AMA - Bsh1

Author: bsh1

Posts

Total: 177
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@bsh1
This comment again fails to take into account important distinctions between sex and gender. I may call someone a woman because their sex is female, but I may also do so because their gender is female.
Apply it to the water example. If I was referring to the specific qualitites then Earth A water is different to Earth B water but if I only speak about the functions they are the same. Do you disagree?
I engage with them all the time, but that does not mean I will engage with every one I encounter. 
That is a no for this one.
(a) why those goals come to be an ideology's goals and (b) how the ideology plans to pursue those goals. Saying that "because progressivism and populism share a goal, they are linked or the same" is fundamentally absurd.
This is absurd because the goals needed to reduce the income inequality is taking from the rich. Populism makes sure of it with their ideology. Progressives just don't say it. Tell me how this isn't the case.
I am using liberalism in the American political sense, not in the classic sense.
Okay. Even though I asked the question implying the definitions would be given by me you still don't engage with it. Instead you use liberalism as pretty much the same word as progressives. You didn't engage with the problems of a liberal and progressive you just stated they mean the same thing to me so I am not using your definition to engage with the claim you made. Great. 
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
Apply it to the water example. If I was referring to the specific qualitites then Earth A water is different to Earth B water but if I only speak about the functions they are the same. Do you disagree?
Not sure what you're trying to say here. In the case of these waters, they are the same in their qualities and functions, but differ in their make up. I don't see how then this applies to the trans issue, because it just plays into a conflation of sex and gender. Sure, trans women might be made of male chromosomes, but that only describes their sex. They can still have a female gender, which allows for us to sensically refer to them as women. 

This is absurd because the goals needed to reduce the income inequality is taking from the rich.
That is oversimplified in the extreme, and overlooks the nuances of my response to you.

You didn't engage with the problems of a liberal and progressive
That's because you weren't actually saying anything that made sense in the context of our conversation.

I said that progressivism is the socioeconomic component of American political liberalism. You then tried to argue that there was tension between progressivism and liberalism, but you were only able to make this argument because you were confusing two different kinds of liberalism. After I pointed out the distinction between American political liberalism and classic liberalism, it should have become evident to you that the tension you thought existed between progressivism and American political liberalism never actually existed at all.
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@TheRealNihilist
^^^
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Snoopy
That's easy. Reactionary approaches are not rooted in ideological cores. Progressivism is rooted in an ideological core, and thus not reactionary.
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@bsh1
they are the same in their qualities and functions, but differ in their make up.
Yes exactly the same with trans women. Socially can be considered but in rare cases as in receiving treatment from doctors, filling legal documents they would have to apply their sex if needed. Same applies with water. Water can be considered for the most of the time as water in both Earth's but when writing a paper on the differences on the two waters it would have to distinguished. 

Basically trans women can be socially called women.
Water in both Earths can be socially called women.

When the need arises would have to be labelled to their specific label.

Do you disagree?
That is oversimplified in the extreme, and overlooks the nuances of my response to you.
A populist can be both on the left and right.
A progressive is considered to be on the left.

When there is a left wing populist. What doesn't make them a progressive?
I said that progressivism is the socioeconomic component of American political liberalism. 
A liberal can have socioeconomic components that are not considered progressive. This can be being for free trade. Free trade is a not a progressive idea. 

Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@bsh1
That's easy. Reactionary approaches are not rooted in ideological cores. Progressivism is rooted in an ideological core, and thus not reactionary.

In the United States, progressivism began as a social movement in the 1890s and grew into a political movement in what was known as the Progressive Era. While the term "American progressives" represent a range of diverse political pressure groups (not always united), some American progressives rejected social Darwinism, believing that the problems society faced (poverty, violence, greed, racism and class warfare) could best be addressed by providing good education, a safe environment, and an efficient workplace. Progressives lived mainly in the cities, were college educated and believed that government could be a tool for change.[20] American President Theodore Roosevelt of the Republican Party and later the Progressive Party declared that he "always believed that wise progressivism and wise conservatism go hand in hand".[21] President Woodrow Wilson was also a member of the American progressive movement within the Democratic Party.
-Wikepedia

What is it we are progressing from, problems faced by society?  There is still the problem of agreeing to "progress".  

A "progressive party" I can get behind.  

The Progressive Party was a third party in the United States formed in 1912 by former President Theodore Roosevelt after he lost the presidential nomination of the Republican Party to his former protégé and conservative rival, incumbent President William Howard Taft. The new party was known for taking advanced positions on progressive and populist reforms and attracting leading national reformers. After the party's defeat in the 1912 presidential election, it went into rapid decline in elections until 1918, disappearing by 1920. The Progressive Party was popularly nicknamed the "Bull Moose Party" since Roosevelt often said that he felt "strong as a bull moose" both before and after an assassination attempt on the campaign trail.[1]
-Wikipedia

Vaarka
Vaarka's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 696
2
1
5
Vaarka's avatar
Vaarka
2
1
5
-->
@bsh1
You wanna do a hangout or something sometime?
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,758
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Vaarka
Ye ye
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Snoopy
What is it we are progressing from, problems faced by society?
I don't honestly find that to be an important question. It is a name, and names of political movements are often designed to advertise rather than describe. Even so, if we are progressing from something, it is probably the past. Progressivism, as a name, implies a steady movement forward.
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Yes exactly the same with trans women
No. Because while water may have properties, make up, and functions, it does not have an identity, which is a constructed self-image. It is precisely this that makes water a terrible analogy. People have constructed self-images that constitute identities. When we refer to trans women as women, we do so to respect their identity, not to describe their genetic make up.

When there is a left wing populist. What doesn't make them a progressive?
Populism is reactionary, progressivism is ideological. Therein lies the difference.

A liberal can have socioeconomic components that are not considered progressive. This can be being for free trade. 
A liberal can have ideas which are not liberal. Very few people are so ideologically consistent that 100% of their views fit their ideological orthodoxy. I would not describe free trade as a liberal idea either, though some liberals believe in it.
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Vaarka
Yes. But probs not this week.
Snoopy
Snoopy's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,320
2
2
4
Snoopy's avatar
Snoopy
2
2
4
-->
@bsh1
What is it we are progressing from, problems faced by society?

I don't honestly find that to be an important question. It is a name, and names of political movements are often designed to advertise rather than describe. Even so, if we are progressing from something, it is probably the past. Progressivism, as a name, implies a steady movement forward.
So doesn't it just designate movement from a myriad of pressure groups?


TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@bsh1
it does not have an identity, which is a constructed self-image. 
Water does have an identity. It is the one we chose to give it.
Populism is reactionary, progressivism is ideological. Therein lies the difference.
What makes something reactionary?
Populism is not an ideology?
I would not describe free trade as a liberal idea either, though some liberals believe in it.
How is this not a liberal idea? 
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@TheRealNihilist
Water does have an identity. It is the one we chose to give it.
That is an asinine thing to say. Water--as a word--has meaning, but having a meaning is not the same has having an identity. Similarly, water--as a thing--has a name, but having a name is not the same as having an identity. "John" is not someone's identity though it is a name which has meaning.

An identity, as I used and am using the term, is a self-constructed idea of who we are as entities. Since water is not self-aware, it is precluded from having an identity. And, because water only has properties and functions, it is not a good analog to trans women, who also have identities. 

Consider: John may identify as American even if John not an American citizen. Suppose perhaps that John has spent 80 of his 81 years alive in this country, and therefore has constructed an identity for himself which constitutes him as American.

Similarly: Mary may identify as a Woman even if Mary is not a biological female. Suppose perhaps that Mary has spent 20 of her 23 years alive feeling like she is a woman, and therefore has constructed an identity for herself which constitutes her as a Woman.

When someone calls John an American (or when he calls himself that), he is not being called that because of his properties and abilities, but because of his identity. When someone calls Mary a Woman (or when she calls herself that), she is not being called that because of her properties and abilities, but because of her identity. Therefore, when one understands the difference between sex and gender, it is not illogical or incorrect to refer to trans women as women, given that their gender identity is female.

bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
What makes something reactionary?
Populism is not an ideology?
Something is reactionary when it arises as a backlash to an ongoing issue, when it is almost exclusively geared towards addressing that one issue, and when it is not rooted in some kind of structured philosophy.

I might refer to populism as an ideology, but strictly speaking, I don't think that's correct. It is rather a descriptor for certain kinds of movements or sociopolitical waves.

How is this not a liberal idea? 
It's classic liberal, which means Republican or right-of-center.

However, as I have said before, I use the term liberal to refer to American political liberalism, which is heavily left-of-center. It is clearly not a left-of-center idea, and thus not liberal.

15 days later

Vaarka
Vaarka's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 696
2
1
5
Vaarka's avatar
Vaarka
2
1
5
-->
@bsh1
I need a quick answer. What is the line of hair from the belly button to the dick called?
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Vaarka
Glory trail.

Why are you asking, lol?
Vaarka
Vaarka's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 696
2
1
5
Vaarka's avatar
Vaarka
2
1
5
-->
@bsh1
it was relevant at the time
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Vaarka
Ah, but why was it relevant?
Trent0405
Trent0405's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 471
3
9
11
Trent0405's avatar
Trent0405
3
9
11
-->
@bsh1
What are your thoughts on Justin Trudeau and Steven harper? they're Canadian so I'm not sure if you know a lot about them.

My thoughts-

Harper-YESSSSSSS

Trudeau- either below average or average.
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Trent0405
As a left-of-center individual, I cannot honestly say I like Stephen Harper. Trudeau is hot, but that hardly redeems his recent scandals. Not a fan of either, then.
Trent0405
Trent0405's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 471
3
9
11
Trent0405's avatar
Trent0405
3
9
11
-->
@bsh1
thank you for your input
Vaarka
Vaarka's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 696
2
1
5
Vaarka's avatar
Vaarka
2
1
5
-->
@bsh1
I don't remember why anymore lol
Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,472
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
-->
@bsh1
Thoughts on Joe Walsh for President?
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@Alec
He is too right-wing for me, and he has no chance of winning. Literally, the only Republicans who have recently run for President and who I could consider voting for in a Presidential election are Jon Huntsman and John Kasich. And I would only vote for them if I had significant issues with the Democratic nominee. For example, if the Democrats nominated someone like Tulsi Gabbard, I might actually vote for someone like Huntsman or Kasich. Otherwise, probably not.
TheRealNihilist
TheRealNihilist's avatar
Debates: 44
Posts: 4,920
4
9
11
TheRealNihilist's avatar
TheRealNihilist
4
9
11
-->
@bsh1
For example, if the Democrats nominated someone like Tulsi Gabbard, I might actually vote for someone like Huntsman or Kasich. Otherwise, probably not.
What specifically about Tulsi do you dislike, please don't tell me her looks :( ?

Is she really the worst?

Would you vote for Biden if he was the nominee?
bsh1
bsh1's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 2,589
5
5
8
bsh1's avatar
bsh1
5
5
8
-->
@TheRealNihilist
No, she looks good. The grey streak is EVERYTHING...Besides, I would never vote for or against someone on the basis of their appearance. My objection to her is rooted in the fact that I don't believe her evolution from conservative to liberal was authentic. This article does a good job of discussing that transition. I don't trust her to be anything but a noninterventionist moderate on all issues except healthcare, and that's not really what I want. At that point, I might as just well vote for a noninterventionist moderate like Huntsman or Kasich, who has much more experience in government than she does. A Gabbard vs. Huntsman campaign would really challenge me, and I am not sure how I would vote.

I will vote for Biden, not because he is my first or second or third choice, but because Trump is so utterly atrocious that pretty much anyone would be a better alternative.