What do you think about Antinatalism?

Author: TheRealNihilist

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#31
Barney
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@TheRealNihilist
I'd say when the parents are dedicating enough resources to give the child a more than average shot at an enjoyable life.

On the other end of the spectrum, some parents today still have kids for the express purpose of cheap labor (AKA slaves).
More than average in the US or across the world?
Do you have a percentage on how many do you think have a shot at an enjoyable life?
Do you know a shot doesn't actually mean they will take it? 
1. Localized averages. Parents in the USA cannot compete with parents in Luxembourg, and it would not be a fair to expectation.
2. I have not written any doctoral thesis papers on the topic.
3. Yup.
#32
RationalMadman
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Do you have an example where a negative can become a positive? 
Plenty. Put a monkey in a tank of water and a fish on a tree. Point made.

Basically your stances on it. 

Here is the definition:
Antinatalism, or anti-natalism, is a philosophical position that assigns a negative value to birth. Antinatalists argue that people should abstain from procreation because it is morally bad (some also recognize the procreation of other sentient beings as morally bad).
Unlike pro-choicers, this outlook is inherently toxic to have. You may as well want to kill yourself if you believe this... 

There is only one scenario where it's true, which is if we have cured ageing with enough people alive such that we've evolved beyond the actual mechanism of evolution... Reproduction.
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#33
TheRealNihilist
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@Barney
1. Localized averages. Parents in the USA cannot compete with parents in Luxembourg, and it would not be a fair to expectation.
2. I have not written any doctoral thesis papers on the topic.
3. Yup.
Okay. 

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#34
TheRealNihilist
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@RM

Plenty. Put a monkey in a tank of water and a fish on a tree. Point made.
Okay? We have the ability to make decide on morality whereas a monkey nor a fish can't due to how easy it is for certain humans to survive. If you want me to be more clear then I am specifically talking about humans.
Unlike pro-choicers, this outlook is inherently toxic to have. You may as well want to kill yourself if you believe this... 
I can say the likely conclusion of any Ben Shapiro fanboy is anarchism given their dislike for taxes but they still deny it. Can you make the link between the negative value of birth and wanting to commit suicide or assisted suicide?
There is only one scenario where it's true, which is if we have cured ageing with enough people alive such that we've evolved beyond the actual mechanism of evolution... Reproduction.
Why?
#35
RationalMadman
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Okay? We have the ability to make decide on morality whereas a monkey nor a fish can't due to how easy it is for certain humans to survive. If you want me to be more clear then I am specifically talking about humans.

Surviving is hyperbole, clearly you didn't grasp the analogy. Let's say you're a math genius and I'm a biological fanatic particularly interested in herbology. Put me in a situation where herbology and math need to be combined in a very complex way to invent, investigate or describe (in a scientifically in-depth manner) and without your strengths and mine put together we'd be a flailing fish and monkey. Now, let's say I'm better with women while you're better at making food and we're roommates. You be my wingman, I be the assistant to you in the kitchen and it's double trouble at home that night if we go out, right place right time etc. ;)

There are not real positives or negatives in terms of 'good trait' or its counterpart in life. Everything is about context. A psychopath is one of the best people to help you take on a psychopath. An empathetic dependent person is a fantastic support to you in a way the psychopath can never be but is useless in such a conflict. Everyone has times when there exact strengths in one way are weaknesses in another.

Let's say you have a playstyle in a game that's quite nuanced, it would have to be in order to go down as legendary or great... Yet, all the most shit playstyles are also just as nuanced. A few updates and patch alterations later, your main character and way of playing go from most overpowered to most nerfed... Now are you going to shine? 

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Can you make the link between the negative value of birth and wanting to commit suicide or assisted suicide?
While you can support abortion and say 'but my parents didn't abort me or weren't able to and it's whatever now.' as a gelling of the hypocrisy of being pro-choice and wanting yourself to have been born, you can't be anti-natalist and not hold in contempt, whether you forgive or not, your parents for having had you and society for wanting to carry on and brainwash us in the media to marry, love and raise children as happy families etc.

There is only one scenario where it's true, which is if we have cured ageing with enough people alive such that we've evolved beyond the actual mechanism of evolution... Reproduction.
Why?
No one's dying, do we need new humans anymore, especially if we don't live on Mars or have any other landspace than Earth to fit inside in and use the resources of? No. We'd be killing everyone or making things terrible for all by having children after the cure for ageing becomes attainable to the masses, if they are having children without being an 'opt-out of immortality' type.
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#36
TheRealNihilist
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@RM

There are not real positives or negatives in terms of 'good trait' or its counterpart in life.
Do you consider someone enjoying themselves without harming others a negative?
Everyone has times when there exact strengths in one way are weaknesses in another
I am more focused on it as a whole which is why a psychopath as a whole as in if he/she was allowed to commit what he/she did more than likely it won't outweigh what he/she could do in getting other psychopaths. Depends on what i count as a positive or negative but stopping one psychopath is not going to outweigh the countless victims of the psychopath that helped if the psychopath went on a killing spree.
Now are you going to shine?
We can make it specific to a specific environment. As a whole in a specific environment as in a specific version and how well you are doing in everything.
Lets take WoW. Never played it but I think I can make an analogy. On update X a person is the best PVP'er but that only takes up a 1/12 of he/she's time on the game whereas a person who is good at PVE is apply to be positive for 11/12 of their time playing the game. Even if the PVP'er was better at PVP it still doesn't match the consistency of the PVE'er which is able to be positive for a longer period of time. Positive as in useful not happy in this case. 
you can't be anti-natalist and not hold in contempt, whether you forgive or not, your parents for having had you and society for wanting to carry on and brainwash us in the media to marry, love and raise children as happy families etc.
Well I guess you can't. Anti-natalism applies a negative value to birth if they are born then they will be started as a negative and under their view can eventually become a positive but doesn't mean an anti-natalist doesn't want to have children. I think it would be more so children that would not have a positive life in a current predicament which should not be brought into the world whether it be a genetic disease or being poor. "should not be brought" would be under what that anti-natalist would value.  
No. We'd be killing everyone or making things terrible for all by having children after the cure for ageing becomes attainable to the masses, if they are having children without being an 'opt-out of immortality' type.
What if we found a matrix and only took up the space we take right now not an entire house? Would it still be terrible for people to make children? 
#37
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Do you consider someone enjoying themselves without harming others a negative?
A member of a family, society or anything other than themselves is harming those around them with the effects of say, drugs or whatever else on them (side effects or main effect, it's irrelevant). If that's the kind of thing you're referring to, it's all about chain reactions and indirect harm. A drugged worker works less well, too, so there isn't even an economic benefit unless we're talking caffeinated workers.

Depends on what i count as a positive or negative but
There is no 'but', you understood the point I made and agreed to it and added the 'but' to somehow undermine that you totally understood it and agreed to it. The thing you said after the 'but' didn't disagree with it but merely showed how every such thing is based on subjective assertions of value that you would be most pleased and least displeased with acting in exchange for or spending in value for a greater short-term or long-term pleasure of another form (including how heroic you feel and the endorphin rush from that) in relation to it.
What if we found a matrix and only took up the space we take right now not an entire house? Would it still be terrible for people to make children? 
I already said no to this since this doesn't lead to overpopulation and that was the only stage at which we can begin to argue, if we are immortal, that there's pretty much undeniably negative value to having children if the people aren't dying to make room for them.
#38
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I am going to transfer this to the philosophy forum in a day or two.