God is good is an assumption

Author: TheRealNihilist

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@keithprosser


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Keithprosser,


You can’t expect too much from mopac, as is shown in this thread where he continues to RUN AWAY from the inspired word of Jesus in my post #8 directed to him.  He is who he pretends to be.

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2050


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Mopac
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@keithprosser
You believe in the existence of God.

Your conception of God is not what you think the Christian God is.

If you believe there is Ultimate reality, you believe God exists whether or not you acknowledge this is God or not. The Ultimate Reality is what God means.



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@Mopac
The Ultimate Reality is what God means.
Use a small g and you might have a defensible point.   As it is, you are just plain wrong.


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@BrotherDThomas
I would say Mopac has hit on what he thinks of as a slam-dunk argument and won't let go of it.
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@TheRealNihilist
From the arguments that I have seen from past I concluded that. I am willing to hear a God argument if you have one since that is part of the topic. The love part should have been a question can we talk about God's existence then we talk. I much rather it be formed as a question to talk about a specific aspect of the topic then something else entirely which you hope I understand but if you read my responses from Mopac  I didn't. 
The problem is that if anyone gives a reason why they believe God is good, all you will do is ask for proof of his existence.

I don't believe goblins exist. If I tell someone I don't believe they exist, and then tell someone that believes they exist that they just assume they are bad, wouldn't that sound a bit odd? I might say it sarcastically (Ha ha, are you profiling goblins like a racist?).

In other words, it appears you're using this question as another way of demanding proof of God's existence.


I should have said that for this topic I'll assume God's existence but not the any specific Religion to be true instead simply God and now you would have to give me an argument or you can speak about how God does existence. Your choice.
I already gave you a Biblical argument. Love also exists as well, so mostly likely a creator would have something to do with it's existence. I would say both are logical reasons to conclude God is good.

Do you consider life good in general?


Maybe you haven't told me.
I consider myself a Christian.


If we don't know how it is done how do we know how it is done? Circular yes but that is the very question you are asking. Well I like the stances to be from information gained through professionals in fields so that it is isn't based on my belief more so someone's academic background and researching which led to those answers.

Science only answers questions within our dimension, but a number of scientists acknowledge the possibility of other dimensions (even if they don't want to). Do you agree that other dimensions may exist?

The paper has been peer-reviewed. Make sure it as close to the current.
Sounds sort of like relying on a computer to make the ultimate choice for a spouse.

RoderickSpode
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@keithprosser

Praying to the UR makes no more sense than praying to the Higgs field.  If you like, why not call the Higgs field God?  Mopac thinks that if he calls reality 'God' then atheists are duty bound to deny it exists!
What is it about praying that doesn't make sense? Is it because there are no mechanisms involved (e.g., a cell phone)? Or is communication with the ultimate reality in any fashion completely out of the question?

So is the UR God?   No.  The UR has some of the features people have traditionally associated with gods, but it is not the God Mopac worships.  That God does not exist.
But doesn't this fall into the category of claiming special knowledge of, in this case the ultimate reality?
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@RoderickSpode
What is annoying about Mopac (or one of the many annoying things!) is NOT his claim the UR is capital_G God but his insistence that anyone who doesn't accept uncritically that the UR is capital-G God is denying the existence of reality and a fool.

I don't believe in God (or gods, or the supernatural in general) at all, but that's not the point.  He purports to make a rational argument but he doesn't - he rehashes the kalam which 'proves' a UR underpins reality (dubious,but I am prepared to go along with it) but he leaves the crucial connection of the UR to capital-G God as an unsupported assertion.  And then has the unmitigated gall to call anyone who notices the flaw in his argument a fool!

If Mopac has faith that the UR is God (ie not just a god-like entity or some unknown physics)then I can't stop him!  If the God of the Bible exists then He probably is the UR.  But if Mopac thinks his argument proves the God he worships exists then he is wrong and no-one is a fool for noticing that fatal flaw in his logic nor for drawing attention to it.   Rather Mopac is a fool for thinking that critics of his argument deny reality itself.no matter how many times he is told otherwise.





 
 

RoderickSpode
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@keithprosser
I do understand what you're getting at though. We can also replace the term ultimate reality with intelligent designer, and run into the same problem I think you're getting at. Like if Antony Flew said to a Christian I now believe there's an intelligent designer involved in our existence. And the Christian says now you need to go to church. Well of course Antony didn't believe in the Christian God. He just simply believed in an intelligent designer without any religious affiliation.
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@RoderickSpode
Anthony Flew became a deist.  While he didn't (officially) adopt a mainstream religion he was very sympathetic to Christianity.

I really doubt anybody will read it, but I will link to Flew's 'There is a God' so people can read what Flew actualy wrote.  

I think that we need to debate what the words 'god and 'God' mean.
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@keithprosser
Definition of God courtesy Merriam-webster...

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality:

So no, you are the one who is wrong, capital G refers to the Ultimate Reality, and Merriam-webster backs me up on this.

TheRealNihilist
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@RoderickSpode
In other words, it appears you're using this question as another way of demanding proof of God's existence.
Not really. I assumed God existed but wanted to see how people can come to God being good but I didn't see it. This can also be God's existence topic if you want.
I already gave you a Biblical argument. Love also exists as well, so mostly likely a creator would have something to do with it's existence. I would say both are logical reasons to conclude God is good. 
Where is your reasons?
Science only answers questions within our dimension, but a number of scientists acknowledge the possibility of other dimensions (even if they don't want to). Do you agree that other dimensions may exist?
If we don't have a framework that gives us facts that can be tested then I ain't going to make claims about it. I ain't no professional nor are Theologians because they have yet to test any of their claims. I'll stick to God's existence as the claim.
Sounds sort of like relying on a computer to make the ultimate choice for a spouse.
I'll just say it again to receive a more serious response. Do you even know what peer-review is? I would say how bad ideas lead to lack of knowledge in other topics but I'll save it for later if I can think of it then. 
The paper has been peer-reviewed. Make sure it as close to the current. 

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@TheRealNihilist
Not really. I assumed God existed but wanted to see how people can come to God being good but I didn't see it. This can also be God's existence topic if you want.
Okay.

Where is your reasons?
 

As I stated, there are numerous texts in the Bible that indicate that God is love, which would make him good, like




Jeremiah 31:3 (NLT) - Long ago the Lord said to Israel: “I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to
myself."



Romans 5:8 (NIV) - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 

Also, combining this avenue of consideration with day to day living, experiencing loving, being loved, us being made in God's image (per the Bible consideration), it's logical to conclude God is love, thus God is good.




TheRealNihilist
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@RoderickSpode
there are numerous texts in the Bible that indicate that God is love, which would make him good, like

Jeremiah 31:3 (NLT) - Long ago the Lord said to Israel: “I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to 
myself."


Romans 5:8 (NIV) - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 

Also, combining this avenue of consideration with day to day living, experiencing loving, being loved, us being made in God's image (per the Bible consideration), it's logical to conclude God is love, thus God is good.
This is under the assumption God is good, God exists by the Bible being a trusted source?

Can you tell me why I should trust what the Bible says? 
RoderickSpode
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@TheRealNihilist
If we don't have a framework that gives us facts that can be tested then I ain't going to make claims about it. I ain't no professional nor are Theologians because they have yet to test any of their claims. I'll stick to God's existence as the claim.
Theologians are experts at theology. They're not going to find God for you. If you wanted to really find God, I don't think you would inquire with a scientist, go to an observatory to use their telescope, or go to a lab and start mixing chemicals. You might inquire with a minister or maybe a theologian, but in my opinion, you'd extinctively know what to do once you're alone.




Sounds sort of like relying on a computer to make the ultimate choice for a spouse.
I'll just say it again to receive a more serious response. Do you even know what peer-review is? I would say how bad ideas lead to lack of knowledge in other topics but I'll save it for later if I can think of it then. 
Yes lol. And even if I hadn't known, I could have googled it.

The problem is, using peer review as an example of evidence isn't any better than goddidit. It's an easy answer
for
a problem I mentioned that cannot
be discovered directly through science because science doesn't reveal beyond our dimension.

1. What would a peer review giving evidence of God contain?

2. Let's just say a scientist wrote an article giving sufficient evidence of God submitted for
perr
review. Would you become a Christian?





RoderickSpode
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@TheRealNihilist
This is under the assumption God is good, God exists by the Bible being a trusted source?

Can you tell me why I should trust what the Bible says? 
The Bible is one of the avenues one can use to consider whether God is good or not. You can study it, or leave it alone. It's entirely up to you.

Again, this is an avenue for some to conclude God is good. You're not looking for proof of God's existence, but asking why some consider (or assume) God is good, right?
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@RoderickSpode
Is destroying every living thing on the planet, sans a few, good? Does the bible claim that it's god did that?
TheRealNihilist
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@RoderickSpode
Again, this is an avenue for some to conclude God is good. You're not looking for proof of God's existence, but asking why some consider (or assume) God is good, right?
If I assume God exists. I am not assuming the Biblical God exists which means you still need to tell me how the Bible is a trusted source. 
RoderickSpode
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@TheRealNihilist


Again, this is an avenue for some to conclude God is good. You're not looking for proof of God's existence, but asking why some consider (or assume) God is good, right?
If I assume God exists. I am not assuming the Biblical God exists which means you still need to tell me how the Bible is a trusted source. 
Fair enough. I actually realized after posting the question about whether or not you would become a Christian if a qualified scientist submitted an
article for peer review, that I left out part of what I intended on posting. So, I'll do it again giving a revised question.

If a qualifed scientist submitted an article for peer review that gave evidence of not just God's existence, but specifically the Biblical God, would you become a Christian?


Most people who are agnostic and atheist will admit that if there is a creator, "it" can communicate with humans in a way such that there's no question that it's the creator communicating. I never seem to be able to get a straight answer on whether or not the creator could also communicate to humans individually instead of collectlivley. But, I trust that they would go along with that as well. So, if you can add assuming the God of the Bible communicates to individuals, then hopefully you can see why the Bible is strongly considered. If someone receives direct knowledge that the God of the Bible is real, then it would stand for reason that most likely the Bible is part of his form of communication.


Does that make sense?

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@RoderickSpode
You keep missing the point, the bible is the claim it isn't evidence.
TheRealNihilist
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@RoderickSpode
If a qualifed scientist submitted an article for peer review that gave evidence of not just God's existence, but specifically the Biblical God, would you become a Christian?
Okay. Lets see what you come up with.
So, if you can add assuming the God of the Bible communicates to individuals, then hopefully you can see why the Bible is strongly considered.
That can't be assumed. It has to be proven. 


RoderickSpode
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@TheRealNihilist
If a qualifed scientist submitted an article for peer review that gave evidence of not just God's existence, but specifically the Biblical God, would you become a Christian?
Okay. Lets see what you come up with.
I wasn't offering anything. I was asking you a yes or no question.


That can't be assumed. It has to be proven.
So now we moved from prove the existence of God to prove the Bible is trustworthy.

If you can assume God exists, why can't you assume the God of the Bible?

Unless the subject of this thread is now prove the Bible is trustworthy.
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@RoderickSpode
I wasn't offering anything. I was asking you a yes or no question.
So even if I say yes you don't have it? 
So now we moved from prove the existence of God to prove the Bible is trustworthy.

If you can assume God exists, why can't you assume the God of the Bible?

Unless the subject of this thread is now prove the Bible is trustworthy.
Since you are speaking about the Biblical God it would require the Bible to be factual. 

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@TheRealNihilist
I wasn't offering anything. I was asking you a yes or no question.
So even if I say yes you don't have it? 

As I said, science doesn't deal outside of our natural realm. So I wouldn't expect it to reveal who or which creator it is.

Like the ant farm. The ants have no way of knowing they reside in an intelligently created atmosphere. If they were able to reason, upon hearing tales of their great great antcestors being placed in there from a strange outside world, they may ridicule the one's who believe, or contemplate the idea. Because naturalism has an advantage of appearing the more reasonable, even if it's simply to forget about the outside of that glass container (which of course would be considered a natural phenomenon). The only way an ant will have a reference point of a designer of their artificial enclave, is if the creator should stick his finger in and let the ants crawl on it. It requires an intervention by the creator of the ant farm taking the initiative from the outside realm of what the ants would assume to be a natural environment.


Since you are speaking about the Biblical God it would require the Bible to be factual. 
What I mean is, why are you, for the sake of the topic of this thread, able to assume a creator, which you stated doesn't exist, but not the creator referred to in the Bible?




TheRealNihilist
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@RoderickSpode
As I said, science doesn't deal outside of our natural realm. So I wouldn't expect it to reveal who or which creator it is.
But what other standard do you have in giving consistent results on what is going on outside our realm?
What I mean is, why are you, for the sake of the topic of this thread, able to assume a creator, which you stated doesn't exist, but not the creator referred to in the Bible?
Alright fine. God exists how is it the Biblical one?
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@TheRealNihilist
As I said, science doesn't deal outside of our natural realm. So I wouldn't expect it to reveal who or which creator it is.
But what other standard do you have in giving consistent results on what is going on outside our realm?
I'm not sure what you mean?

Alright fine. God exists how is it the Biblical one?
Aren't we back to where we were? You already compromised by assuming God exists.

The problem with evidence is that in our natural realm, we can always assume a natural explanation. If a giant finger showed up in the sky giving a sky written message, something like, Jesus is the Son of God, inevitably some would claim it was extra-terrestrials. That's why I asked if you would become a Christian. If say, a giant finger showed up in the sky producing said sky-writing, would you believe the message, or assume extra-terrestrials?


Mopac
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Alright fine. God exists how is it the Biblical one?


The God of the bible is the God of the church. That being the case, what the church teaches about God is what matters, and considering part of what lead me to the church was me recognizing the God in the bible, I think that counts for independent verification.

A monk at Mount Athos wrote this, and I think it gives a very important clue into how we understand God as definitively being good.



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@RoderickSpode
This is what you claim is a good god? Or is the book not trustworthy or perhaps the characters in the book not trustworthy?

And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Sam 15:1‑3)
I'm certain you will run away from this as you do all my posts
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@Mopac
This is what you claim is a good god? Or is the book not trustworthy or perhaps the characters in the book not trustworthy?

And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Sam 15:1‑3)

Mopac
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@disgusted
No doubt, God is good. 




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@Mopac
What you mean is, genocide is good. Huzzah.