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@disgusted
But then that answer from within the fantasy would be the answer. You don't like it or agree with it but that doesn't make it any less of an answer.
The Ten Commandments...........
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@rosends
What language did your answer claim?
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@rosends
Who claims that using what supporting evidence?
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@rosends
Fantasies don't provide answers.
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@disgusted
I offered nbo evidence. I simply am reporting the discussion about the question from 2000 years ago.
The answer is faith based. If you don't share the faith, you won't accept the answer.
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@disgusted
Fantasies often don't provide proof. They provide answers, though.
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@rosends
post 34
Fantasies don't provide answers
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@disgusted
If someone asks me "what do you want to be when you grow up" and I answer "a watermelon" that's still an answer.
We could explain oral tradition until things were written down but he might thing we are hitting on him and get a woody.
ZEUS says : the ultimate commandment is live well and without the GODS.. only a fool would pray and worship a doll and its Comic Books
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@disgusted
How did the alleged hebrews kearn Alpha Centaurian, especially since they believed that stars were just little lights in the dome above their flat earth?
Where is your evidence to support that claim? How do you know that the ancient Hebrews believed that the stars were only "just little lights in the sky" ? And how do you know that the ancient Hebrews were believers in the "flat earth" when the Old Testament indicates otherwise?
Or do we file this under as yet another ridiculous and outrageous unsupported claim of yours along with these below?
@disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "the word god did not exist before the middle ages"
No proof offered by the claimant.
@disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
No proof offered by the claimant
but unavoidable in the enlightening of man@disgusted Then how did cavemen come up with it?
Do you have evidence for that claim? Did "cavemen " have a religion? Did they worship gods?
The TC were probably some oral traditions handed down over time until written mediums were developed.
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@Goldtop
The TC were probably some oral traditions handed down over time until written mediums were developed.
These commandments according to E.A. Wallis Budge late keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities in the British Museum; in his transliteration of the Book of the Dead has texts called The Negative Confessions of Ani. amongst which one will find lines such as;
Ani saith:
“I have not done iniquity”.
“I have not robbed with Violence”.
“I have not stolen”.
“I have not done murder”.
“I have not done harm”.
“I have not plundered God”.
" I have not defrauded offerings”.
“I have not committed fornication”.
“I have not set my lips against any man”
“I have not defiled the wife of any man”
I have not caused pain” (The papyrus of Ani).
The Egyptian Book of the Dead. (The papyrus of Ani). Egyptian Transliteration and Translation. Dover Publications. New York.1967. page 347-349.
And Moses has similar written by - some believe - the finger of God amongst His commandments;
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Exodus 20:13-17.NKJV
So it seems that is all Moses (which is not a name at all but a title) has done, is turn a prayer of Egyptian confessions from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, into laws and dictates.
The same can be said for what is known as ' The Lord's Prayer', this too is believed by some to be an Egyptian original - A Prayer to Amen.
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@Goldtop
Yeah but that's not what their book of lies claims.
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@disgusted
Of course we are talking about legend, not history! I think it's safe to say the 'plot-hole' of which language the commandments were written in was ignored for the sake of the narrative, a bit like the way aliens can speak English in sci-fi movies and we are not supposed to wonder how or why.
Writing was the preserve of an elite and that elite would be keen to maintain its air of mystery and magic to the hoi-polloi. Ordinary Hebrews could not read, and didn't really know how writing worked. For the masses, writing was part of the magical world of the priests.
The priests and scribes could rely on no one outside their circle raising the problem... I admit I hadn't thought of it until gussie pointed it out! It's all part of the 'suspension of disbelief' needed to make fiction work.
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@keithprosser
Yeah I know mate but it sure gets them running around all confused which I like. You're right about the fantasy and it's why I bring it up, it's like them quoting god when god doesn't dictate so the alleged quotes are nothing but lies, chooks without heads.
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@Stephen
But then again any remotely civilised society is going to outlaw things like murder and theft and will want to discourage challenges to established authority. The similarity could be due to shared purpose rather than explicit borrowing. Something like the code of Hammurabbi also bear comparison with the 10 commandments.
I wonder if ancient Hebrews culture and religion derives much more from Mesopotamia than Egypt.
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@keithprosser
I wonder if ancient Hebrews culture and religion derives much more from Mesopotamia than Egypt.
As you probably know but for reasons known only to yourself, are pretending not to know that The Old Testament clearly states where Abraham originated from, on more than one occasion. I am sure mopac wouldn't want to accept these facts but there they are for anyone to read .
Oh I get it,! You don't believe a word of the bible do you, and you, as usual,do not want to commit yourself to appear to be supporting a myth or a "legend". Why do you even bother? When you have two of your own abandon threads waiting for answers, here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707
And here
But there again any civilised society is going to outlaw things like murder and theft and will want to discourage challenges to established authority. The similarity could be due to shared purpose rather than explicit borrowing.
Ya don't say
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@Stephen
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"
It is a mistake to think these things have origin in a particular culture when these things can be revealed from God to those who have purified their heart through the removing of the passions.
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@Mopac
Whether gods exists or not, any society that persists more than a generation or two is going to need rules.
I know nothing about ancient Chinese law codes, but despite almost zero contact between the Chinese and the Hebrew god 4000 years go the chinese wiould have outlawed murder and theft etc.
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@keithprosser
The "Hebrew God" is not a product of culture, therefore you make err when you say, "...despite almost zero contact between...".
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@keithprosser
And why your fixation on just 10 of these commandments when in truth there are over 600 including:
How to sell your daughter and kill a disobedient son and how to treat your slaves. The Old Testament is a vile book of war and dictatorship with nothing in between.
But at least now, here in the 21st century Jews/Israelis over the centuries have actually taken the right steps required in a ever changing world and have abandoned these vile practices unlike Islam where, as Raza Rumi so clearly states that , in Islam the "requirements of a changing world have been sidestepped". But of course you know this don't you keith, it is from your link on this thread here>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707 and the link you asked me to look at but it seems, didn't bother to read it for yourself.
The prospect for reform in Islam: https://www.hudson.org/research/11172-the-prospects-for-reform-in-islam
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@Mopac
Mopac,
How important is Moses to the Orthodox Catholic Church? And why?
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@Stephen
He is important in that The Orthodox Catholic Church is Israel, and Moses was used by God to help prepare the church for Jesus Christ.
The Mosaic religion ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. The Church went on to become The Orthodox Catholic Church. Rabbinic Judaism descended from the pharisees who did not accept Jesus Christ.
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@Mopac
He is important in that The Orthodox Catholic Church is Israel, and Moses was used by God to help prepare the church for Jesus Christ.
Did Moses know that he was being used to help prepare the church of Jesus Christ?
The Mosaic religion ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.
I don't think so, but that is very debatable. Moses was of the celestial house of the ram hence all the references to rams and rams horns. There are over 40 references to the ram and all come in the Old Testament. And depending on which gospel you take literally, Jesus was the last of the shepherd kings and he ushered in the new celestial house of the Fish - Pieces hence all the references to fish and fishermen in the New Testament. And it has to be taken into account that there is at least 5-7oo years missing from these histories - from the end of the OT to the beginning of the NT that can only be gleaned from extra biblical literature. Astrology and astronomy played a massive part in the lives of the ancients. It was a vital science to them. They swore by what was going on in the "heavens" and were ruled by what was going on in the "heavens". The movements and positions of stars and planets was their calendar " for it is where it is written", what happened above the heads of these ancients ruled their lives and dictated, among other things, whose time it was to rule or more precise, which house was to rule. And Jesus makes this fact very clear.
I am not interested in whether you accept what I say or not , I honestly don't care, it is what you have to say that interests me. As long as it is not your usual perpetual mantra.
Anyway I just wanted your opinion on why Moses was important to your church.
Did Moses know that he was being used to help prepare the church of Jesus Christ?
The Word of God is Jesus Christ. That being the case, Jesus Chriist was with Moses. The Law was given to Moses, because "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God", and the purpose of The Law was to guide Israel into purity of heart.
I am not interested in whether you accept what I say or not , I honestly don't care, it is what you have to say that interests me. As long as it is not your usual perpetual mantra.
Well then for the benefit of others who may be interested in whether I accept what you just said or not, I of course think it is a load of neo-gnostic pagan nonsense.
Nonsense that if you hold on to will be a stumbling block to knowing Jesus Christ.
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@Stephen
@Mopac
PGA 2.0 is big on that too. The theological problem that idea is intended to solve is the incompatability of the OT and NT version of God. The god of the OT is YHWH, the tribal god of the Hebrews. The religion of YHWH was all about rituals, sacrifice, war and earthly life. Theoloically, the Christian god is nothing like yhwh!The Mosaic religion ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple.
To appropriate the Hebrew god, Christian theology invented the idea that yhwh broke with the jews and transferred his patronge to the gentile world. In Christian theology, the destruction of the temple was by God's will (how could it be otherwise?), and was the outward sign that God rejected the Jews as they had rejected his son.
That theological nonsense played a large part in creating 2000 years of anti-semitism. The historical reality is that a nationalist uprising was put rthlessly down by a powerful empire. Non-existent Gods had no hand in it. Christianity practically invented anti-semitism.
Whether you think Jesus is god or not there is no evidence he existed so to say he was a man is just as much a lie as he is a god. Fucking morons.
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@keithprosser
PGA 2.0 is not an Orthodox Christian.
But your theory is simply a false narrative.
The Church is certainly not antisemitic. This is a preposterous claim for a multitude of reasons.
1. All of the apostles were Jewish.
2. A good chunk of the early church was Jewish.
3. Jews are not the only semitic people. The church I go to was planted by semitic immigrants.
4. The official position of tbe church is that we do not oppress anyone or anyone or act unjustly to others simply they are heterodox.
5. Jews are welcome into the church(in fact, my best friend is a Christian who is ethnically Jewish).
The Orthodox Catholic Church is Israel. The people today who call themselves Jews descend from the pharasitic sect of Judaism that ended up becoming Rabbinic Judaism.
We love them, but we do consider them to be in heresy. Rabbinic Judaism is not the same religion as the mosaic religion, and all modern forms of Judaism decend from Rabbinic Judaism.
If you really want to get into the history of why this schism took place, it has much to do with the fact that Roman law granted privledges to Jews so long as they didn't proselytize or convert anybody to Judaism. As Christians welcomed gentile converts, it was bringing negative attention to all Jews. So Jesus Christ was rejected by what we today call the Jews as a matter of earthly survival...
As it is written...
"Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."
The Orthodox Catholic Church is open to Jew and gentile alike, because it is common faith that unites us. We are certainly not anti-semitic or even anti-Jewish. We certainly have a right to believe and profess that they are in error for rejecting their God. Just as we have a right to believe and profess that sexual immorality is sinful. We don't believe or profess these things because we hate, on the contrary, it is because we love that we speak the truth. It is a lot easier to tell people what they want to hear rather than the truth. The Church isn't in tge business of oppressing anyone or administering justice. The Church is not a secular government, nor does it wish to be.