Is morality objective or subjective?

Author: Fallaneze

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@3RU7AL
It would be based on the laws of the land we live in or even international law.
Wait, what?

I thought all laws were supposed to be based on god's laws?

The law of the land of Israel was theocratic, based on God's law. The surrounding nations were not. Israel was under covenant law. Other nations were not. Even Gentile nations understood some things that were right and wrong.

In the NT Paul urges Christians to obey the laws of the land because God has allowed the ruler for a time. Now if that ruler is unjust we are to pray to God for that ruler and against the unjust practice. 

Romans 13
13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. 

Yet Jesus gave Christians further instruction. 

Matthew 5:13-16 (NASB)
Disciples and the World
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Not only this, we are to stand for goodness, not evil.

Romans 12: 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

We are to expose the darkness. How will someone know what is good unless it becomes evident to them through sound reasoning?
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It is a precaution until the trial to keep the person in jail because of the risk of flight. BUT, in the court of law, the person is considered innocent until proven guilty. 
It's pretty hard to be "presumed innocent" if you're brought into the court-room in handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit.

Perfectly innocent people lose their jobs if they can't make bail.
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In the NT Paul urges Christians to obey the laws of the land because God has allowed the ruler for a time. Now if that ruler is unjust we are to pray to God for that ruler and against the unjust practice. 
So why do people protest abortion?

Shouldn't they just pray extra hard?
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@3RU7AL
God's word, a necessary objective and ultimate reference point.
That can be distilled to, "love god and love others"?

It seems a bit imprecise.
What do you think love is? 

1 Corinthians 13 explains the Christian concept sufficiently. 
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@3RU7AL
What is more just than a convicted criminal, guilty of murder, proven beyond doubt, answering with his/her life? A life for a life if an innocent life was maliciously taken?
It just doesn't sound very "pro-life".

AND, a lot of death-row inmates are being exonerated by DNA evidence, so, "proven beyond doubt" seems a little subjective.


It is not up to us individually to take the law into our own hands. Israel's theocratic law was an eye for an eye. The principles were equal justice when maliciousness was intended. So if you maliciously killed an innocent person they no longer have life on earth and you also deprive their loved ones of them. Not only that but their family contributes to their continued existence in prison if they are convicted. What could be given that would be equal?
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@3RU7AL
What is more just than a convicted criminal, guilty of murder, proven beyond doubt, answering with his/her life? A life for a life if an innocent life was maliciously taken?
It just doesn't sound very "pro-life".
Pro-life is a stance against abortion, except when the woman's life is threatened and there is no way to save the unborn (i.e. if the woman dies the unborn will automatically die because it is not viable yet). 

Pro-life is also for life but when someone is guilty of a crime of murder they should be punished, not by the individual but by the governing authorities. 

So I ask, what is equal justice in the case of murder - the taking of innocent life?


AND, a lot of death-row inmates are being exonerated by DNA evidence, so, "proven beyond doubt" seems a little subjective.

That is why the evidence for the death penalty needs to be incontrovertible. 

I am also not saying that an individual should take the law into their own hands. 
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@3RU7AL
It would be based on the laws of the land we live in or even international law.
Wait, what?

I thought all laws were supposed to be based on god's laws?

We both know that is not the case. If it was we would expect justice in all cases. Even so, some of the laws still are based on God's laws, others are not. Abortion is a law that is not. It does not treat the innocent justly, the heart and soul of equal justice. 
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@PressF4Respect
My question was:
Would you say that you would always take the moral high ground on every other moral issue?
Your answer was no. This means that there is something compelling you to go against what you believe to be the moral high ground (your moral compass) more strongly than the moral aspect of the issue itself, in certain cases. I'm asking about what is the thing that makes you go against your moral compass in those cases.

In other words, if you know that one choice is more moral than another (we are dealing with moral issues here), and yet you choose the more immoral choice in certain cases, what is that thing that compels you to do so?
My desires and wants ignore God's good commands and I sin. 
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@3RU7AL
I am not against protecting anyone from violence unless they themselves are threatening or violent themselves. 
So, you're against incarcerating young children and deporting them into dangerous areas?

Yes, but I am also against their parents illegally bringing them into your country so that they will get a pass. The parents are the ones who risk the lives of their offspring. The parents are the ones who put them into the hands of coyotes and endanger their offsprings. Child traffickers look for all kinds of loopholes to enter the USA. Many of these children are used as pawns to gain illegal entry into your country. Thus, the children have to be housed somewhere until their parents can be located. Open borders encourage all kinds of illegalities and ways to circumvent the law.
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My desires and wants ignore God's good commands and I sin. 
What makes you do so? The seven deadly sins? Something else? Please elaborate 

Also, just to clarify, God’s Words = The perfect morality, correct?
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@3RU7AL
But it is not lawful to allow illegal immigrants to enter our countries unlawfully. They should be prosecuted for doing this.
Historically this has been a civil violation, punishable with a reasonable fine, not a criminal charge.
The criminal charge is usually deportation. Obama deported 1,200,000 in his first three years of office and 2.5 to 3 million during his presidency.



The objection comes when Trump decides to do the same, then the double-standard.


Also, these people are not assigned an attorney and even small children are expected to represent themselves in immigration court (which rubber stamp denies 90% of cases).
You are either a country of laws or anything goes. I haven't looked into this aspect but I presume you have? I can only offer conjecture since I have other things I'm working on at the moment. With the sheer numbers of people coming into the country the immigration services would be overwhelmed and the possibility of obtaining a lawyer I think would be reduced. Also, those without parents would necessarily be shipped back to their countries ASAP to reunite. Those whose parents had broken the law would in most cases I imagine suffer the same fate.
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@3RU7AL
But, strangely, the Germans weren't "punished for their hostility to Israel and not yielding to god's commands".

I'm just sayin.
They lost the war but what makes you think that the Jews were still in covenant with God at this time in history? Not only that, Israel as a country did not exist at that time. 


This god of yours seems pretty capricious and tyrannical.  I'm not sure we can rely on it to epitomize perfectly objective morality.
How well do you understand ANE history and the times?


You failed to address the hypocrisy of saying, "the inhabitants of Jericho were evils and god destroyed them" with "but god didn't seem to care about destroying any evil people in recent history".
The Bible is concerned primarily with OT Israel. God chose these people to make Himself known to the world through. God has given His word. It is the means He usually uses to make Himself known today along with believers who point to Him via His word. 


Wholesale slaughter of children seems to be ok in some situations but not in others.
Again, any innocent life God takes He will restore since He is just. But heaven help those who take the life of the innocent child. 


What objective standard does your god use to decide when child slaughter is appropriate and when it isn't?
God does not condone child slaughter by human beings. In the case of Israel and the Promised Land, He commanded that Israel clear the land of the evil inhabitants. If He takes an innocent life He restores it. In the case of His objectivity, He is the standard. The standard is His omniscience combined His perfectly good nature.
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@3RU7AL
You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime. There has to be evidence that a crime has been committed.
I agree.  So, with that in mind, what crime is Hunter Biden accused of??
It is his father that needs investigating of criminal behaviour because of what he said in light of Ukraine. It was a quid pro quo moment. If you do not fire the prosecutor you do not get the one billion in aid. Meanwhile, the prosecutor was investigating Biden's son's company as to corruption. Hunter was getting paid around 50-80,000 for something he knew very little about. In an interview, he said it was probably because of his father he got the job. So, Joe used his political clout not only then but also with China and why did China reward Hunter's company with 1.5 billion? Again, they wanted influence in the Whitehouse. 


You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.
Greg Jarrett identified a number of criminal violations.  


You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.
The crimes have been identified. 
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (15 USC 78dd-1)
Bribery (18 USC 201(b))
Gratuities (18 USC 201(c))
Hobbs Act Extortion (18 USC 1951)


You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.
Ibid from my last reply.


You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.
And again!


You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.

You can't make up the crime and then search for evidence for that crime.



Ibid, ibid.
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@3RU7AL
It is a precaution until the trial to keep the person in jail because of the risk of flight. BUT, in the court of law, the person is considered innocent until proven guilty. 
It's pretty hard to be "presumed innocent" if you're brought into the court-room in handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit.

Perfectly innocent people lose their jobs if they can't make bail.


And yet how just would it be if you presumed the person guilty without hearing their side of the case and you made that judgment on them just based on their outfit or the hand-cuffs? How would that be fair?

That would be discrimination of the person when acquitted if they had lost their job because they were innocent and had situations beyond their control and in which the employer acted unjustly. 
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@3RU7AL
In the NT Paul urges Christians to obey the laws of the land because God has allowed the ruler for a time. Now if that ruler is unjust we are to pray to God for that ruler and against the unjust practice. 
So why do people protest abortion?
People have various reasons. For the Christian who understands that God does not endorse humans killing/murdering innocent beings, we protest because the truth needs to be heard and the most defenceless and helpless need protecting. 



Shouldn't they just pray extra hard?

Why can't we express our godly outrage and disgust too at what is happening and give our reasons why this should not be so?
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@PressF4Respect
My desires and wants ignore God's good commands and I sin. 
What makes you do so? The seven deadly sins? Something else? Please elaborate 
Sometimes I do not put God/Jesus first but myself. 


Also, just to clarify, God’s Words = The perfect morality, correct?

God = the perfect moral being. 

God's word = revelation of some of what is right and wrong and the principles for rightly living by looking to Him and His revelation plus His commands on what not to do. In those commands, we have all the principles for right living. Much of western law was based on biblical laws.   

 
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@3RU7AL
PS. I think this expresses my point on AG Barr better:


This is unprecedented. 

Not only this but I hear the IG report will be a blistering near thousand page report. That is going to uncover a lot of what I believe Democrats continually deny and seem oblivious to. That should be out in the first week of December since Mr. Horowitz is schedule to speak before the Senate on December 11th. If anyone can vote for one of these Democrat presidential runners or supports such a wicked party, IMO, after that they need to examine their belief in justice and fairness, IMO. 

I believe you will find you have been fed a pack of lies for over three years.


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What makes you do so? The seven deadly sins? Something else? Please elaborate 
Sometimes I do not put God/Jesus first but myself. 
1. So God and Jesus are the same entity, right?
2. What specific flaws compel you to do this?

God = the perfect moral being. 
Ok. So whatever this perfect moral being says/does is, definitionally speaking, moral. Correct?

God's word = revelation of some of what is right and wrong and the principles for rightly living by looking to Him and His revelation plus His commands on what not to do. In those commands, we have all the principles for right living. Much of western law was based on biblical laws.   
So, God's word is the basis of morality. Right?

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What makes you do so? The seven deadly sins? Something else? Please elaborate 
Sometimes I do not put God/Jesus first but myself. 
1. So God and Jesus are the same entity, right?
The entity the Christians called God is a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one true God. 

2. What specific flaws compel you to do this?
This very forum is one of those flaws. (^8

I spend way too much time here and not enough time with my wife. 


God = the perfect moral being. 
Ok. So whatever this perfect moral being says/does is, definitionally speaking, moral. Correct?
Yes, we see this in His nature as well as in what He says as revealed in the Bible. 



God's word = revelation of some of what is right and wrong and the principles for rightly living by looking to Him and His revelation plus His commands on what not to do. In those commands, we have all the principles for right living. Much of western law was based on biblical laws.   
So, God's word is the basis of morality. Right?

God is and His word reflects His nature and goodness just like your words can be a reflection of your beliefs and what drives you or what is important to you. 
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The entity the Christians called God is a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one true God. 
Ok, so the God in the NT is the same as the one in the OT, correct?

This very forum is one of those flaws. (^8

I spend way too much time here and not enough time with my wife. 
Fair enough.

Yes, we see this in His nature as well as in what He says as revealed in the Bible. 
Ok. For the sake of argument, I can say that we both agree on this point.

God is and His word reflects His nature and goodness just like your words can be a reflection of your beliefs and what drives you or what is important to you. 
Ok. So we can firmly agree, for the sake of argument, that God's word is the basis of morality.
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The entity the Christians called God is a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the one true God. 
Ok, so the God in the NT is the same as the one in the OT, correct?
True, just a greater revelation. 


This very forum is one of those flaws. (^8

I spend way too much time here and not enough time with my wife. 
Fair enough.

Yes, we see this in His nature as well as in what He says as revealed in the Bible. 
Ok. For the sake of argument, I can say that we both agree on this point.

God is and His word reflects His nature and goodness just like your words can be a reflection of your beliefs and what drives you or what is important to you. 
Ok. So we can firmly agree, for the sake of argument, that God's word is the basis of morality.

True, and His word reveals His nature that we can understand and comprehend it, just not comprehensively of course.
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And does God ever go back on, or change His word?
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Gods word is the basis of morality
But we firmly agree though, that God is a wild assumption.

Therefore morality is also a human assumption.

More or less wild, depending on the subjectivity of the practitioner.

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Israel's theocratic law was an eye for an eye.
Is this what you're advocating?

Whatever happened to "love thine enemies and pray for those who persecute you"?
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Gods word is the basis of morality
But we firmly agree though, that God is a wild assumption.
Let's propose this hypothetical god as an AXIOM.

Even (IFF) the old book is 100% true (THEN) how do we distill a logically coherent code of ethics (objective morality) from it??
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And does God ever go back on, or change His word?
Only apparently.  This hypothetical god is eternal and unchanging, contains all knowledge (omniscient) and all power (omnipotent), and planned everything from the dawn of time, and yet has silly arguments with a regional warlord about whether or not to slaughter entire cities full of people.
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Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
(IFF) this is your primary guiding statement, if this is the foundation of your idea of morality and law (THEN) you're the most radical pacifist, peacenik, tree-hugging, kumbaya singing, doormat hippie I've every met. 

It is not self-seeking?

It keeps no record of wrongs?

I'm not seeing anything in there that would justify killing felons or protesting abortion.
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And does God ever go back on, or change His word?
No, His word is eternal and unchanging.
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Gods word is the basis of morality
But we firmly agree though, that God is a wild assumption.
It is to some.


Therefore morality is also a human assumption.
Again, to some. The question with subjective, relative morality what is good? Who determines it?


More or less wild, depending on the subjectivity of the practitioner.


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@3RU7AL
Israel's theocratic law was an eye for an eye.
Is this what you're advocating?
I'm saying that someone who murders someone else does not receive the same recompense he/she gave without the court system taking their life also. Many times those left behind feel that justice is not equal. Their loved one is no longer alive while the perpetrator of the crime is. 


Whatever happened to "love thine enemies and pray for those who persecute you"?

The principle is still there. We are speaking about justice and whether capital punishment is just.