Is morality objective or subjective?

Author: Fallaneze

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The historical accuracy of an old book does not support any supernatural claims within that same book.
History is a confirmation of what was spoken before the event happened. Is that a reasonable statement? 
I think you're describing prophecy.

Let's say that your old book contains 100% verifiable prophecy.

Accurate predictions of historical events - does not - support any supernatural claims within that same book.

Each individual claim must be verified and taken on its own merits. 

There is no number of accurate claims that gives a person, or an old book, BLANKET CREDIBILITY.

What kind of prophecies about real events were predicted beforehand and came about as said?
It may surprise you but rise of ISIS was predicted way back during late 80s. Shocked? But it’s true. A Bulgarian fortune teller who died 20 years ago warned of the rise of ISIS by claiming there would be a 'great Muslim war' in 2016. [LINK]

Despite these prognostications of Russian staying power, the Soviet state was actually in grave danger.
Meyer declared this in stark terms:

"Now let us consider the implication of our assertion that if the Soviet Union doesn’t take the West in the next 20 years or so, it never will: it means that if present trends continue, we’re going to win the cold war."

Meyer was right. The Soviet Union collapsed only eight years later. [LINK]

The Simpsons has almost prophetic abilities.

These are pictures of Donald Trump as president. In the year 2000, they aired an episode where they said that Donald Trump would become president. The episode below was aired in 2015, before Trump had been elected. They predicted a presidency 16 years before it happened.

In this episode, Homer was trying to vote for Obama, but the machine changed his vote to McCain. That was aired in 2008. Then in the 2012 elections, lots of people said the machines were changing their votes. [LINK]
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God has said, You shall not kill/murder.
And yet this same god demanded repeatedly that "his people" kill every man, woman, and male child of their enemies (saving all of the virgin females to serve as slaves of course).

This hypothetical god demanded child slaughter.
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But God has our time (v. 26) in His hands. 
So, your god sanctions abortion in the exact same way it sanctions storm damage.

This hypothetical god knows all and controls all, with intentionality.
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The historical accuracy of an old book does not support any supernatural claims within that same book.
History is a confirmation of what was spoken before the event happened. Is that a reasonable statement? 
I think you're describing prophecy.
Yes, that is correct. 


Let's say that your old book contains 100% verifiable prophecy.

Accurate predictions of historical events - does not - support any supernatural claims within that same book.
But the books/writings/gospels/letters do express information that is later confirmed by history. 

It gives reason to trust other things said as true. It is just another verification that what is said is reasonable to believe.

What is more, the way prophecy is interwoven through Scripture by around 44 different authors all claiming to speak from God gives another reason to trust the revelation is from God since these prophecies come about as revealed. Then to add to this, the number of prophecies or predictions all coming about as predicted is something not witnessed by other human beings. There are over 600 concerning the Messiah alone. They point to a specific individual, coming through a specific lineage, at a specific time, to specific places, in relation to specific things or about specific events, etc.

You give a few predictions about the same individual (Donald Trump). That is reasonable considering Donald Trump was a well-known public figure who was outspoken about politics. Jesus is an obscure figure from an obscure town who others are enthralled in His teachings and they also witness as being crucified and they claim He has risen from the dead with severe cost to them. Most are persecuted and killed because of their belief, yet they do not back away. 

As I said, there is also the typology in the OT that speaks to this same person, Jesus. The typology, imagery, and spiritual teaching derived from the physical OT is massive. It would take me many, many posts to tell of just what I know and I am not nearly as knowledgable as many others on the same subject.  


Each individual claim must be verified and taken on its own merits.
The thing is, it has been my experience no matter how reasonable the biblical and historical evidence of a biblical claim, those who don't want to believe will not. 

There is no number of accurate claims that gives a person, or an old book, BLANKET CREDIBILITY.
For instance?


What kind of prophecies about real events were predicted beforehand and came about as said?
It may surprise you but rise of ISIS was predicted way back during late 80s. Shocked? But it’s true. A Bulgarian fortune teller who died 20 years ago warned of the rise of ISIS by claiming there would be a 'great Muslim war' in 2016. [LINK]
"It may surprise you but rise of ISIS was predicted way back during late 80s. Shocked? But it’s true. A Bulgarian fortune teller who died 20 years ago warned of the rise of ISIS by claiming there would be a 'great Muslim war' in 2016."

A great Muslim war? The Muslims have been fighting forever. Safe prophecy. What great Muslim war are we speaking of in 2016?

"In 1989, she is said to have made reference to the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center. She once said: 'Horror, horror! The American brethren will fall after being attacked by the steel birds. ' She added that 'innocent blood will gush."

Very vague. Did she actually say this would happen in 2001 or make specific reference to the World Trade Centers? Horror, horror...says nothing about the World Trade Center. It could be in reference to anything. Anything can be read into them with the vague language.

"The pensioner once predicted that the 44th US president would be African American - but she also warned that he would be the 'last US president'. 2025- Europe population will be zero." 


Okay, let's test these two prophecies. Obama will again become president, the last US president? Well, what about Donald Trump? He is the 45th president.

Let us see if Europe's population is zero in 2025.

***

"Looking at Baba Vanga’s predictions from a skeptical point of view, there are a couple of things that are worthy to mention.

First of all, all those predictions being widely shared on social networks have nearly no actual sources.

In fact, the only thing that we can connect to Vanga is a book published in 2010, called The Weiser Field Guide to the Paranormal, where it is claimed that Vanga foretold the break-up of the Soviet Union, the Chernobyl disaster, the correct date of Stalin’s death, the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk, the September 11 attacks, Topalov’s victory in the world chess tournament, the tensions with North Korea.

So there you have it.

More alleged prophecies for 2019, which are, surprisingly, similar to predictions she is believed to have made for 2016, 2017, as well as 2018."


Despite these prognostications of Russian staying power, the Soviet state was actually in grave danger.
Meyer declared this in stark terms:

"Now let us consider the implication of our assertion that if the Soviet Union doesn’t take the West in the next 20 years or so, it never will: it means that if present trends continue, we’re going to win the cold war."

Meyer was right. The Soviet Union collapsed only eight years later. [LINK]

The Simpsons has almost prophetic abilities.

These are pictures of Donald Trump as president. In the year 2000, they aired an episode where they said that Donald Trump would become president. The episode below was aired in 2015, before Trump had been elected. They predicted a presidency 16 years before it happened.

In this episode, Homer was trying to vote for Obama, but the machine changed his vote to McCain. That was aired in 2008. Then in the 2012 elections, lots of people said the machines were changing their votes. [LINK]


Every link given takes me back to the same link.
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God has said, You shall not kill/murder.
And yet this same god demanded repeatedly that "his people" kill every man, woman, and male child of their enemies (saving all of the virgin females to serve as slaves of course).
The OT explains the reason why God brought judgment on them time and time again. These people did evil in God's sight. They threatened Israel and their worship of God. By conquering the land God eliminated the threats that would have continually come from these people. 

I find that if you want to know something of the history of the ANE J.P. Holding and Glenn Miller are well informed. J.P. Holding notes some of the things known about the Canaanites here,

Politically the Canaanites were aggressive and warlike. Religiously we have this data:
...the list of Canaanite "religious" practices included:
  1. Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)
  2. Incest
  3. Bestiality
  4. Homosexual practices
  5. Cultic prostitution--both male and female

Miller concludes, "So, we have international and extreme violence and unusually decadent (and destructive/dangerous) religious practices...." And with this in mind, let's ask the next question: Had the Canaanites been left alone, what would our world be like today?


I can expand on this with a number of reasons and some biblical quotes but I'm running short on time tonight. I will try and remember to follow up on the saving of the virgin girls tomorrow. 


This hypothetical god demanded child slaughter.
God forbade child sacrifice and brought judgment on the Canaanites, Amalekites, and others.

Again, if God takes an innocent life He will restore it.
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Again, if God takes an innocent life He will restore it.
How do you know this?  Which passage in your old book makes this claim?
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God has said, You shall not kill/murder.
And yet this same god demanded repeatedly that "his people" kill every man, woman, and male child of their enemies (saving all of the virgin females to serve as slaves of course).
The OT explains the reason why God brought judgment on them time and time again. These people did evil in God's sight.
I see.  So, where in the ten commandments does it say "do not kill - except - if that person or their parents and or their town is evil"??

I thought your old book said something about, "love thine enemy" or somesuch.

They threatened Israel and their worship of God. By conquering the land God eliminated the threats that would have continually come from these people. 
By this same standard, does your hypothetical god generally endorse the wholesale slaughter of any non-believers and or oppressors of believers?

Don't you claim that the principles distilled from your old book are "objective immutable eternal laws of morality"??
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Politically the Canaanites were aggressive and warlike.
AND apparently so were the Israelites.

Religiously we have this data:
...the list of Canaanite "religious" practices included:
Ok,

Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)
You mean like when your hypothetical god told Abraham to sacrifice his son Issac?

I guess if some children are sacrificed to gods other than your favorite god, it's better to just kill 100% of them?

Incest
You mean like the aristocracy in Ancient Rome and Egypt?

If your neighbor is molesting their children (incest) does that justify someone killing every single person in your town?

Bestiality
Sure, that's certainly atrocious, but does it really justify killing all men women and male children? 

I mean, what's "worse", molesting animals or MASS MURDER?

Homosexuality
Are you suggesting that (according to your old book) all homosexuals should be summarily slaughtered?

Cultic prostitution--both male and female
Ok, you mean like in Ancient Rome and Egypt?

I'm sure all of those young virgin girls the Israelites forced to work as temple slaves were treated very respectfully.
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Miller concludes, "So, we have international and extreme violence and unusually decadent (and destructive/dangerous) religious practices...." And with this in mind, let's ask the next question: Had the Canaanites been left alone, what would our world be like today?
The question, "Had the Canaanites been left alone, what would our world be like today?" is an appeal to fear and an appeal to ignorance.

There are many societies that were not slaughtered by the Israelites that practiced many if not most of these same rites.

Namely, the Romans and the Egyptians.

And the world is exactly as it is today.

I can expand on this with a number of reasons and some biblical quotes but I'm running short on time tonight. I will try and remember to follow up on the saving of the virgin girls tomorrow. 
No rush.  It sounds like basic animal instinct.  For example, when a male lion takes over (invades) a pride it kills (and or banishes) all the males, and spares all the females.
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But God has our time (v. 26) in His hands. 
So, your god sanctions abortion in the exact same way it sanctions storm damage.
God does not sanction abortion. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

If God takes innocent life in the judgment of the guilty He will restore that life. If He takes an innocent life for other reasons (i.e., perhaps to draw us closer to Him and rely on Him more, or perhaps to cause us to think of life and its meaning) that event tends to do one of two things in us, draw us to God or repel us from God. There is/are a time/times in our lives when we tend to think about this issue of God's existence. You usually hear it in the form of the question, "Why would a loving God do such a terrible thing?" Then they proceed to critique God (Argument by outrage).



This hypothetical god knows all and controls all, with intentionality.


Hypothetical to you. God is real to me. He confirms Himself in my daily life as well as in everything made. By getting to know Him I come to understand and make sense of life.

The biblical God is revealed as all-knowing and sovereign. Sometimes God chooses to let evil exist for a time and for a purpose. But in time after time we see wording like this, 

Genesis 15:13-16 (NIV)
13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

God tolerates wrongful action for a purpose. If He judged everyone the moment they sinned we would all be dead without any mercy shown us. Take as an example Sodom and . 

Genesis 18:20 (NASB)
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

Abrahams asks for God's mercy here in that if Abraham can find ten good people the cities will be spared. 

23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

So, in both these two cases we find God's mercy.
1. God will not destroy Sodom if even ten righteous people are found there.
2. God waits (prolongs judgment) until the sins of a nation are heaped to the limit or measure before He brings judgment upon that nation.
3. God makes us realize that our sinful actions affect and have a detrimental effect on us and those around us. Innocent people are hurt. That is what sin does. It not only hurts us but others. 

Sometimes we, by our evil actions, witness the hurt of innocent people around us. God tolerates our evil actions to a point and no further. Then He judges those actions in some way. I find this is true of my Christian walk. When I sin I find those sins have a negative effect on the ones I love. I find circumstances go south until I confess those sins and repent. But I know one thing, in Jesus Christ I stand in righteousness before God because of His imputed righteousness, not because of anything I have done. If God judged me on my own merit I would be in bad shape. (^8 

So, it is by God's grace and mercy that we are not judged immediately for our sins (or our sinful action is paid for by another innocent party who gracefully agrees to do so), that we would have a time to repent and seek His forgiveness. But the more a nation ignores and goes against God the more they heap up their sins to the final measure or to a point in which God judges that nation. 

That is why I find the situation in the USA very interesting right now. It is a nation divided. There is tremendous corruption in government in which the liberal left has orchestrated a situation where the leader of the country, the President, is presumed guilty by accusation without any due process by Adam Shiff and the Democrat Party. This wing of the government is very corrupt, IMO, and is corrupting a massive number of US inhabitants by its use of the media and propaganda. Its policy of ignoring justice by rewarding illegal activity (i.e., Illegal immigration, abortion on demand or even promoting killing the newborn after birth, drug use, etc), ignoring poverty to seize power, and finding any means necessary to obtain power is wrong. IMO, your country will go in one of two ways depending on the next election. Either this corruption in the deep state will be purged or your country will reap what it sows and head down the road to socialism and big government where the corrupt bureaucracy pads its pockets at the expense of the rest. If it goes that way it is only a matter of time before you will see the judgment of such actions. Throughout history, eventually, the fate of nations is decided by the evil of its people. There is a measure beyond which God brings judgment.  
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So, your god sanctions abortion in the exact same way it sanctions storm damage.
God does not sanction abortion. How do you arrive at that conclusion?
Look, you've argued that god determines (intentionally chooses) which houses get damaged by a storm.

By that same reasoning, god determines (intentionally chooses) which people get killed by a storm.

And by that same reasoning, god determines (intentionally chooses) which people get killed by a killer.

This god made the storm exactly the same way they made the killer.

This god knew exactly what the consequences of making the storm would be.

This god knew exactly what the consequences of making the killer would be.

It's just like laying a trap.

If you're smart enough, you will lay the trap where it will catch a rabbit.

If god is smart enough, it will create a storm that will damage the specific houses god originally intended.

If god is smart enough, it will create a killer that will kill the specific people god originally intended.

If god lays a trap, like making a storm or making a killer, and that storm and or killer do exactly what god knew they were going to do even before they were created, then that god is responsible in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY a trapper is responsible for the actions and or consequences of their traps.

This "intentional god" hypothesis makes humans (and storms and everything else) into god's-sock-puppets.
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God tolerates our evil actions to a point and no further. Then He judges those actions in some way.
Seriously, if your hypothetical god is so super-smart-and-super-powerful, why bother even making laws in the first place?

Nobody can interfere with god's plan right?  I mean, it would be impossible to outsmart god right?  It should be impossible to avoid god's ultimate justice, right?

Good people will get rewarded and evil people will be punished BY gOD.

NO HUMAN ACTION REQUIRED.
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That is why I find the situation in the USA very interesting right now. It is a nation divided. There is tremendous corruption in government

I agree that there is tremendous corruption.

...in which the liberal left has orchestrated a situation where the leader of the country, the President, is presumed guilty by accusation without any due process by Adam Shiff and the Democrat Party.
The CONSTITUTION gives the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES broad discretion in creating its own RULES OF IMPEACHMENT.

This CONSTITUTIONAL POWER is exactly the same power that allowed REPUBLICANS to impeach Clinton for a non-criminal act.  An act, I'd like to mention, which was discovered in the course of a COMPLETELY UNRELATED INVESTIGATION regarding some real-estate-deals (White Water).  Clinton's action was considered GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE and therefore was ACTUALLY IMPEACHED.  Yes, Clinton was IMPEACHED under the exact same process that is happening today.

Congress is not held to the same standards as a civil or criminal court.

They are granted broad discretion in creating their own RULES OF IMPEACHMENT.

This wing of the government is very corrupt, IMO, and is corrupting a massive number of US inhabitants by its use of the media and propaganda.
I agree that the government is very corrupt and is aided by its use of media and propaganda, WHICH IS PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO TURN CITIZENS AGAINST EACH OTHER BY SPREADING OPINIONS DISGUISED AS FACTS.

Its policy of ignoring justice by rewarding illegal activity (i.e., Illegal immigration, abortion on demand or even promoting killing the newborn after birth, drug use, etc),
None of your examples are REWARDED.

...ignoring poverty to seize power, and finding any means necessary to obtain power is wrong.
Well, sort of.  How do you propose convincing the RICH AND POWERFUL to SELF-REGULATE?

Does your old book have any clear guidelines for this?  Or does it just say, "pray and ask god".

IMO, your country will go in one of two ways depending on the next election. Either this corruption in the deep state will be purged or your country will reap what it sows and head down the road to socialism and big government where the corrupt bureaucracy pads its pockets at the expense of the rest.
THE DEEP-STATE IS GOING NOWHERE, REGARDLESS OF THE ELECTION, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEEP-STATE.

If it goes that way it is only a matter of time before you will see the judgment of such actions.
Are you kidding me?  This administration has done NOTHING to mitigate corruption.

Throughout history, eventually, the fate of nations is decided by the evil of its people. There is a measure beyond which God brings judgment.  
I'm sure everything is happening exactly as your hypothetical god intended from the beginning of time.

What a glorious and perfect world has this god wrought.
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Again, if God takes an innocent life He will restore it.
How do you know this?  Which passage in your old book makes this claim?

There are many. I will give you a few. 

First, I will establish that God as Judge does not hold those human beings who take innocent life as guiltless. 

Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.

So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and bloodguiltiness be on you.

‘Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Thus says the Lord, “Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

2 Chronicles 7:18-20 (NASB)
18 then I will establish your royal throne as I covenanted with your father David, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man to be ruler in Israel.’
19 “But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot you from My land which I have given you, and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight and I will make it a proverb and a byword among all peoples.

***
But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

God does not condemn the innocent but rescues them. If they die they are rescued in the resurrection of the dead. Those in Christ Jesus are innocent, not in and of themselves but because of what He has done on behalf of their trust, faith, and belief in Him. 

Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the Lord your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you.”

The Lord is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed.”

The righteous will inherit the land And dwell in it forever.

What land? I believe it is speaking ultimately of the heavenly land. 

May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

But the lovingkindness of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children’s children,

“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

*** 

And finally, here is an important teaching for you and me:

and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: the Lord is with you when you are with Him. And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.


And those who know Your name will put their trust in You, For You, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You.

For the Lord loves justice And does not forsake His godly ones; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.

For the Lord will not abandon His people, Nor will He forsake His inheritance.

God does not forsake His people. They are rescued after their time of trial and trouble and live forever in His presence. 

He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion.

Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the Lord, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


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God has said, You shall not kill/murder.
And yet this same god demanded repeatedly that "his people" kill every man, woman, and male child of their enemies (saving all of the virgin females to serve as slaves of course).
The OT explains the reason why God brought judgment on them time and time again. These people did evil in God's sight.
I see.  So, where in the ten commandments does it say "do not kill - except - if that person or their parents and or their town is evil"??

I thought your old book said something about, "love thine enemy" or somesuch.
Exodus 20:13 (NASB)
13 “You shall not murder.

That is a separate commandment.

There is a difference between murder and righteous justice. Just as the Canaanites and Amalekites were warmongers, murderers, wrongdoers in many different ways God was addressing their injustice and the limits of His patience with them by clearing them from the land that Israel was to occupy. He was making sure they would not pollute His chosen people with their idolatrous ways and beliefs that went contrary to God's holy and just ways.  


It does say to love your enemies, in both testaments. 


They threatened Israel and their worship of God. By conquering the land God eliminated the threats that would have continually come from these people. 
By this same standard, does your hypothetical god generally endorse the wholesale slaughter of any non-believers and or oppressors of believers?

Don't you claim that the principles distilled from your old book are "objective immutable eternal laws of morality"??

The covenant God made with Israel included the Ten Commandments and 613 Mosaic commandments. Those 613 commands were specific to Israel but also had principles that we can learn from and apply to our laws today. As for the Ten Commandments, Jesus summed them up in two - love God and love your neighbour. 

Loving your neighbour does not involve killing them for no reason or for greed and covetousness. 
Loving God does not involve you treating those made in His likeness and image in an unloving manner. It involved doing what is just and right. 
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Miller concludes, "So, we have international and extreme violence and unusually decadent (and destructive/dangerous) religious practices...." And with this in mind, let's ask the next question: Had the Canaanites been left alone, what would our world be like today?
The question, "Had the Canaanites been left alone, what would our world be like today?" is an appeal to fear and an appeal to ignorance.

There are many societies that were not slaughtered by the Israelites that practiced many if not most of these same rites.
Israel was going into the land God gave them. These tribes or"nations" were either inhabiting the land or were neighbours. What did God tell Israel? He told them to drive out the inhabitants of the land. Do you think the Canaanites were going to go willingly? Knowing God was going to purge them from the land they had the opportunity to leave beforehand. They did not so God instructed them to kill every one of them, except of course for the virgins. I will still have to get into that discussion. 

God is concerned with His people and with their relationship to Him. He does not want foreign peoples to influence the way Israel worshiped or the way God was instructing them to live. But that is precisely what happened. Israel, in all the years they inhabited the land it was seen that only briefly did not seek after the gods of those around them, including Baal and child sacrifice. 


Namely, the Romans and the Egyptians.
Again, God is addressing an OT people where customs and beliefs are different from today. Glenn Miller has documented this very nicely. Isreal was going into the Promised Land, before the exile, before the Romans. God had already brought judgment on Egypt for their harsh treatment of Israel. That was behind Israel. Now they were going to a new land that God had given them and the peoples around did not respect this, even after (I'm convinced) hearing how God had given victory to Israel.   


And the world is exactly as it is today.
Are you serious? In what way are you speaking? The covenant with OT Israel does not exist today. OT Israel was dispersed during the victory and destruction of Jerusalem and Israel in AD 70. After that Israel could no longer live up to the covenant in the prescribed way they had agreed to. The curses of Deuteronomy 28 was poured out on them for their disobedience. 


I can expand on this with a number of reasons and some biblical quotes but I'm running short on time tonight. I will try and remember to follow up on the saving of the virgin girls tomorrow. 
No rush.  It sounds like basic animal instinct.  For example, when a male lion takes over (invades) a pride it kills (and or banishes) all the males, and spares all the females.


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...in which the liberal left has orchestrated a situation where the leader of the country, the President, is presumed guilty by accusation without any due process by Adam Shiff and the Democrat Party.
The CONSTITUTION gives the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES broad discretion in creating its own RULES OF IMPEACHMENT.
Not to go searching for crimes but to investigate them. Even then shifty Shiff is not allowing a due process or any fairness. The law states innocent until proven guilty. The Dems have already convicted Him of guilt without showing any crimes but they continue to look. 


This CONSTITUTIONAL POWER is exactly the same power that allowed REPUBLICANS to impeach Clinton for a non-criminal act.
He continually lied to Congress. 

  An act, I'd like to mention, which was discovered in the course of a COMPLETELY UNRELATED INVESTIGATION regarding some real-estate-deals (White Water).  Clinton's action was considered GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE and therefore was ACTUALLY IMPEACHED.  Yes, Clinton was IMPEACHED under the exact same process that is happening today.
Not at all the same. Where do you get your information - the Communist News Network?

It was bipartisan. This current hearing is totally partisan. 

Clinton was allowed to call witnesses, cross-examine witnesses, have his lawyers present during the finds, etc. Shiff has an iron fist over who can even speak. He also shuts down the due process and denies the Republicans their say. 


Congress is not held to the same standards as a civil or criminal court.
The Intelligence Committee should be involved in matters of national security, not a fishing trip. Meanwhile, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, and others are ignored to a large degree and put on the backburner.

The Judicial Oversight Committee would have been a better choice in an Impeachment Hearing yet the Dems have nothing to impeach but innuendo and second and third and fourth hand testimony. It is a pathetic display of injustice.  

For 2.5 years they went on a witch-hunt with the Muller investigation. When that found nothing they went on another fishing trip. Not only this, 19 hours after Trump was sworn into office the Washington Post had already started the impeachment rumour. It was reiterated by Democrats or Media during every month of Trump's presidency.  


They are granted broad discretion in creating their own RULES OF IMPEACHMENT.
They make it up as they go to give the appearance of misconduct and high crimes. Any rules that deny the accused rights is not a fair hearing.





This wing of the government is very corrupt, IMO, and is corrupting a massive number of US inhabitants by its use of the media and propaganda.


I agree that the government is very corrupt and is aided by its use of media and propaganda, WHICH IS PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO TURN CITIZENS AGAINST EACH OTHER BY SPREADING OPINIONS DISGUISED AS FACTS.
I speak of the Democrats. It is the deep state, operating to undermine the elected president.

The opinions disguised as facts have come from the liberal mainstream media who have an agenda. Their stories have been discredited time after time.  


Its policy of ignoring justice by rewarding illegal activity (i.e., Illegal immigration, abortion on demand or even promoting killing the newborn after birth, drug use, etc),
None of your examples are REWARDED.
Not following? The Dems want to reward illegal immigration by giving all these illegals free healthcare, free schooling, free everything at the cost of the American citizens. The policies of the progressive less will bankrupt your country and turn it into a welfare socialist state where only those at the top have any riches. 


...ignoring poverty to seize power, and finding any means necessary to obtain power is wrong.
Well, sort of.  How do you propose convincing the RICH AND POWERFUL to SELF-REGULATE?
I don't know and I recognize the problem but if you kill free-enterprise with limits and constraints you will kill jobs and creativity. 

These rich people also promote jobs and prosperity.  


Does your old book have any clear guidelines for this?  Or does it just say, "pray and ask god".

IMO, your country will go in one of two ways depending on the next election. Either this corruption in the deep state will be purged or your country will reap what it sows and head down the road to socialism and big government where the corrupt bureaucracy pads its pockets at the expense of the rest.
THE DEEP-STATE IS GOING NOWHERE, REGARDLESS OF THE ELECTION, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEEP-STATE.
That may be true, but the only one I feel who has a chance of exposing it is Trump. The deep state is corrupt and it needs to be exposed and eliminated. Criminals need to be put behind bars. 


If it goes that way it is only a matter of time before you will see the judgment of such actions.
Are you kidding me?  This administration has done NOTHING to mitigate corruption.
I am convinced the Obama White House, State Department, FBI, CIA, and to some extent, the Dems are responsible for the corruption. Time will tell unless the Dems continue to do what they are good at doing, covering up.  


Throughout history, eventually, the fate of nations is decided by the evil of its people. There is a measure beyond which God brings judgment.  
I'm sure everything is happening exactly as your hypothetical god intended from the beginning of time.
God permits (permissive will) people to do what they do until they fill up the measurement of sin. Then His wrath for the injustices is experienced.


What a glorious and perfect world has this god wrought.


Yes, it is. What a shame that we have ruined it with our greed and sinful actions. 
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God tolerates our evil actions to a point and no further. Then He judges those actions in some way.
Seriously, if your hypothetical god is so super-smart-and-super-powerful, why bother even making laws in the first place?
For one, they are a teacher to bring us to Christ. We see the injustice of sinful actions. We long for fairness and goodness to prevail, yet where there are subjective beings doing their subjective things, injustice follows. We have a standard to measure injustice against. 


Nobody can interfere with god's plan right?
No, but if God interfered with everything we did we would either be judged or not have the volition to choose (not that we choose what is right without God's Word since we are in rebellion and have a sinful nature too). 


  I mean, it would be impossible to outsmart god right?
True unless you think you can outsmart Someone who is all-knowing. 

  It should be impossible to avoid god's ultimate justice, right?
True. You experience it in one of two ways, either on your own merit or on the merit of Jesus Christ. If you prefer your own then you will suffer the penalty for those wrong actions yourself. 



Good people will get rewarded and evil people will be punished BY gOD.

NO HUMAN ACTION REQUIRED.


Provided you believe you are good and have not violated God's good, just, and perfect standards. If not then you will be separated from God for eternity for what do light and dark, righteousness and evil have in common? The biblical God reveals the wages of sin is death. What kind of death do you think is spoken of, physical, spiritual, or both? 
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Please take your irrational, illogical lack of common sense, biblical nonsense to the religous forum.

It has not philosophical value whatsoever.
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Please take your irrational, illogical lack of common sense, biblical nonsense to the religous forum.

It has not philosophical value whatsoever.

I was asked various questions and I responded. Do not try to censor my freedom of speech. I was not addressing you so you do not have to read any of my posts. Just ignore them and I will ignore your slop. 
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Please take your irrational, illogical lack of common sense "slop" of  biblical nonsense to the religous forum.

It has no philosophical value whatsoever irrespective of your answering someones question or not.  Biblical BS is BS irrespective of all else.

You don get because  you dont want to get it.  Biblical ego not any differrent than intellectual ego that refuses to face and accept rational, logical common sense when presented to them.  Please take a hike to the Biblical  religlous forum with your nonsense.



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Please take your irrational, illogical lack of common sense "slop" of  biblical nonsense to the religous forum.

It has no philosophical value whatsoever irrespective of your answering someones question or not.  Biblical BS is BS irrespective of all else.
The biblical position has a lot to do with Philosophy. Philosophers try to answer the fundamental or ultimate questions of life. Such questions as,
1) What am I?
2) Who am I?
3) How do I know?
4) Why should I care?
5) What happens to me when I die. 

These four or five questions are what worldviews are built upon plus one other fundamental question, Is there a God? The way you answer that one question is the way you look at life as a whole.  


You don get because  you dont want to get it.  Biblical ego not any differrent than intellectual ego that refuses to face and accept rational, logical common sense when presented to them.  Please take a hike to the Biblical  religlous forum with your nonsense.

This is broken English. I am trying to read between the left out words as to your meaning. 

Morality as to being completely subjective and thus shifting and changing or objective and fixed has a lot to do with whether there is a God or not.

If there is no God then why is your subjective view on what is good any better than mine? Good luck with that.  

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If there is no God then why is your subjective view on what is good any better than mine? Good luck with that.
Keep your Biblical nonsense in the Biblical religious forum as that is the only place it belongs.

Biblical non-sense is not philosphical. It is religious mythological non-sense, with a few good morals thrown in as well as some historical info that is sometimes corroborated with other.


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If there is no God then why is your subjective view on what is good any better than mine? Good luck with that.
Keep your Biblical nonsense in the Biblical religious forum as that is the only place it belongs.
You are not my censor. In the discussion on morality, I find an objective, unchanging, all-knowing being as an adequate explanation for morality and I find subjective beings as devoid of explaining morality for the very reasons that what makes your changing views that are based on who knows what any better than my own?   


Biblical non-sense is not philosphical. It is religious mythological non-sense, with a few good morals thrown in as well as some historical info that is sometimes corroborated with other.
Just scan the Philosophy Forum to find out how many others view the God argument as philosophically valid. God is mentioned many times in these threads. You just happen to take umbrage with me for doing so. 
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Read my simple lips/text:

Please keep your Biblical nonsense in the Biblical religious forum as that is the only place it belongs.

Biblical non-sense is not philosophical. It is religious, mythological non-sense, with a few good morals thrown in as well as some historical info that is sometimes corroborated with other such recordings.

#236
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@ebuc
Read my simple lips/text:

Please keep your Biblical nonsense in the Biblical religious forum as that is the only place it belongs.

Biblical non-sense is not philosophical. It is religious, mythological non-sense, with a few good morals thrown in as well as some historical info that is sometimes corroborated with other such recordings.

What a joke. 

Explain what your source of morality is and why your moral good is better than mine. 
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Explain what your source of morality is and why your moral good is better than mine. 
Your and you nosense is the joke so please take your religous mythical nonsense where it belongs.

My source is rational, logical common sense and that is something you avoid like the plague. Sad lack of intellectual integrity :--( Take it out of philosophy cause that is the only righteous thing to do. Sincerely, Ebuc
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Explain what your source of morality is and why your moral good is better than mine. 
Your and you nosense is the joke so please take your religous mythical nonsense where it belongs.

My source is rational, logical common sense and that is something you avoid like the plague. Sad lack of intellectual integrity :--( Take it out of philosophy cause that is the only righteous thing to do. Sincerely, Ebuc

Oh, nice answer! Very in-depth. Remind me to ignore your posts. 
#239
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God? Possibly(?)
Morality? Subjective
Hotel? Trivago
#240
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God? Possibly so?

Morality? Subjective

Hotel? Trivago.