Is Christian nationalism un-American?

Author: SkepticalOne

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#361
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@SkepticalOne
Simply put, then, there is no such thing as the "Judeo-Christian tradition." It is a modern invention. There always has been a Jewish tradition and a Christian tradition ― or, more accurately, varieties of Jewish and Christian traditions. The term "Judeo-Christian tradition" continues the suppression of Jewishness by hiding the essential differences between Judaism and Christianity, one of which is that each denies the validity of the other. As Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits puts it, "Judaism is Judaism because it rejects Christianity, and Christianity is Christianity because it rejects Judaism."

Agree. Judeo-Christian is code for Christian.
Judeo-Christian accepts Christianity has its roots in Judaism. But the primary difference is Jesus is central to Christianity and circumcision is central to Judaism.
#362
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Christian nationalism is as American as apple pie.

What is nationalism? Defined broadly, it's the political expression of identitarianism. We have black identitarianism, an umbrella POC identitarianism, a slowly growing white identitarianism, feminism, the LGBTQ movement, militant atheist political activism to shut down any whiff of a small town Christmas pageant or football game prayers, and so on.
Then there are a million other niche groups that haven't quite risen to that level: people who call themselves "survivors" of mainstream psychiatry. People who identify with the label of not being able to get a girlfriend. Eunuchs. Flat earthers. Anti-vaxxers. All of it's but a continuation of Alexis de Tocqueville's description of America as a place of endless voluntary associations.

I would be shocked if Christians weren't a part of this process. Especially given that Christians have some of the most noteworthy collective gripes and grievances in the country.
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#363
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@Swagnarok
Christian nationalism is as American as apple pie.
  • 1st commandment: You shall have no other gods before me.

  • 1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The notion that America was founded on Christian principles runs contrary to American principles enumerated in the Constitution. Being an American Christian might be as American as apple pie, but Christian nationalism makes as much sense as America being built on contradictory values such as 1C and 1A. 
#364
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@SkepticalOne
You shall have no other gods before me.
Um, okay. This has literally nothing to do with the topic, but okay.

1st amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
I mean, atheists and hardcore secularists are constantly trying to coopt the government to their advantage. They want a one-sided wall of separation where religious people can do nothing but the state can be used to promote viewpoints that tend to degrade religion.
If they can do that, then why is it worse for Christians to behave and aim similarly? And if/since it isn't, why is disproportionate attention and worry paid to the matter?
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#365
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@Swagnarok
You shall have no other gods before me
Um, okay. This has literally nothing to do with the topic, but okay.

Tell me you haven't read the OP without actually telling me. :-) 

The Op is about Christian Nationalism - if core Christian and American values aren't relevant to this subject, nothing is.

I mean, atheists and hardcore secularists are constantly trying to coopt the government to their advantage.


Tu quoque fallacy.

Again, the OP is about Christian Nationalism. If your argument is 'someone else is doing it!', you implicitly admit you don't mind distorting the Constitution to serve your own purposes. Besides, there is no such thing as 'atheist nationalism' and our government is secular - the absence of religion in government is to the advantage of everyone...even those who see neutrality as a threat.
#366
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@SkepticalOne
Tu quoque fallacy.
If there are crumbs all over your own face, then you berating me for sticking my hand in the cookie jar doesn't exactly hold a lot of credibility.

you implicitly admit you don't mind distorting the Constitution to serve your own purposes
When did I say that I wanted this?

there is no such thing as 'atheist nationalism'
When atheists want the government to do their bidding specific to their position on religion, then yeah. Yeah there is.

the absence of religion in government is to the advantage of everyone
This very choice of wording is a malicious distortion. What the 1st Amendment assures is religious neutrality. "Absence of religion" could be construed to mean state promotion of atheism, which would violate religious neutrality.

The fact of the matter is that almost nobody understands what secularism actually means. It is not what exists in France, Turkey, or North Korea. If the government is run by people who think "that dagnab religious group should be less religious and conform to the values that set for them", then what you have in essence is a reverse-Taliban.
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#367
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@Swagnarok
you implicitly admit you don't mind distorting the Constitution to serve your own purposes
When did I say that I wanted this?
Do you not understand the word 'implicit'? 

When atheists want the government to do their bidding specific to their position on religion, then yeah. Yeah there is.
This goes to my point above - you are suggesting because group B does X, it is acceptable for group A to do the same. That is an implicit argument for revisionism. 

the absence of religion in government is to the advantage of everyone
This very choice of wording is a malicious distortion.
Not at all. There is a conflict of interest when a government is responsible for protecting religious freedom while also favoring a religion.

What the 1st Amendment assures is religious neutrality. "Absence of religion" could be construed to mean state promotion of atheism
State promotion of any religious view, including strong atheism, would not be neutrality. It seems you are amenable to a religiously neutral government which is what I am advocating. Where is the disconnect here?
#368
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@Swagnarok
Christian nationalism is as American as apple pie.

What is nationalism? Defined broadly, it's the political expression of identitarianism. We have black identitarianism, an umbrella POC identitarianism, a slowly growing white identitarianism, feminism, the LGBTQ movement, militant atheist political activism to shut down any whiff of a small town Christmas pageant or football game prayers, and so on. 
Then there are a million other niche groups that haven't quite risen to that level: people who call themselves "survivors" of mainstream psychiatry. People who identify with the label of not being able to get a girlfriend. Eunuchs. Flat earthers. Anti-vaxxers. All of it's but a continuation of Alexis de Tocqueville's description of America as a place of endless voluntary associations.

I would be shocked if Christians weren't a part of this process. Especially given that Christians have some of the most noteworthy collective gripes and grievances in the country.
Over 70% of Americans claim they are Christians. The American constitution guaranteed Americans their God given rights.

The separation of Church and State was to allow the church to grow  unhindered by the State.
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#369
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@Shila
The separation of Church and State was to allow the church to grow unhindered by the State.
Separation protects both religion from state and state from religion.
#370
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@SkepticalOne
The separation of Church and State was to allow the church to grow unhindered by the State.

Separation protects both religion from state and state from religion.
How is the State protected from religion when the population in the State are mostly Christians. Take for example the Bible Belt or Southern  States.
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#371
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@Shila
How is the State protected from religion when the population in the State are mostly Christians. 
One of the duties of the state is to protect religious freedom.  Religious freedom isn't only applicable to Christianity- it applies to all religious views. The personal views of government officials are irrelevant to their governmental obligation. Using the power of the people to advance their religion would be a betrayal of the trust the governed places in them.
#372
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@SkepticalOne
How is the State protected from religion when the population in the State are mostly Christians. 

One of the duties of the state is to protect religious freedom.  Religious freedom isn't only applicable to Christianity- it applies to all religious views. The personal views of government officials are irrelevant to their governmental obligation. Using the power of the people to advance their religion would be a betrayal of the trust the governed places in them.
Isn’t that what happened to Abortion Rights?
The Supreme Court threw out Roe V Wade because the Christian Conservatives packed the court with conservative judges.
#373
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@SkepticalOne
Do you not understand the word 'implicit'? 
I know what implicit means. But to answer your question, I don't want what you claim I want.

I'd be perfectly fine with an actually secular society. But not this dumpster fire where taxpaying parents have to pay for public schools while they're not allowed to receive a penny for religious private school. Not this dumpster fire where quasi-public institutions, considered authoritative by the government and society alike, are waging constant psychological warfare against this country's Christian population. Not this dumpster fire where the rainbow flag is flown on the grounds of American embassies.

This goes to my point above - you are suggesting because group B does X, it is acceptable for group A to do the same.
Like I said, I don't want either group A or group B to do diddly squat. But hypocrites who use Christians' side of this to attack and slander my community while ignoring their own side of this rub me the wrong way.

There is a conflict of interest when a government is responsible for protecting religious freedom while also favoring a religion
There's also a conflict of interest when the government favors ideologies that harm religion. Why don't we get rid of all conflicts of interest?

State promotion of any religious view, including strong atheism, would not be neutrality
I'm glad we agree. But that applies to "weak" atheism as much as it does "strong" atheism. If the state is gently nudging you in the direction of abandoning the basic precepts of your faith, then it might as well be the Soviet Union so far as I see it.
#374
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@Shila
 The share of Americans who identify as white and Christian has dropped below 50 percent, a transformation fueled by immigration and by growing numbers of people who reject organized religion altogether, according to a new survey released Wednesday.
Christians overall remain a large majority in the U.S., at nearly 70 percent of Americans. However, white Christians, once predominant in the country’s religious life, now comprise only 43 percent of the population, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, or PRRI, a polling organization based in Washington. Four decades ago, about eight in 10 Americans were white Christians.
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@Shila

What percent of college professors are Christians?  That figure is only about 7 percent, according to the nationwide General Social Survey, issued by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.
#376
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@FLRW
The share of Americans who identify as white and Christian has dropped below 50 percent, a transformation fueled by immigration and by growing numbers of people who reject organized religion altogether, according to a new survey released Wednesday.
Christians overall remain a large majority in the U.S., at nearly 70 percent of Americans. However, white Christians, once predominant in the country’s religious life, now comprise only 43 percent of the population, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, or PRRI, a polling organization based in Washington. Four decades ago, about eight in 10 Americans were white Christians.



What percent of college professors are Christians?  That figure is only about 7 percent, according to the nationwide General Social Survey, issued by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.
The Christian Post.

More Americans Now Believe Bible Is a Book of Fables, Not Literal Word of God: Gallup.

By 2030 the majority of Christians will come from Africa.
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#377
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@Shila
Isn’t that what happened to Abortion Rights?
The Supreme Court threw out Roe V Wade because the Christian Conservatives packed the court with conservative judges.
Yes, I would say so. Although I doubt Scotus would openly agree with that description. 

#378
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@SkepticalOne
Isn’t that what happened to Abortion Rights?
The Supreme Court threw out Roe V Wade because the Christian Conservatives packed the court with conservative judges.

Yes, I would say so. Although I doubt Scotus would openly agree with that description. 
So the separation of State and Church in the Constitution is a big lie.

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#379
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@Swagnarok
taxpaying parents have to pay for public schools while they're not allowed to receive a penny for religious private school. 
A secular government paying for religious educations? You don't think that crosses a line? 

quasi-public institutions, considered authoritative by the government and society alike, are waging constant psychological warfare against this country's Christian population. 
That's probably not as clear as you think...

rainbow flag is flown on the grounds of American embassies.
Acknowledging an historically marginalized segment of our society is an attack on religion? 

There's also a conflict of interest when the government favors ideologies that harm religion. Why don't we get rid of all conflicts of interest?
Some religious views conflict with facts of reality. Government should never be about appeasing fragile ideologies. If a religious sect is built on ignorance, intolerance, hatred, etc. that is not something government has any interest in protecting. The state has an obligation to society in general over the insular tribe within it.

State promotion of any religious view, including strong atheism, would not be neutrality
I'm glad we agree. But that applies to "weak" atheism as much as it does "strong" atheism
Weak atheism is lack of belief.  It is to religious view like silence is music.  Silence is neutrality.
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#380
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@Shila
So the separation of State and Church in the Constitution is a big lie.
No. There are groups who seek to undermine it though.
#381
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And stuff.

And go to bed.

And get up in the morning....With a bit of luck.

And if one wants to be in a Sunday morning club and do a bit of mumbling and singing....Then go for it.

And the founding fathers (mothers didn't get a look in) are long since dead and buried.
#382
Polytheist-Witch
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 If a religious sect is built on ignorance, intolerance, hatred, etc
That's every religion to atheists so why bother stating it? LOL.
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#383
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@Polytheist-Witch
If a religious sect is built on ignorance, intolerance, hatred, etc
That's every religion to atheists so why bother stating it? LOL.
My view of religion entertains nuance and is quite unlike your apparent view of atheists.
#384
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@SkepticalOne
Oh bull shit. You guys say all the time the fact that this tried to pass religion on to their children is abuse. Play that game somewhere else.
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#385
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh bull shit. You guys say all the time the fact that this tried to pass religion on to their children is abuse. Play that game somewhere else.
"You guys"? I dont speak for all atheists and they dont speak for me. Find one instance where I have claimed exposing children to religion is child abuse. FYI, you won't find it.

This is a distraction from the arguments presented. Either you agree or disagree. Engage and make your case or rant by yourself. 
#386
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@SkepticalOne
Up yours,  I can post whatever I want to. You never argue with those atheists that post that crap so as far as I'm concerned you agree with it and when someone calls you out on it is the only time you say oh that's not me.  So go run your line somewhere else lying piece of crap.
#387
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Poly, isn't giving your child an opiate, abuse?
#388
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@FLRW
Poly, isn't giving your child an opiate, abuse?
A witch having children is child abuse.