The Solution To Poverty?

Author: ethang5

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#61
ethang5
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@Buddamoose
Because even fiat currencies are still tied, even if indirectly, to a "basket" of goods and services. 
I know. I did not bring up fiat money, and what I propose is not fiat money. I was the 
who said that what I propose was different because fiat money is still pegged to a country's wealth.

This is similar to your Bitcoin example. Where botcoin is tied to national currency standards, which are then tied in a few more steps to the goods and services being produced. 
What does your "tied" mean? It cannot mean the same as "pegged" because that would mean that some guy can come up with his own money and tap into the country's sovereign wealth without the consent of the govt. or people. 

Bitcoin has value and is not pegged to, or representative of, any physical wealth whatsoever.

No goods and services, no currency value. 
This is clearly not always true. Value can be based on perception only.
#62
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@ethang5
The tricky part is, you are right that there is a subjective element to value and that if we could feasibly get people to still percieve that injected money has the same value, we'd be in the clear. 

But uh, how would we accomplish that? These things are a part of "the invisible hand" they result from how people naturally operate in regards to economics. As was pointed out earlier, if one got 1 million dollars overnight, it would become much harder to incentivize one to sell any goods or services they have for the same price as previous, especially if they knew, as they would, that everyone else just got 1millon also, woops, looks like inflation just came barging through the wall like the kool-aid mascot. 😂

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#63
ethang5
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@Buddamoose
Why do you think deflation(price drops) happens when currency supply either remains static or is removed from circulation? 
Because that currency is pegged to the country's wealth. That is not what I'm talking about. Sorry, I don't know how much more plainly I can say it.

Bitcoin has not caused increases in demand, or death spirals. But I may have to accept that I cannot make you think outside the box of econ 101.
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This is clearly not always true. Value can be based on perception only

But this is the exception, not the general rule. Art would be an area that is highly subjective as to value. But for most everything else, the opposite is true. 
#65
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Bitcoin has not caused increases in demand, or death spirals.

Because bitcoin is still tied to currencies. Last i checked, you purchase Bitcoin with national currencies, and can exchange it back for those same national currencies. 

"Tied", as in linked, its value is still determined by the national currency it can be exchanged for. That national currency is determined in part by the nations ability to cover the total amount of currency in circulation, which js determined by tax revenues, which is determined by percentage of GDP, which is a representative amount of goods and services. 

"Thinking outside the box"

Incorporating your idea and having it work would require a total abandonment of the basic operatives of economics. If you are already advocating for that which would require that, why stop short at trying to operate as if that system hasn't been fundamentally altered. Why not just advocate for an abandonment of these fundamental principles and the system they are the foundation of(capitalism), and say we should just take away all money and people are just given what they need to survive? 

That would solve poverty too, without requiring operating as if X is true when X is false. X being, that said currency still retains the same value as before, after 350 trillion is injected into the economy. 


#66
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Sounds like you are trying to dance around that you want to have your cake(profit incentive of capitalism which equals innovation and production) and eat it too(do without the necessary negative aspects therein). 

Thats not exactly thinking outside the box, thats trying to remove the foundation holding the box up while staying inside of it, and acting like the box isnt gonna consequentially cave in on oneself 🤔

#67
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There isnt some secret kabal dictating these effects, these are natural effects that are general rules of how people operate economically. Its not like we can snap our fingers and *poof* people no longer will operate this way. And assuming we can accomplish that, it would undoubtedly require severely unethical methods by which to ensure its successful implementation. Basically, you couldn't maintain free market capitalism, and incorporate your plan and its necessity to fundamentally alter economic behavior in a relatively free market, which is just an extension of the behavior of the free people therein. And if you do away with one, you necessarily do away with the other. 🤔
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@ethang5

What exactly would be the economic reasons this would not work?


Dollar looses all value and becomes moot.  Happens to many currencies over the years. Monetary values { economics }, like human laws, comes and goes.

Money is just one avenue for the motivations of the spirit  ergo power and control via money motivates the spirit.

Stuff { standard of living } via money motivates the spirit.

Remove the money factor from Earth and what is motivating factors of humans?

Clean air, water food, sex and shelter. We still have power/control but without money the must used another avenue.

Violence has been a common avenue in the past to gain control/power.

Spirit-of-intent is what motivates humans. A desire to feel competent at getting air, water, food, sex and shelter.

Humans want to feel competent at whatever it is they do.  Remove money and violence then we are left to spirit-of-intent as to what motivates the human. 




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@Buddamoose
This is misrepresentative of fiat currencies. These currencies are still tied to commodities, but rather than it being a single commodity, its tied to the sovereign nations GDP, or the value of goods and services produced in a given year, and the ability of the sovereign state to pay its debts to a degree. The fiat currencies are still linked to a "basket of goods and services", but rather than being a single good such as gold, or two such as gold and silver, everything is included in the basket. 

It was not a misrepresentation. The way fiat currency is linked to a basket of commodities is through supply and demand, not through government guaranteeing that X dollars are exchangeable for Y amount of commodities. A car is worth as many dollars as people agree it's worth. Yes, GDP affects the market, but through supply and demand, not through government guarantee of some fixed value. I would not call that "tied" in the same way as currency used to be tied to gold.  





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@ethang5
What I propose is not tied to the countries wealth in ANY way. How much sovereign wealth the country has makes no difference to it's value.
Okay, I'll simplify.

A country's wealth is the value of goods and services it produces.

How can something be exchangeable for some of those goods and services, yet not be tied to them in any way?

#71
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@ethang5
We have inflation because we tie money to the country's total wealth. We don't have to.
In your opinion, what does money represent? 

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#72
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@Stronn
How can something be exchangeable for some of those goods and services, yet not be tied to them in any way?
If both parties feel that thing has value. So a Chinese girl may "sell" her virginity for dollars. How is her virginity "tied" to the wealth of America? It isn't. People (some men) just believe it has value.

And this is the point on which my argument is understood. We have economic laws, but they are not like the laws of physics. They do not describe how things are, but how things can be. They are made by man and are not irrefutable. Physical laws are discovered, not decreed.

But if you are unable to see that, of course you will treat economic "laws" as if they are phsycal laws, and few breaking them as you would view breaking physical laws.

Sometimes education itself can be a roadblock to more education.
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#73
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@Smithereens
In your opinion, what does money represent? 
It can represent all the wealth of a group like a country or countries, it can represent a single thing like gold, or fish, on a tiny island nation, or it could represent itself, as in, the value it "represents" rests within the "money" itself. As in the days of gold coins.

Now we have digital money that represent nothing at all except what people THINK. It has no inherent value. It is not divisional units of any wealth anywhere. Tomorrow it could be worthless based solely on what people think.

Inflation is real the way a human perception is real. It is real only because we think its real. It is not real the same way gravity is real.

This fact allows me to see that we are not as restricted by economic "laws" as most believe we are.

Though the title of the thread is ending poverty, that is not aim. Poverty itself is just like inflation, it exists only in the human mind. It does not need to exist. It isn't a physical law.

#74
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@ethang5
Just two more questions then, what is trade? and what is currency? 

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@Smithereens
I'll accept the dictionary's definition with the understanding that words change meaning in context changes.
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@ethang5
If both parties feel that thing has value. So a Chinese girl may "sell" her virginity for dollars. How is her virginity "tied" to the wealth of America? It isn't. People (some men) just believe it has value.
Sure it is. The girl's virginity is tied to the wealth of America by her and the man's act of placing a dollar value on it . They are both agreeing that her virginity is worth X dollars of goods and services.

And this is the point on which my argument is understood. We have economic laws, but they are not like the laws of physics. They do not describe how things are, but how things can be. They are made by man and are not irrefutable. Physical laws are discovered, not decreed.
Economic laws are descriptions of human behavior and are discovered empirically just like other physical laws. You are right that they are not immutable like laws of physics. They describe human behavior, and human behavior can, in principle, change. But do you really want to advocate for a policy that assumes human nature will change? That is what it would take for economic laws to cease operating. Counting on human nature changing is a horrible reason to advocate for a policy. 

But if you are unable to see that, of course you will treat economic "laws" as if they are phsycal laws, and few breaking them as you would view breaking physical laws.
I see economic laws as reflection of human nature. Breaking them requires human nature to change. History is rife with economic systems that look good in theory, but do not take human nature into account. Communism, for instance.
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#77
ethang5
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The girl's virginity is tied to the wealth of America by her and the man's act of placing a dollar value on it . 
That is not what "tied to" means.

They are both agreeing that her virginity is worth X dollars of goods and services.
That doesn't mean her virginity becomes part of the wealth of America. It doesn't increase the supply of virginity or reduce the demand for virgins.

Economic laws are descriptions of human behavior...
That definition of "Economic Law" is narrow enough to be incorrect.

But do you really want to advocate for a policy that assumes human nature will change? 
You are confusing your misunderstanding with my argument.

That is what it would take for economic laws to cease operating. 
Economic laws would not cease to operate, you just  incorrectly think economic laws are like physical laws.

I see economic laws as reflection of human nature. 
You are incorrect. Tell me, Is it an economic law that increasing the price of a product will cause a fall in demand?

Human nature cannot be summed up in a neat little law, and we have suffered through economic depressions and collapses thinking that it could.

Breaking them requires human nature to change.
Untrue. Breaking them does nothing to human nature. You think this only because you have "tied" them together in your mind. They do not describe how things are, but how things can be. 

We will have to agree to disagree.
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@ethang5
We will have to agree to disagree.
Ethang has it correct.  Currency is only real value as long as people believe it has a value.

Trade did not begin with a virtual { not real } 'currency', It began with I trade you this pig for those wheels. Or cow for the boat.

Trading 'what-has-a-value for another set of what-has-a-value. 

Meat had a great value to sustain a families nutritional needs for many days. Trading live cattle becomes impractical over long distances in olden days, so sea-peoples found something else peoples found to have value and could be transported long distances on a ship. Metal, pottery, clothing etc.

Metal was then shaped into symbolic coins to reflect ow a peoples, or ruler,  perceived a nation/state sovereignty.

This is rough interpretation of the way Fuller presents the origin of money/currency.







#79
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If money could fix poverty, I have a feeling that the problem would have been solved by now.



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#80
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@Mopac
Actually the purpose of my excercise is to demonstrate that inflation is imaginary. If you have both systems going, normal money and this digital IOU's, it becomes clear that inflation need not be, because money need not be tied to anything.

Bitcoin could do this, but was limited because the authorities would have shut it down had it tried to.

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@ethang5
Yet even if the medium was electronic, people can still spend themselves into poverty or even at the expense of everything else, trade these currencies in for drugs, hookers, scratch offs, a twinkie fort, etc. Then they are back at being in poverty again.

There is more that goes into poverty than simply money, or even an education. The smartest person in the world who has everything can throw it all away and find themselves in the alley simply by making their life about satisfying an insatiable addiction.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but compassion for those who live in poverty. I do my best to help a lot of them. My heart in particular goes out to the homeless. But as someone who is very familiar with this sort of thing, I know better than to think money and material things can override the strong influences of a culture of self destruction.

One od the hardest things for me to do as a youth was to walk away from a culture of self destruction. People who you care for who are still trapped in that will look at you like a traitor to leave that culture. It is even easy to believe. It is not easy to walk away from an old life in order to doo what is right.

#82
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Wealth pulled from thin air creates inflation and massive debt for future generations. worthless money = Weimar Republic. Aint nothing free in this world. Someone always pays for what you think is free.

#83
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@ethang5
The girl's virginity is tied to the wealth of America by her and the man's act of placing a dollar value on it . 
That is not what "tied to" means.
If that is not what you mean by "tied to," then I have no idea what you mean, because that is the only way that money is tied to wealth: by people's agreement that certain goods and services are worth certain units of currency. If you mean something different, you have yet to define it. I have no idea how your IOU's can be exchangeable for wealth but not tied to it.

That doesn't mean her virginity becomes part of the wealth of America. It doesn't increase the supply of virginity or reduce the demand for virgins.
I never said it becomes part of the wealth of America. But by trading it for dollars, she is in essence trading it for part of the wealth of America. In that way it is tied to the wealth of America. In fact, if it is purchased by an American, it becomes part of the American trade deficit with China.

You are incorrect. Tell me, Is it an economic law that increasing the price of a product will cause a fall in demand?
Sure. All other things being equal, higher price results in less quantity being demanded.

Human nature cannot be summed up in a neat little law, and we have suffered through economic depressions and collapses thinking that it could.
I'm not saying that economic laws are simple, only that they exist. And there are other factors besides economics that play a role in people's behavior. But if you think the large-scale effect of introducing IOU'`s with the value of 10 times the current money supply cannot be predicted with some accuracy by economic theory, then you are mistaken.

Untrue. Breaking them does nothing to human nature. You think this only because you have "tied" them together in your mind. They do not describe how things are, but how things can be. 

So if supply and demand stopped working, that would not be a reflection of a fundamental change in human nature.

#84
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@ethang5
Let's do it.

Scrap all welfare and food stamp programs.

Have a one day course (or even print a booklet) that comes with the money - instructions how to invest safely and buy smart. Tell the receivers the ball is in their hands.

People who are dumb will lose their million dollars and end up in poverty, tough shit, better luck next life.

People who aren't dumb will invest and live off the returns, or something of the sort.

/thread
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#85
ethang5
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@Stronn
That is not what "tied to" means.
If that is not what you mean by "tied to," then I have no idea what you mean,
I've been trying to tell you that for several posts now. I do not wish to be rude but I can't keep addressing your inability to understand.

...because that is the only way that money is tied to wealth
No, it isn't the only way. But we are talking about money NOT tied to wealth.

If you mean something different, you have yet to define it.
You just don't know what "tied to" means. Here it means "represents". If, for example, the wealth of america is 100 units, (GDP) and the govt issues 50 one dollar notes, each note will  represents 2 units of that wealth. If the govt issues 50 more one dollar notes, the money depreciates because each dollar will now be worth only 1 unit of that wealth. This is all true, but true only because those dollars represent fixed wealth. If the country was to increase it's wealth (GDP), to say 200 units, those 100 dollars would again appreciate to represent 2 units of that wealth again.

That.is.not.what.I'm.talking.about.

Is it an economic law that increasing the price of a product will cause a fall in demand?
Sure. All other things being equal, higher price results in less quantity being demanded.
No. Not for some things. Does this mean the law is broken or that the law isn't a neat little bow all either black or white?

I'm not saying that economic laws are simple, only that they exist. 
You are saying human nature is simple. We agree that economic law exists. You just apply it to things it doesn't apply to.

And there are other factors besides economics that play a role in people's behavior. 
Thank you!

But if you think the large-scale effect of introducing IOU'`s with the value of 10 times the current money supply cannot be predicted with some accuracy by economic theory, then you are mistaken.
I do not think it cannot be predicted with some accuracy, but I know economic theory has to be applied correctly, and I know economic theories are not physical laws.

So if supply and demand stopped working, that would not be a reflection of a fundamental change in human nature.
Why would supply and demand stop working? Sorry, I think we've reached an impasse. I think I'll thank you for a hearty and civil discussion and bow out.
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#86
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@sadolite
@Mister_Man
Both of you are correct. But you are talking about doing exactly the same thing as we are doing now, only with the country's wealth distributed evenly among its citizens.

That.is.not.what.I'm.talking.about.

Aint nothing free in this world. Someone always pays for what you think is free.
So true. But if I gave you 80 IOU's for your goat, nether the IOU's or the goat were "free". All we did was shuffle value around. You still have a goat, only now in the form of 80 IOU's and I still have 80 IOU's, only now in the form of a goat. No freebies ware given or taken.

Scrap all welfare and food stamp programs.
In my scenario, it is imperative that we do not disturb the existing financial structure. We do not scrap welfare, we do not make the million dollar IOU represent any of the country's wealth.
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@ethang5
...we do not make the million dollar IOU represent any of the country's wealth.
So no federal reserve, I'm on board with that.

In my scenario, it is imperative that we do not disturb the existing financial structure.
Why would we keep welfare if we're distirbuting $350m to everyone evenly? Isn't this a kind of replacement? What good would the money do if people can just continue to live off the government and not do shit? Giving them one lump sum of money will at least light a fire under their ass to do something productive.
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#88
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@Mister_Man
Read through the thread, this is not an exercise to remedy poverty. As you implied, we will always have poor people with us.
#89
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@ethang5
Read through the thread
Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine

#90
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Trickle out economy has brought most of humanity to higher standards-of-living.

The problems are;

1} 6 billion plus people, via,

2} non-sustainable energy sources for power production,

3} abusive standards-of-living correlated to those non-sustaible fossil fuels,

4}  a divided humanity rather than the more moral, spiritual and unified minded, one-for-all and all-for-one mentality.

The signs of a dying sustainable ecology are becoming more visible every year. 

Bucky Fuller envision a World Game to make. Most recetnly that is operating system EARTH