Anti-Abortion = Anti-Personal-Privacy

Author: 3RU7AL

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@Athias
If the food that I eat is converted into fuel for a mass of cells in my body, then those cells are part of my person
Substantiate how this relates to constituting personhood.
You proposed that personhood is determined by unique DNA.

This DNA standard is impractical.

I am proposing a more practical standard.

Please feel free to modify and or paraphrase and or criticize the logic of this proposal and or propose an entirely new standard of personhood.
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@Athias
Every necessary event that led to the moment of your birth is integral to your existence.
I am not disputing this. However, human development isn't concerned with the plethora of choices and experiences that shapes one's existence. It's concerned with the processes that create, change, and end the human body.
You appear to define "human development" as limited to "sperm meets egg" until "lowered into incinerator" and you seem to be disregarding a number of critical prerequisites.

In order to understand "human development" you must account for all of the factors that contribute to human propagation.

For example, if an alien read your book, "human development" and the book stated, get a human sperm cell and a human egg cell and that makes a human, and then the alien flew off to earth and got a sample of human sperm and human eggs and mixed them together, would they have a human?

Probably not.  They'd need a few more things and slightly more information.
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@3RU7AL
But that's exactly the point.

The cancerous tumor has no legal recourse, no voice, no advocate to protect its existence from being extinguished by the tyrannical human it lives inside.
And what argument does this point serve?

Please explain what you believe are the critical distinctions between the two.

I would say I'm using "determines" as a synonym for "is the sole deciding factor" not "proportional or measurable by a common standard".

(A) (IFF) DNA is the sole deciding factor of human-rights (THEN)...

(B) (IFF) DNA is proportional or measurable by a common standard to human-rights (THEN)...

Pick one, or create your own paraphrase.
So then why are you inferring from my argument that "any creature with 97% DNA matching a human should be granted 97% human rights"?

You proposed that personhood is determined by unique DNA.
No, I didn't. I answered affirmatively to this question of yours:

Are you suggesting that DNA determines personhood? Y/N
I haven't once mentioned unique. I did however mention distinct.

This DNA standard is impractical.

I am proposing a more practical standard.

Please feel free to modify and or paraphrase and or criticize the logic of this proposal and or propose an entirely new standard of personhood.

Your substantiating your biomass standard will suffice.
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@Athias
But that's exactly the point.

The cancerous tumor has no legal recourse, no voice, no advocate to protect its existence from being extinguished by the tyrannical human it lives inside.
And what argument does this point serve?
(IFF) we adopt a DNA standard of personhood (AND) a cancerous tumor grows by making copies of its own distinct DNA code (THEN) the cancerous tumor must be considered a unique and identifiable person with its own right-to-life.
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You appear to define "human development" as limited to "sperm meets egg" until "lowered into incinerator" and you seem to be disregarding a number of critical prerequisites.

In order to understand "human development" you must account for all of the factors that contribute to human propagation.

Appear is synonymous with seem, and seem is not an argument; and I don't disagree with you that understanding the factors contributes to the understanding of human development. But we're not discussing the comprehension of human development; we're discussion its inception. And merely selecting an egg and selecting a sperm is not a part of it.
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) we adopt a DNA standard of personhood (AND) a cancerous tumor grows by making copies of its own distinct DNA code (THEN) the cancerous tumor must be considered a person.
And if we do, how would that undermine my argument that its host bears it no obligation?
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@Athias
I don't disagree with you that understanding the factors contributes to the understanding of human development. But we're not discussing the comprehension of human development; we're discussion its inception. And merely selecting an egg and selecting a sperm is not a part of it.
I'm pretty certain that if you fail to select a viable human egg and a viable human sperm, you will fail to produce a viable blastocyst.

You began as a gleam in a cave-man's eye.
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@Athias
(IFF) we adopt a DNA standard of personhood (AND) a cancerous tumor grows by making copies of its own distinct DNA code (THEN) the cancerous tumor must be considered a person.
And if we do, how would that undermine my argument that its host bears it no obligation?
Your proposal, DNA = personhood = human rights.

(IFF) your cancerous tumor is granted human rights (THEN) it has the right to an attorney.

In the same way, a landlord is not allowed to cut power and water for tenants who fail to pay their rent.
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@3RU7AL
I'm pretty certain that if you fail to select a viable human egg and a viable human sperm, you will fail to produce a viable blastocyst.
No one disputes this. But it's still not part of the inception of human development. Much like boiling an egg, I need the egg, but selecting the egg doesn't mean that I'm actually boiling it.

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@Athias
You proposed that personhood is determined by unique DNA.
No, I didn't. I answered affirmatively to this question of yours:

Are you suggesting that DNA determines personhood? Y/N
Hair-splitting.
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@3RU7AL
Your proposal, DNA = personhood = human rights.

(IFF) your cancerous tumor is granted human rights (THEN) it has the right to an attorney.

In the same way, a landlord is not allowed to cut power and water for tenants who fail to pay their rent.
Now the dispute is "what are human rights"?

If the cancer threatens its host, and it does, then the host can defend itself by effectively ending the threat.
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@Athias
No one disputes this. But it's still not part of the inception of human development. Much like boiling an egg, I need the egg, but selecting the egg doesn't mean that I'm actually boiling it.
I'm talking about STEP #1.

What's STEP #1?

STEP #1, select an egg.  STEP #2, select a pan.  STEP #3, select a stove.  STEP #4, fill pan with water...
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@Athias
(IFF) your cancerous tumor is granted human rights (THEN) it has the right to an attorney.

In the same way, a landlord is not allowed to cut power and water for tenants who fail to pay their rent.
Now the dispute is "what are human rights"?

If the cancer threatens its host, and it does, then the host can defend itself by effectively ending the threat.
Excellent point.  So what would you propose if the example was a benign (non-life-threatening) cancerous tumor?
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@Athias
I haven't once mentioned unique. I did however mention distinct.
Unique DNA code is functionally identical to Distinct DNA code.

More of your pointless hair-splitting.
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@Athias
This DNA standard is impractical.

I am proposing a more practical standard.

Please feel free to modify and or paraphrase and or criticize the logic of this proposal and or propose an entirely new standard of personhood.

Your substantiating your biomass standard will suffice.
Anything living inside my body, and feeding off the nutrients I consume is part of me.

This would include any tumors and or parasites, regardless of how unique (or distinct) their DNA coding is.
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@3RU7AL
I'm talking about STEP #1.

What's STEP #1?

STEP #1, select an egg.  STEP #2, select a pan.  STEP #3, select a stove.  STEP #4, fill pan with water...

I'll indulge this no more.

Excellent point.  So what would you propose if the example was a benign (non-life-threatening) cancerous tumor?
There are no benign cancerous tumors; the tumor is either benign (non-malignant) or cancerous (malignant.) Either way, she can excise it at her discretion.

Unique DNA code is functionally identical to Distinct DNA code.

More of your pointless hair-splitting.
No, it's "functionally identical" in its service as the premise of your rebuttal, which operates on a non sequitur.

Anything living inside my body, and feeding off the nutrients I consume is part of me.

This would include any tumors and or parasites, regardless of how unique (or distinct) their DNA coding is.
Then explain how this rationale creates an obligation to that which is outside your body, not (necessarily) feeding off the nutrients you consume?

Note: you can't qualify unique (i.e. "how unique.") Unique in this context is an absolute state. And this harks back to the distinction between "distinct" and "unique."
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@Athias
Anything living inside my body, and feeding off the nutrients I consume is part of me.

This would include any tumors and or parasites, regardless of how unique (or distinct) their DNA coding is.
Then explain how this rationale creates an obligation to that which is outside your body, not (necessarily) feeding off the nutrients you consume?
When that mass of cells leaves your body and its connection to your consumed nutrients is physically severed, then, at that moment, that, newly independent mass of cells may be granted citizenship (if it meets the necessary prerequisites to qualify for citizenship).

If the former host does not wish to continue feeding the new citizen, then it becomes a ward of the state.
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@3RU7AL
When that mass of cells leaves your body and its connection to your consumed nutrients is physically severed, then, at that moment, that, newly independent mass of cells may be granted citizenship (if it meets the necessary prerequisites to qualify for citizenship).

If the former host does not wish to continue feeding the new citizen, then it becomes a ward of the state.
But why is there an obligation to begin with? Why can't she just leave it there? And if she has a home-birth, does the infant automatically become a citizen once it leaves her body?
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@Athias
But why is there an obligation to begin with?
Human instinct.  Some people have it and some don't.  There is no intrinsic or universal "obligation".

Why can't she just leave it there?
Once the umbilical is cut (and or other direct nutrient connection), depending on the law-of-the-land, that mass of cells may qualify for citizenship (and associated rights) of that land.

And if she has a home-birth, does the infant automatically become a citizen once it leaves her body?
That question wholly depends on the law-of-the-land.
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@3RU7AL
Human instinct.  Some people have it and some don't.  There is no intrinsic or universal "obligation".
Legal obligation?


Once the umbilical is cut (and or other direct nutrient connection), depending on the law-of-the-land, that mass of cells may qualify for citizenship (and associated rights) of that land.
And if it doesn't qualify?

That question wholly depends on the law-of-the-land.

What ought to be the law of the land?
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@Athias
Once the umbilical is cut (and or other direct nutrient connection), depending on the law-of-the-land, that mass of cells may qualify for citizenship (and associated rights) of that land.
And if it doesn't qualify?
Then it is at the mercy of its environment.  Just like any other creature.
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@Athias
Human instinct.  Some people have it and some don't.  There is no intrinsic or universal "obligation".
Legal obligation?
Perhaps.  Based on the-law-of-the-land.
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@Athias
That question wholly depends on the law-of-the-land.
What ought to be the law of the land?
Law is codified mob-rule.
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@3RU7AL
Then it is at the mercy of its environment.  Just like any other creature.
So then, it would follow that its parent bears it no legal obligation to make sure its abandoned at a sanctioned public institution even if it's an infant. If the infant is not a legal citizen, no one bears it an obligation. Now, let's scrutinize the reason legal citizen ship does create an obligation to the infant's sustenance, whether it be maintained by its parent or some other custodian (medical, religious, public official.) Is it simply "that's the law" or is there some utility (political/economic) it serves?

Law is codified mob-rule.
That's an apt description of democracy (and to some extent law in and of itself.) But the question solicits a normative response. What ought to be the mode of interaction between individuals?

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@Athias
What ought to be the mode of interaction between individuals?
Since humans are not created equal their will exist various modes of interaction, dependent on the individual and the circumstances they find themselves in.

A human law seeks to equalize any disparity of humans non-equality and in as many sets of circumstances { scenarios } as can be mathematically accounted for with the technology available to them at that time.

Those laws can be a dictator or any set of human created laws.
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@ebuc
Since humans are not created equal their will exist various modes of interaction, dependent on the individual and the circumstances they find themselves in.

A human law seeks to equalize any disparity of humans non-equality and in as many sets of circumstances { scenarios } as can be mathematically accounted for with the technology available to them at that time.

Those laws can be a dictator or any set of human created laws.

I was really asking the question in the context of this subject, but I'll bite: why is equality the end sought by law if as you say, humans are not created equal?
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@Athias
Is it simply "that's the law" or is there some utility (political/economic) it serves?
Most humans have parental instincts and since the law is written as a consensus of social norms (mob rule), this is part of the law.

Protecting infants does have some utility, since a society cannot survive without infants, and furthermore, orphans often make good soldiers.
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I was really asking the question in the context of this subject, but I'll bite: why is equality the end sought by law if as you say, humans are not created equal?
1} that humans are not created equal, is an obvious fact ergo truth,

2} equality via law is sought after because of humans desire for fairness aka fair play, via philosophical considerations of morality, by most humans, barring those humans who have no access to their empathetic centers of their brain,

3} I was not considering the thread topic with my response, however, privacy is another human desire and/or feeling of security as in to not be or feel vulnerable to another humans or non-human animals unknown intent.
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@3RU7AL
Most humans have parental instincts and since the law is written as a consensus of social norms (mob rule), this is part of the law.

Protecting infants does have some utility, since a society cannot survive without infants, and furthermore, orphans often make good soldiers.

I'll phrase it this way: do you believe maintaining the position that a woman's privacy is paramount, even to the extent of relinquishing/shirking any responsibility to the sustenance she may bear her unborn child, without which said unborn child/fetus/embryo/zygote etc. would likely die,, is (logically/philosophically/ethically) consistent with maintaining the position that she is bound to assume responsibility for a born child/infant--privacy be damned--until she can transfer her obligations to an institution/individual who would relieve her of her duty to the infant as its parent?
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@ebuc
Why is equality (via law) "fair"?