POOR = BAD

Author: 3RU7AL

Posts

Total: 99
#91
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
I do not recall citing youtube videos nor making a serious counterargument against anything you have said. In fact I don't recall even reading or responding to anything you have said.
I'm not inclined to engage duplicity. Either own your statements or don't; it's of no consequence either way.

Topic's author
#92
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
Do you have a reference for these microchip companies violating human rights. 
Remember when you said, 

So what's truly at fault here? The labor laws of the United States or the hiring practices of the microchip companies?
You've already tacitly admitted that you believe USA labor laws are too protective of workers. [LINK]

No, you argued that the rich make their fortunes off the backs of the poor, and I have given you at least three examples where that is not the case.
"the rich making money on the backs of the rich" sounds good if you're myopic.

Who mines the jewels and ore that make the jewelry you wear and the computer you use and the car you drive?

Who grows and gathers the coffee and bananas and chocolate that you eat?

Who produces the shoes and clothes that you wear?

I'm pretty sure it's not NBA all-stars.
#93
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
You've already tacitly admitted that you believe USA labor laws are too protective of workers.


Most workers can join unions, but this right is restricted by the Trade Unions Act (TUA) and the Industrial Relations Act (IRA), as well as by other laws limiting the freedom of association. The right to strike is so severely limited that stringent that striking is effectively all but possible. Private-sector workers are allowed to engage in collective bargaining. Malaysia’s minimum wages policy is decided under the National Wages Consultative Council Act 2011 (Act 732). Forced labour is illegal, but occurs, with many women and children essentially being forced to work in households, and many of them suffering abuse. Children under 14 are not allowed to work but some exceptions are permitted. The Employment Act limits working hours and imposes other restrictions, but they are not enforced strictly. The US Department of Labor's List of Goods Produced by Child Labor or Forced Labor indicates that instances of child labour and forced labour have been observed in the electronics and the textile industries as well as in the production of palm oil. Many foreign employees work under unfair and abusive conditions, with employers withholding pay and confiscating passports. There is an Occupational Safety and Health Act, but workers who walk out of dangerous workplaces are subject to dismissal.[12]

Please point out where in this reference does it state that the microchip industry (not simply electronics) is responsible for violations of human rights.

And I would never suggest that labor laws "protect" because they don't. They stifle employment. There are lot of risks associated with many employments, yet with those professions the employee is allowed discretion in whether he takes those risks rather than having the gravity of said risks be arbitrarily evaluated by an outside governing body.

"the rich making money on the backs of the rich" sounds good if you're myopic.
Irrelevant. It's not about how it sounds or looks. It's about "what is?" And you have yet to demonstrate anything which informs the effects you speak of other than Marxist dogma.

Who mines the jewels and ore that make the jewelry you wear and the computer you use and the car you drive?
I'd simply ask: who signs their checks? Is the laborer entitled to anything more than what was agreed upon in terms of his or her labor contract? Second, are you asserting that labor is of primary significance in producing profit? It's not. Generating commerce is. And this could be done with labor, capital, advertising, or just the state of being. The problem with the labor theory of value is that it ignores that value is subjective. If I'm in the market for a computer, what use is it if you hand me a chunk of jewels and ore? What about the man who designs the computer? The man who builds the computer? The man who create the machines that build computers? The men who advertise the brands making the information readily available? The web designer who creates the website where the information is hosted? None of this has anything to do with generating commerce (and profit?) Only the initial labor in the supply chain?

And try out this thought experiment: how much do you owe to the person who taught you that 1+1=2? Was your career built on their back?

I'm pretty sure it's not NBA all-stars.
Yet the NBA is a billion dollar industry. Is it built on the backs of those who work the concession stands?
#94
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Athias
So what is society?

And how is it supposed to function?

What would the fat cats do if there was no one to wipe their arses for them?

And who would buy all the crap, that no one really needs?

You have to protect those at the bottom, otherwise fuck all, would get done.
#95
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@zedvictor4
So what is society?
My answer from another thread:

A society is a circuit of specialized individuals who trade resources (whether it be property, skills, or even company) in order to bring about a desired condition in which they believe they ought to live.

And how is it supposed to function?
It is to operate on individualist principles, where sovereign individual rights are paramount. Everything is privatized including arbitration and mediation over tort and other disputes as well as security. "Public" entities would consist of only volunteers.

What would the fat cats do if there was no one to wipe their arses for them?
Wipe it themselves. Then again, I don't know how one would replace the lucrative and fulfilling career of "wiping a fat cat's arse."

And who would buy all the crap, that no one really needs?
Well... they would. Isn't there a talking point against the rich claiming that they have more money than they "need?" Would it not stand to reason that a bulk of their expenditures are "unnecessary"?

You have to protect those at the bottom, otherwise fuck all, would get done.
Or politicians can stop exploiting poverty for votes? Perhaps those with the most to lose aren't the crony corporatists but the snake oil salesman (crony politicians) whose careers are built on making empty promises? Maybe they even rely on poverty?
#96
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,074
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Athias
Yes Social structure and order relies on disparity. All ideological systems are inevitably the same.

Though poverty is simply oppression and some systems are more oppressive than others.

And I'm not sure where you get your definition of society from.

And we elect representatives and spend the next four years trying to knock them down. Bizarre!

Though for the record, I never vote. But that's another debate.
#97
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Athias
Do you have a reference for these microchip companies violating human rights.
I saw program where the show where chinese comanoies placed nets outside under windows to prevent these young workers from committing sucide after working 7 days a week 16 hours a day to assumblin Apple products.

That is just one example.  You really are underinformed aka ignorant.
#98
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@zedvictor4
Yes Social structure and order relies on disparity.
I wouldn't say "rely." All social structures and orders are inevitably disparate.

All ideological systems are inevitably the same.
Not at all.

Though poverty is simply oppression and some systems are more oppressive than others.
Please explain.

And I'm not sure where you get your definition of society from.
It's not a definition. I'm not arguing over semantics.

And we elect representatives and spend the next four years trying to knock them down. Bizarre!
Not at all. Most of the electorate idealize, sometimes idolize, these politicians until the delusion ends and it's realized that to beholden these politicians to the promises, which either can't or won't be fulfilled, is a fool's errand. Watching the political environment is like watching WWE; it can provide some entertaining pageantry, but ultimately, it's of little substance.


#99
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@ebuc
I saw program where the show where chinese comanoies placed nets outside under windows to prevent these young workers from committing sucide after working 7 days a week 16 hours a day to assumblin Apple products.

That is just one example.  You really are underinformed aka ignorant.

18 of 450,000 workers attempted suicide, and 14 were successful. That's .004%. The late Steve Jobbs correctly pointed out that this reflected the national statistic. Inform me, why did the other 449, 982 workers not attempt suicide? Where in this program you saw did they control for other factors which may have influenced the suicides (personal issues, family environment, medical issues, etc.?) Since when is it a violation of human rights to be publicly berated by one's boss or to work 16 hour days? Are they coerced into working?