Author: 3RU7AL

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Discipulus_Didicit
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@3RU7AL
If I could prove to you beyond a doubt that this idea is socialistic but I could not prove that it was a good or bad idea then would you say that it must be a bad idea because of that despite all the reasons you have given for thinking it is a good idea?

I am not saying that I can do this. This is purely a hypothetical question.
Discipulus_Didicit
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If I could prove to you beyond a doubt that this idea is socialistic but I could not prove that it was a good or bad idea then would you say that it must be a bad idea because of that despite all the reasons you have given for thinking it is a good idea?

I am not saying that I can do this. This is purely a hypothetical question.

TheRealNihilist
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why would you want people to equate socialist policies to socialism?
I want people to call things what they are. That is my reason. This would be for both of us understanding what we are saying and others reading.

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@3RU7AL
Try this, [LINK]
Do you think my most recent post to pirates was sufficient? 

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@TheRealNihilist
You told me the effect it has on people.
Tell what occurs during taxes and how they are used.
You either hand over your money, or your wealth is seized, and/or you face some sort of threatening punishment.
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Are you an anarchist?
No

3RU7AL
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@bmdrocks21
You are assuming no one else will choose to send their kid to the public school.
Not true.  Public schools will just get smaller (neighborhood based) and have to work more efficiently.

There will still be kids that go there because the local private schools couldn't accommodate them until more schools are built.
Ok, I don't see the "problem".

They would just risk losing funding, so they would actually have to improve the quality of their school rather than expect government checks for being the only option for the poor.
Is this supposed to be an objection to my proposal of allowing parents to cash their own vouchers?

Part of the whole problem is that it is nearly impossible to Quantify "school improvement".  Did Columbine have decent standardized test scores? [LINK]

Well, the ADA added more competition for the handicap market, problem solved :P
A competitive free market isn't an ideal solution for necessities.
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@Snoopy
You either hand over your money, or your wealth is seized, and/or you face some sort of threatening punishment.
I'll tell you. People are giving a portion of their money to the government. The government uses that money in the hopes of what people need. 

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@TheRealNihilist
I would call that charity.  Taxes are imposed upon people.
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@Snoopy
I would call that charity.  Taxes are imposed upon people.
So people should have the option of not being taxed even though the government resides over the land?

3RU7AL
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Okay I think the idea in the OP isn't a good idea...
Please elaborate.
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@3RU7AL
How do any of these proposals help the current problem of 70% of minority children growing up without a father in the home?
3RU7AL
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@bmdrocks21
For you first message, no we don't have any prerequisites for having kids. We absolutely should. If you are a single, financially unstable, or are a drug user, you should not have kids. 
Please explain your proposed "solution" to this "problem".

I have issues with our current welfare system in which people on welfare can, in most states, continue having kids and taking more from the taxpayer. That is disgusting.
Please explain your proposed "solution" to this "problem".

All that will likely happen is drug addicts have kids so they can buy more drugs, then will send their kid to the cheapest school so they can pocket the money.
Isn't that called "free market competition"?

How is this scenario "worse" than the existing reality?

Having kids should not be a way to make money from the government.
Clearly stated premise:

The dissolution of the core family unit and the associated break-down of social trust is a fundamental contributor to crime.

Please agree or disagree.

How about we go with the cheaper option: vouchers.
Is "cheaper" really your primary focus?

Most private schools are cheaper per student that public schools. Giving kids a better, cheaper education is a better idea than giving parents a monetary incentive to have more children.
Do you believe that giving parents the opportunity to spend more time with their children and neighbors is more important than grinding out human calculators?

+proFAMILY
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
How do any of these proposals help the current problem of 70% of minority children growing up without a father in the home?
Clearly stated premise:

The dissolution of the core family unit and the associated break-down of social trust is a fundamental contributor to crime.

Please agree or disagree.
Discipulus_Didicit
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@3RU7AL
Please elaborate.

Nah, the only reason I dropped a comment in the first place was to point out what I perceived as a flawed thought process. The idea itself doesn't really grab my attention that much, I just happen to disagree with it.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If I could prove to you beyond a doubt that this idea is socialistic but I could not prove that it was a good or bad idea then would you say that it must be a bad idea because of that despite all the reasons you have given for thinking it is a good idea?
#1 "Socialism" is Qualia (OPINION).

#2 I currently have no way of knowing if your opinion on "what is socialism" has anything at all to do with whether or not you believe Fix-US is a "good" idea.

Please elaborate.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'm not so ridged that my mind couldn't be changed or that I couldn't be persuaded.  It's typically not easy to do but it does and has happened.
The public school system was created by a few in government AFAIK which was before socialism was a theory.  It was not created by democracy or the "workers" best I can tell.

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@3RU7AL
Of course, I agree, 70% of kids growing up without a father is a huge factor of the break down of the core family unit which has been shown to increase the chances of those kids dropping out of school and growing up to become criminals.


Then you posited:

The question is, will the children themselves, the parents, and society as a whole be BETTER SERVED, if the parents had the option to get that same money directly? ($20,000 per child)

This is almost the same conversation I had with Imabench in another thread before he dropped the discussion. People have impulses and vices, there's no getting around it. If a person knows they can get 20,000 per child per year from the government to do as they will, it will increase the number of broken homes, not decrease them as parents will have a financial incentive to have kids, but no incentive to actually take care of them beyond the bare minimum CPS standards. It's the same deal with the broken Flores law at the border. If an illegal immigrant knows he can be released into the country after 20 days by bringing a child with him/her...it will increase the number of kids coming illegally, not decrease the number of kids, many of them who end up raped or dead. Our broken laws give illegals incentives to illegally bring kids to the border to cash in on free access to the USA.

The dissolution of the core family unit and the associated break-down of social trust is a fundamental contributor to crime.
...so if this is an issue you want to see addressed, keeping the family together should be your number one goal and all incentives should be toward that goal for the welfare of the child and the welfare of society on the whole.

Perhaps if you put in a requirement that this money can only be given to 2 parent families (doesn't have to be heterosexual families), then MAYBE I can get on board.

Discipulus_Didicit
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@3RU7AL
I currently have no way of knowing if your opinion on "what is socialism" has anything at all to do with whether or not you believe Fix-US is a "good" idea.

My opinion about socialism has nothing to do with my opinion on Fix-Us. The fact that I disagree with both socialism and Fix-Us is a coincidence. In other words, I disagree with Fix-Us for reasons that are more complex than "It socialism and socialism bad"

I hope that answers your question. I am genuinely interested in hearing your answer to my hypothetical, will you please respond to it?
Discipulus_Didicit
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I'm not so ridged that my mind couldn't be changed or that I couldn't be persuaded.  It's typically not easy to do but it does and has happened.

I am not interested in changing your mind about socialism or Fix-Us, I am just curious about whether your opinion on the later would be changed merely because it was associated with the former (hypothetically).

Again I stress this is a hypothetical question but giving an honest answer would provide insight into your psyche so I am interested in hearing an answer.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Please speak up if you disagree.
I disagree. Break down of social trust and the dissolution of the family unit is not a fundamental contributor to crime. You must be aware of that for which can control; hence, these factors are often cited as factors which correlate to criminal activity, not cause it.

The average American school gets about $20,000.00 per year per-child.

Conservatives have been pressing for a while now to get that per-child funding converted to a voucher, ostensibly to fund private (often religious) charter schools. They (post-hoc) rationalize this as a "free-market solution".

This seems problematic on its face for a number of reasons, separation of church and state for one, but more significantly because these private schools are not required to have the same oversight as public schools and are not required to make the same accommodations for students with special needs.

However, imagine for a moment that instead of handing these vouchers to private for-profit institutions, the parents had the option to CASH IT IN THEMSELVES.

Imagine how many mothers and fathers could stop working long hours to make ends-meet and could instead spend more time with their kids.

Financial stress is a major contributing factor for divorce and marital strife which both have demonstrable negative, often life-long effects on children (contributing to anti-social behavior, depression, suicide and criminality behavior).

If everyone had the option to get a supplemental income of $60,000.00 per year to home-school their 3 children, don't you think they'd jump at the chance?
You're ignoring one fact: this voucher of which you speak will not act as an inter-temporal grant for future investment and production; it's just another subsidy for the poor. And the poor have low marketable skills and little capital. (There are reasons, for example, most lottery winners burn right through their cash winnings quickly if you're interested in the read.) You speak of the lack of oversight for private charter schools yet how do you intend to oversee the use of these vouchers and how they're spent if they are to act as a direct cash transfer? How do you plan to instruct the recipients on spending the money wisely? Wouldn't that cost more money? And if you set a performance standard for those who decide to homeschool their children, don't you risk marginalizing those whom these vouchers intend to help?

Your "solution" is essentially to throw many at it under the presumption that these recipients are "victims of their circumstances" rather than subjects of their choices.


It wouldn't affect inflation because it's not NEW money, it's just the same money that's already being spent, it would just be going to different people (trickle-up economics).
The only money which has been spent is money that has been spent. You're speaking of money the government intends to spend. And since the government doesn't have this money, it has to print fiat (i.o.u.'s.) And printing money with no (precious metal/resource standard) creates inflation.


(1) Do you think this proposal (Fix-US) would generate more or fewer criminals?
It's hard to tell. The recipients can use their vouchers to invest or save, or spend on their vices. You've haven't really present any schema that oversees their spending activities.

(2) Do you think this proposal (Fix-US) would generate more or fewer school-shootings?
Same as above.

(3) Do you think this proposal (Fix-US) would generate more or fewer cases of child abuse/neglect?
Same as above.

Your scathing critique is requested.
It's my duty to oblige.


Athias
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@Greyparrot
The dissolution of the core family unit and the associated break-down of social trust is a fundamental contributor to crime.
...so if this is an issue you want to see addressed, keeping the family together should be your number one goal and all incentives should be toward that goal for the welfare of the child and the welfare of society on the whole.

Perhaps if you put in a requirement that this money can only be given to 2 parent families (doesn't have to be heterosexual families), then MAYBE I can get on board.
Assuming of course, that the subsidy rather than the investment of own funds doesn't play a role in the dynamic of the two-parent household, which in and of itself, doesn't provide psychological and social stability.

TheDredPriateRoberts
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I can see why people are attracted to socialism.  There is a need for some social type programs.  There are many "necessary evils"
If you are asking if I would dismiss or dislike something because it's labeled socialism, I would not. I try to examine ideas based on what they are, what merrit I think the do or do not have.  Does that answer the question? 

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@Athias
Assuming of course, that the subsidy rather than the investment of own funds doesn't play a role in the dynamic of the two-parent household, which in and of itself, doesn't provide psychological and social stability. 

There are all sorts of problems with it, yes.
3RU7AL
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My opinion about socialism has nothing to do with my opinion on Fix-Us.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
If you are asking if I would dismiss or dislike something because it's labeled socialism, I would not. I try to examine ideas based on what they are, what merrit I think the do or do not have.  Does that answer the question?

It does, thanks.

I agree that socialism has more bad than good, I also agree that there is some good in some socialistic ideas. The reason I asked you this question in the first place is because of my conversation with TRN. He seems convinced that you are the type that would dismiss any socialistic-type policy merely because it is socialistic (post 57). Can you think of any socialistic-type policy you agree with that would prove him wrong?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The problem is the definition.  I don't know of a practical way to privatize law enforcement and firefighting.  Some call them socialist programs, others disagree.
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@TheRealNihilist
He seems open-minded enough to me. I'm not seeing it.
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@3RU7AL
Solving the first problem gets very hairy. It would need to get discussed at great length. Also, are you saying that people that do drugs should have kids? You are insinuating that it isn't a problem.

The second one, just tell parents that you will not give them more money if they keep having kids. This will not totally solve the problem of government dependence for children, but it will aid it.

Is giving out free money free market? No, to put it shortly.

The problem will evolve into just straight up paying people to have kids. They can profit off of $20,000 per year, you can't really profit as well off of food stamps.

Yes, the breakdown of the family unit is a reason for crime. Yes, you stated that financial problems are a reason for divorce. However, I will point out that promiscuity is the actual cause of breaking down the family unit. It has been studied that the more partners a woman has, the more likely they are to get divorced. Millennials have less partners on average than previous generations and their divorce rates are going down.

Cheaper is one of the biggest focuses. I hate getting taxed. We should lessen the burden on people who actually produce for society. However, more competition will lead to better education.

I believe parents should be responsible. They should not drop out of school, they should enter fields that have a demand for labor, work full time, and they shouldn't have kids until they are married. If they follow those and continue to work, they will have time to spend with their kids and neighbors. However, life isn't all about enjoying free time. You have to work. Why do you think it is okay for some people to work super hard and pay most of the taxes just so that these people can relax at home with their kids and not have to work as hard if at all?
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@3RU7AL
Didn't see first message. 

Why are more efficient public schools a bad thing?

There isn't a "problem" with the local private schools not initially having enough room for the public school kids. They will build more schools if necessary. You are also assuming that private schools won't start offering special programs for disabled kids. They want the voucher revenue! 

Also, just saying a competitive free market isn't an ideal solution for necessities doesn't make that statement true. Water is a necessity. Do you want people competing to lower prices and raise quality, or do you want a government monopoly to give you whatever it wants? Do you think there should be one store in every city that provides all food and medicine, or should there be specialization? Why is lowering prices and raising quality a bad thing?