You are the mark

Author: secularmerlin 5 years ago

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secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 06:05PM

Imagine I have 3 cups turned over, and ask you to guess which one of these cups has a coin under it. You say that the coin is under a cup, and point to one. I show you that there is no coin under the cup, and then reveal which cup has the coin under it.

You can certainly tell that you picked the wrong cup, you were mistaken. You missed the mark.

Ok. Now imagine that there are thousands upon thousands of cups and only one coin. Also imagine that you can only pick one. Naturally you will only win as prize if you choose the cup with the coin under it but the carnival barker also informs you that if you do not find the coin you will be punished, worse if you don't play you can't find the coin so you will certainly be punished.

Still with me? Ok here comes the real meat.

You pick the wrong cup (because of course you do there's thousands of friggin cups) and you will be punished. As they come to administer the punishment the following conversation takes place. (If you refuse to play the game this conversation may still be assumed to have happened).

You: That's not fair! It's nearly impossible to choose the right one at random!

Carnival barker: sorry but you chose this for yourself. I explained the rules and you did not choose the cup with the coin therefore you have chosen punishment.

You: Well can you at least show me the coin?

Carnival barker: oh it's down there. I saw a guy win just last week and guys used to win all the time before I started.

You: Well I don't even think you have a coin!

Carnival barker: well your getting punished anyway and it's your own fault.

Ok that's the whole conversation what do you think? Was the contest fair? Would it be more or less fair if your family and nearly everyone you know is expecting you to choose the same cup? What if the cups are under the table where you cant see them and you just point and as an added wrinkle if the spot you point to doesn't contain a cup it counts as a loss. Now in addition to refusing to show you the coin the barker also refuses to show you the cups. Is it fair now?

Perhaps you think I'm referencing you. If so ask yourself do I make any arguments like the ones in this hypothetical example. If not then this post likely is not aimed at you.

If on the other hand you have ever had a conversation like the one above (from either perspective) then please feel free to share.

Mopac

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Mopac

10.17.2019 06:30PM

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@secularmerlin

Sounds like, "There is no reason to life, it is all blind luck"

Topic's author

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 06:42PM

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@Mopac

The cups and the coin are not the whole carnival my friend. There is a lot to do without ever worrying about the cups. The only real problem is that the human beings presiding over the game insist on the punishment (which even if it only amounts to everyone at the carnival laughing and making fun of you seems a little unfair to me). Without those guys the cups wouldn't appear to matter at all from the perspective of the carnival goer. You could win or lose or not play and it would make zero difference.

Mopac

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Mopac

10.17.2019 06:46PM

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@secularmerlin

In otherwords, like this topic, it's all meaningless.

Topic's author

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 06:53PM

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@Mopac

In otherwords, like this topic, it's all meaningless.

The game with the cup and the coin? Not at all. Play if you want. Maybe there is a coin and you will get lucky and find it. Just don't judge others for choosing a different cup or deciding not to play or even saying they don't believe there even is a coin.

Mopac

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Mopac

10.17.2019 07:07PM

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@secularmerlin

How arbitrary.

Topic's author

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 07:09PM

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@Mopac

I mean unless you know where the coin is before you pick you will by necessity be making your decision arbitrarily.

Mopac

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Mopac

10.17.2019 07:16PM

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@secularmerlin

I'm afraid your story is losing my interest. Perhaps you should speak plainly about what you are really saying.

RationalMadman

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RationalMadman

10.17.2019 07:25PM

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@secularmerlin

God isn't randomly reached, but was randomly generated. Theres a logical God who is part evil, part good that blatantly does exist. If there was no God and it all was just random, why aren't we randomly bursting, turning purple, having chairs becone liquid and falling to the floor? Because God organises it.

The God itself was randomly generated but the rabdom variable generator eventually granted a being the capacity to rig the random generation of what is and is not true at any given time. That is how God began and any reality woth organised logic and laws of physics, chemistry and biology became possible.

She is Fiora to me, but doesn't mind if you get her name and gender wrong (does dislike it but not significantly), Aurora refers more to itself (what was once rabdom) than ti the being who evebtuakky gained control of it. Fiora is definitely not Aurora, she was not present or activated at the dawn of reality. Everythijg is a sinulated set of 1 (is) and 0 (is not) which refers to absolutely anything that can and can't be trye at any given time in our Matrix coding.

Topic's author

#10

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 07:27PM

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@RationalMadman

Or maybe physical reality is governed by physical laws which do not require any conscious direction. Till I see the coin one cup is as likely as any other and there may not be a coin.

Topic's author

#11

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 07:28PM

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@Mopac

I'm afraid your story is losing my interest.

Ok bye

#12

RationalMadman

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RationalMadman

10.17.2019 07:37PM

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@secularmerlin

God has zero of the five senses to be experienced in the first place. She has no physical body. Just a persona and consciousness.

Reality was random, before God was randomly generated. At that time, things could randomly scintillate in and out of existence, alter their form etc. The sole reason why things aren't randomly doing that to any significant degree is that the majority is organised, the rest God simply may not care about or have total control over. My God isn't omnipotent, simply omniscient. God knows of the randomness, lets some be left up to the original "fate" but organises the rest. If she truly organised everything rigidly, she'd want to kill herself out of boredom, letting some be random is also beneficial to her.

Topic's author

#13

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.17.2019 07:39PM

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@RationalMadman

How have you determined all this? Just show me the coin and I will be on my way.

#14

disgusted

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disgusted

10.18.2019 03:01AM

Mopac

Frightening ain't it?

Topic's author

#15

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.18.2019 03:43AM

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@disgusted

I disagree. I dont know isn't frightening. It is a chance to learn. I sincerely hope that I never know everything.

#16

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

10.18.2019 05:13AM

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@disgusted

Frightening ain't it?

What is it that you find so frightening?

#17

Mopac

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Mopac

10.18.2019 01:38PM

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@secularmerlin

It's all arbitrary. The measure is yourself. Therefore, you are never missing the mark. That is what I am getting here.

To that, I believe this.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Topic's author

#18

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.18.2019 01:52PM

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@Mopac

If not knowing something is a sin then I confess my sin. I do not know the origins of the universe as it is beyond human epistemology to say what happened before the time at which our best math breaks down if we follow our best current cosmological models.

Topic's author

#19

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.18.2019 01:52PM

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@Mopac

Now what happens.

#20

Mopac

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Mopac

10.18.2019 02:16PM

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@secularmerlin

Surely, God is The Singularity, there is none like God, and I am a witness to eternity. I have seen the resurrection, and I know The Ultimate Reality is God, the origin, sustainer, transformer, and end of all.

Topic's author

#21

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.18.2019 03:15PM

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@Mopac

You are welcome to call what would give every appearance of being a mindless and unguided naturalistic occurrence God. You are even welcome to worship it. This has never been the part of your claim I disagree with. It is your suggestions that it is

Reasonable expectations based on past experience leads me to believe that now that you have softened your claim to one that I do not disagree with you are about to introduce elements to your argument that I do not accept and react incredulously that I would accept your softened claim but not your more specific claims.

#22

Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

10.18.2019 03:31PM

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@disgusted

welcome bak

#23

Mopac

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Mopac

10.18.2019 03:31PM

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@secularmerlin

The Ultimate Reality is God.

You say The Ultimate Reality has the appearance of being mindless. I say that God could just as easily appear to have a mind that manifests itself as natural occurrence. This is no strange thing, and is certainly less superstitious than how you likely take God having a mind to be.

#24

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

10.24.2019 08:18PM

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@secularmerlin

I mean unless you know where the coin is before you pick you will by necessity be making your decision arbitrarily.

That would be cheating!

Topic's author

#25

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

10.24.2019 10:54PM

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@3RU7AL

I mean unless you know where the coin is before you pick you will by necessity be making your decision arbitrarily.
That would be cheating!

Then if one has a religion which is revealed truth then one knows where the coin is and is ergo cheating. If however it is impossible to know which religion actually has revealed truth or indeed if any does then it is not cheating it is just a high degree of confidence in an arbitrary decision.

#26

Deb-8-a-bull

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Deb-8-a-bull

10.24.2019 11:16PM

Nice sec mer.

#27

Deb-8-a-bull

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Deb-8-a-bull

10.24.2019 11:18PM

What if your parents make you pick a certain cup?

#28

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

10.25.2019 05:08PM

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@secularmerlin

Ok. Now imagine that there are thousands upon thousands of cups and only one coin. Also imagine that you can only pick one. Naturally you will only win as prize if you choose the cup with the coin under it but the carnival barker also informs you that if you do not find the coin you will be punished, worse if you don't play you can't find the coin so you will certainly be punished.

Still with me? Ok here comes the real meat.

You pick the wrong cup (because of course you do there's thousands of friggin cups) and you will be punished. As they come to administer the punishment the following conversation takes place. (If you refuse to play the game this conversation may still be assumed to have happened).

This is pure genius.

8 days later

#29

crossed

Debates: 62

Posts: 516

crossed

11.02.2019 10:16PM

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@secularmerlin

are you talking about hell.I think it was sorta designed that way when Satan and his crew created all those religions to muddy the water.So he can take more people to hell with him.

#30

ethang5

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ethang5

11.03.2019 04:53AM

Now imagine that there are thousands upon thousands of cups and only one coin.

OK.

even if it only amounts to everyone at the carnival laughing and making fun of you

In otherwords, like this topic, it's all meaningless.

The game with the cup and the coin? Not at all.

Of course it is. You said its an arbitrary choice one does not need to make and the "punishment" is innocuous. How is it not meaningless?

If.... it is impossible to know which religion actually has revealed truth or indeed if any does then it is not cheating it is just a high degree of confidence in an arbitrary decision.

Why would it be impossible to know?

Of course, you have rigged the scenario. I've asked you before, if your case is so good, why do you have to fake the scenario?

I can shake the cups without lifting them and one of them makes a "tink, tink" sound of a coin being hit by the lip of the overturned cup.

I can take a metal detector and see the faint image of a coin under one of the cups.

I can watch old video of people picking the wrong cups and through a process of elimination, pick the right cup.

But the barker says no, I can't do those things. Why? Because it is impossible to know which cup actually has the coin or indeed if any does.

But why is it impossible?

Because there are just so many cups! He says.

I sincerely hope that I never know everything.

I think you can let go of that worry SecMer.