is how it passes the mutation along to its own offspring. (A mutation can also occur during cell division in the zygote, in which case the offspring will possess the mutation in only some cells.)

3. If this/these proto-chicken(s) mated with an earlier generation that did not have the mutation, would that not hinder or stop the propagation of the mutation within the gene pool?
Nope, makes no difference. At any point in time, the population is just all living members of the species, regardless of age. A mutation spreads through a population by its carrier(s) producing offspring. This is, in fact, the simplest definition of evolution: the change in frequency of alleles (gene variants) in a population over time.