Who created god?

Author: Outplayz

Posts

Total: 63
Topic's author
#1
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
I have always found this to be the worst argument atheists make in opposition to god. It has a simple answer in my opinion. Time, space, energy, etc., that are the cause of this god's manifestation. I know others say no time, etc... but, i will use the platform i find most logical. If these "forces" are eternal, or infinite... then, all it would take is a certain arrangement of them to manifest an incorporeal intelligence which then evolves and become something like a god. 

Time and space being infinite is the platform. Energy, etc. (i say etc bc there can be other material that we aren't aware of); this arranges in such a way to create a mind. The mind is born and has been evolving and growing for eons. Therefore, all of this being the cause to this immortal consciousness and/or gods' manifestation. 

I don't think it is far fetched for me to imagine such a platform since from what it looks like... there is infinite space and time. If that isn't true, then i am wrong... however, i don't think anyone can argue against it and furthermore, argue that it isn't what most likely is going on. Therefore, i think my conjecture is the best answer to who created god... time, space, energy... the infinite platforms being the cause of this "minds" manifestation. You can extend this type of logic to any god.    


#2
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Outplayz
Really it depends on which god is under discussion. Many gods have a very definite origin story (for example Zeus wad the son of chronos and his mother fed chronos a stone in swaddling in order to prevent the infant god from being devoured). 

Topic's author
#3
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
I guess it does depend on a god. The logic above is just an answer to how it could be possible and/or the cause of some type of immortal intelligence. Gods could fall under that... i actually think it is more in line with polytheism than monotheism. Bc the one god religions say that there god has no cause and has always been infinitely what it is and all the "Omnis." With my logic, said god would still have to evolve and grow. 

I am just wondering if the logic of time, space, and energy being the "cause" could extend to these gods as well. When one asks who cause god? Let's say the Christian god... would it not be logical to say "time, space and energy"?  
#4
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
Nothing created the first Source, even if you go into quantum physics and you travel down through the atom and nucleus all the way down to the base level it's a static, immaterial intelligent reality. The same with our own experience, you can go back no further than the wall, that wall is your observation point and that observation point is your conscious awareness. Now imagine that same reality on a gigantic scale, an omnipresent awareness which first projected the mind. Remember we discussed how a mind is useless without an observer? that's why it's more feasible to consider that conscious awareness came first. 
Just like quantum physics proposes, there is a fixed, static state of omni present awareness which manifests form in creation through the universal mind. 
This reality was never created, it does not exist in an illusion where a material universe passes in linear time through the movement of matter and space, the illusion of time is nothing but a picture play on the backdrop of an immoveable conscious reality that projects Itself in creation through form, and to experience life through the illusion of time and space. Knowing this, it removes the problem of an infinite regress. I know, you say we have no problem with an infinite regress simply because we are here and I agree, just pointing it out so we don't have to rehash it. 
#5
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
In my humble opinion, it makes more sense that a conscious reality projected the universal mind, which then perceived creation.....rather than to say that somehow a universe formed, then created a mind and then created consciousness. IDK but the former seems more likely to me. You are the observer of the mind, and the player in creation, therefore the observer, which is awareness comes through the mind and implements what it wants....
#6
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
How exactly do we assign a likelihood to either of those possibilities?
#7
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Outplayz

#8
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
Through common sense and personal experience. The reality that we are first a conscious being that takes of embodiments have been around as long as Hindu texts. This is true, you are a conscious being inhabiting a material body, using material forms to navigate creation. 
#9
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
By making a claim you have shouldered a burden of proof.

In your initial post you clearly onky say that you believe something and that it only "makes more sense" to you. That is not a claim and requires no burden of proof in and of itself though it does beg the question why how you have assigned this probability.

This statement is different.

You have claimed that it is a reality that we are first a concious being and that we then inhabit a material form. Do you have any proof that we exist before we are born or that we continue to exist after we die or did you mean to say that you believe these things and that it would "make more sense" to you?






Topic's author
#10
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@EtrnlVw
I'll check out that link in a little when i have some time. They way you describe it... could be true. I can't say it can't... it's logical. 
Topic's author
#11
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@EtrnlVw
As you know, i like it where the universe is infinite which is the platform that gives rise to intelligence. However, i can't say that consciousness isn't infinite which gave rise to the universe(s). Ultimately, we lead to similar implications with either or being right. 
#12
Buddamoose
Buddamoose's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 3,178
2
3
6
Buddamoose's avatar
Buddamoose
2
3
6
God's parents 🤔, the universe is just essentially a bored kid doodling on the wall cause hes grounded and *woops* now we have genocide and supernovas...

😏

#13
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Outplayz
Yep I was thinking the same thing. Our platforms are in opposite order but our beliefs that follow are virtually identical. 
#14
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
Proof no, evidence absolutely and you know exactly what that is. As well, you know my beliefs are based on my own experiences and spiritual sources. Does it make more sense, obviously it does as it answers many questions but that is only common sense, there's more than just common sense. I said common sense AND personal experience.
#15
vagabond
vagabond's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 277
0
2
3
vagabond's avatar
vagabond
0
2
3
In answer to the question posed.................mankind.
#16
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
I believe the gods are beings who have evolved on their own worlds. 
Topic's author
#17
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Nice. The way i look at it is actually best suited to explain gods such as the ones you worship. That is why i have always been more of a polytheist than theist when it comes to it... those gods make more sense. 
Topic's author
#18
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@vagabond
That could be... or, humans ability to imagine something might be deeper. We are after all the only creatures with the capacity to imagine other worlds. Could it be bc we have witnessed these other worlds? Maybe... i think so. 
#19
Stronn
Stronn's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 511
2
2
4
Stronn's avatar
Stronn
2
2
4
-->
@Outplayz
Asking who created God seems like a perfectly valid way to counter the theist assertion that all things require a creator. If theists alter the assertion to say that all things except God require a creator, then they are hard-pressed to do so without special pleading or circular reasoning.

As for your assertion that "time, space, energy, etc." caused God to manifest, how is that qualitatively different than asserting "time, space, energy, etc." caused the universe to manifest? The latter explanation seems superior by Occam's razor.

Topic's author
#20
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@Stronn
First of all, i have never found Occam's razor being an appropriate approach to something such as life. It is too big of a scale to just say that. With that said, i am not arguing for if the universe was created or not. My main spiritual belief says just like you are saying... sure, the universe was caused by the same logic. What i am saying is it is just as conceivable that a god could manifest, just as you say our universe did, given those causes. 

The main part of the question when people ask who created god is that there isn't a cause, or that there isn't an answer... that's what i disagree with bc there most certainly is an answer to what the cause could be. So, just as likely that worlds, universes, etc. can manifest given enough time, space, etc. I do not see why a mind such as one like a gods couldn't also manifest. 

This view is more inline with my personal main spiritual belief that we are immortal consciousness manifested as a mortal to experience. But, i can see the logic working for various other types of gods, or at the very least it provides an answer to the question. Most people think they have stumped me when they ask ... "well, who created god... muhaha, got you" .. not  ;P 



#21
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@EtrnlVw
Saying an unexplainable force is responsible is the opposite of an explanation. 
#22
vagabond
vagabond's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 277
0
2
3
vagabond's avatar
vagabond
0
2
3
-->
@Outplayz
Imagination is most assuredly the answer.
#23
MagicAintReal
MagicAintReal's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 258
1
3
7
MagicAintReal's avatar
MagicAintReal
1
3
7
-->
@Outplayz
Time, space, energy, etc., that are the cause of this god's manifestation.
If time, space, energy, etc. caused "this god's" manifestation, then
1. Why aren't time, space, energy, etc. god?
2. Spacetime and energy had an origin, so why is god necessary here?


I know others say no time, etc...
Yeah if there's no time then there's no temporal series of events like causation or creation.
No time, no precedence, no determining the agent of causation.


but, i will use the platform i find most logical. If these "forces" are eternal, or infinite
Which they both are demonstrably not.


... then, all it would take is a certain arrangement of them to manifest an incorporeal intelligence which then evolves and become something like a god.
Yeah, but if you've already got the forces and they're self-arranging, then why the god?
You're just adding in god.


Time and space being infinite is the platform.
If we ignore cosmology, astronomy, astrophysics, and quantum mechanics, sure...


Energy, etc. (i say etc bc there can be other material that we aren't aware of)
Like what?


; this arranges in such a way to create a mind.
If self arranging, then why the mind?


The mind is born and has been evolving and growing for eons. Therefore, all of this being the cause to this immortal consciousness and/or gods' manifestation.
Why aren't the self arranging forces more godly than this god you arbitrarily manifested?


I don't think it is far fetched for me to imagine such a platform since from what it looks like... there is infinite space and time.
Spacetime may expand infinitely however, it had a clear origin.


If that isn't true, then i am wrong... however, i don't think anyone can argue against it
You are wrong and I just argued against it.


and furthermore, argue that it isn't what most likely is going on.
Spacetime had an origin and no mind is needed with self arranging forces and energy.
The mind is a construct of the human brain or at the very least a construct of neural substrates and neuroanatomical components.
The mind is contingent on brains or the very least neuronal substrates.


Therefore, i think my conjecture is the best answer to who created god
No, your conjecture is basically postulating another god that created "this god", and this other god would just be self-arranging forces and energy.


... time, space, energy... the infinite platforms being the cause of this "minds" manifestation. You can extend this type of logic to any god.
Hmmm.
The god of Heliolatry is the sun,
Infinite platforms caused its mind,
The sun has a mind.

Doesn't work.


Topic's author
#24
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@MagicAintReal
If time, space, energy, etc. caused "this god's" manifestation, then 1. Why aren't time, space, energy, etc. god?2. Spacetime and energy had an origin, so why is god necessary here?

As a god, i mean an intelligent/conscious source. You can say the sun is god, sure, but that isn't what i mean. Sure, "our" spacetime had an orgin... but, we aren't even really sure about that. What of our universe is the result of another universe's black hole. The big bang being the stars death and our expansion being everything getting sucked into the black hole. I made that up, but i am sure there is a scientific theory on it and many other alternatives. Point being, we don't know. Even if i go with the origin that you are saying. It is "our spacetime" that had an origin, but we don't know if it was around before the big bang. I am presupposing that it has always been. 

Yeah if there's no time then there's no temporal series of events like causation or creation.No time, no precedence, no determining the agent of causation.
I agree with this. I don't see how a god can exist without time... or anything for that matter. 

Which they both are demonstrably not.
You are talking about 'our' spacetime... i am presupposing that there are multiverses and in that regard these infinite platforms. 

Yeah, but if you've already got the forces and they're self-arranging, then why the god?You're just adding in god.
I am saying in an infinite setting that it is possible for other minds to manifest. I go as far as they had nothing to do with this universe creation. Sure, this universe self arranged and is what it is... but, life is the manifestation of an eternal type mind that can traverse these platforms. It is a spiritual hypothesis to how life manifests. 

Like what?

I don't know. Maybe other forms of dark energy or matter... other particles. It isn't known to us. It could be an entire universe with reverse laws. 

Why aren't the self arranging forces more godly than this god you arbitrarily manifested?

You are playing with the word god. In regards to what i am talking about here, i mean a thinking, conscious, intelligent, etc entity. Maybe in another universe energy can think, if so that counts... other than that, i am not talking about things like the sun being god. 

Spacetime may expand infinitely however, it had a clear origin

Well interesting, we have one infinity here. I am presupposing that it has always been infinite. Before the big bang was another universe, or something. I don't think the big bang was the only event to have ever happened. I believe multiple universe, or infinite platforms, are the most likely truth. I don't know for sure... but i would put my money on it. 

The mind is a construct of the human brain or at the very least a construct of neural substrates and neuroanatomical components.The mind is contingent on brains or the very least neuronal substrates.
First of all, if one day we create A.I. and further, self thinking A.I. ... a mind can also be formed by plastics and metals. I am just saying there are other minds. I highly doubt that we are the only minds that have ever existed. 

To your last too points. In regards to my point here... the sun and other objects that can't think, etc... don't fit into my definition of "god(s)."   






#25
MagicAintReal
MagicAintReal's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 258
1
3
7
MagicAintReal's avatar
MagicAintReal
1
3
7
-->
@Outplayz
spacetime had an orgin... but, we aren't even really sure about that.
The inverse of the Hubble constant takes you back to zero spacetime.
We are sure about spacetime having an origin down to the energy density of the first bit of spacetime.


What of our universe is the result of another universe's black hole.
Then the multiverse theory is correct?


It is "our spacetime" that had an origin, but we don't know if it was around before the big bang. I am presupposing that it has always been. 
Our spacetime was not around "before" the big bang, the big bang is marked by the origin of space with energy density.
"Before" or precedence is a temporal concept, so when there was no spacetime there were no temporal concepts like before or precedence.
You dismissed this earlier, but this is the flaw in your whole idea, that sans time there is no before or preceding creator of whatever it is that you are postulating.


I don't see how a god can exist without time...
Now really focus here.
You're claiming that god is contingent on something and that something is time.
Why isn't time your god's god?


 life is the manifestation of an eternal type mind 
What?
So much life has no mind at all.
Can you demonstrate a mind WITHOUT a brain or neurons?
Sans this demonstration, you asserting this is wildly ridiculous.


 It is a spiritual hypothesis to how life manifests. 
The problem is that nothing in life indicates a spirit.
Nothing.
So attempting to approach how life comes about spiritually is like trying to figure out how a tumor came about via a voodoo doll.
Way off.


 i mean a thinking, conscious, intelligent, etc entity.
Why would a god have to be intelligent or conscious?
I made a point earlier that since you think everything is contingent on the existence of time that time is in fact the god you're ultimately postulating and it is not conscious or intelligent.
Why are you arbitrarily adding such a human/higher order mammalian construct like intelligence or consciousness to a god?
This will get to the root of your wild god belief.


I am presupposing that it has always been infinite. 
Why?
What, if anything, indicates that to you?
No personal credulity fallacies please.


Before the big bang was another universe, 
Can you explain what before means without using temporal concepts intrinsic in our spacetime?
If you can, you'll be the first.


. the sun and other objects that can't think, etc... don't fit into my definition of "god(s)."
Why?
Because they actually exist?
#26
Beelzedad
Beelzedad's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 35
0
0
1
Beelzedad's avatar
Beelzedad
0
0
1
-->
@Outplayz
While it's fine to use your imagination to imagine things, it's a fools errand to do so without using knowledge if a worldview is what you're trying to achieve. Space, time, energy are all phemonema that resulted from the Big Bang. You're putting the cart before the horse.

Topic's author
#27
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@MagicAintReal
I've explained a god theory and that's all... you are reading way too much into it. You keep asking why or how... i have no idea. You saying nothing points to spirituality i disagree with. I think there is sufficient anecdotal spiritual experiences to at the very least suspect. That is my own subjective opinion, you may think the spiritual experiences aren't worth it.. and that's your own right.

Sure energy, time, whatever is a god. If that is how you want to define it. God's god is time. I don't care if that is true. I will stick to that it is possible to have other forms of intelligence. I can't prove it, but i think there is. There is as much proof so spirituality as there is before the big bang. Both can you have ideas about but not know for sure. 

Do i think multiverses are true? Yep. Again all of this is an opinion since there is no hard evidence... just hypothesis. Personal credulity fallacies? How can you have a fallacy when i am not debate either or. I am just saying all of that is more possible in my opinion, which is subjective to me. 

Plus, you have basically explained my who'll op's point anyways. Time is god's god. I find saying what is the cause of a god to be a bad question bc sure... simply time could be its cause. I am not here to argue what this universe is and how time came up. "Our" spacetime had a beginning, sure. But you have no idea if there was time around before. So as you said, "If you can, you'll be the first."

Topic's author
#28
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@Beelzedad
While it's fine to use your imagination to imagine things, it's a fools errand to do so without using knowledge if a worldview is what you're trying to achieve. Space, time, energy are all phemonema that resulted from the Big Bang. You're putting the cart before the horse.
I will admit i have used my imagination to create the current spiritual platform i believe in but it hasn't been made only by imagination. I have anecdotal evidence of experiences that seemingly where spiritual in nature. My belief conforms to these experiences and my imagination. However, i believe our imaginations are equivalent to Thors power of thunder; it's our superpower. Therefore, i don't think we should dismiss ideas just bc we imagined them. 

I never contested that our spacetime was created at the Big bang. Although there are theories against it... i feel the BB is the most viable theory. But, there is the iron clad hypothesis of anything before the big bang. I am simply presupposing that all of those "forces" have been around before the big bang, and our eternal. That is all that is needed for my specific spiritual belief to work out. Therefore, i am taking a leap of logic but subjectively i don't it's a bad leap to take. All we know is that "our" spacetime had a start. We have no idea what was before the BB. It simply isn't logical, to me, that time and space had a start, in general. It is much more logical that they have always existed. That's the science i believe anyways. You are free to believe whichever you like most, but don't pretend like you have definitive proof either way... i certainly am not.  



#29
Beelzedad
Beelzedad's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 35
0
0
1
Beelzedad's avatar
Beelzedad
0
0
1
-->
@Outplayz
I am simply presupposing
Yes, you were. That was my point.

Topic's author
#30
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@Beelzedad
Yes, you were. That was my point.

Sure. Who cares. You don't have to believe my view. but when i talk about my view i believe it more than not for reasons. If you agree with these reason is up to you. I have never cared very much in effecting other people's logic. Actually my belief, overall, makes more sense if you don't believe it. All i know is that you don't know anymore than what are current science shows you. And our current science doesn't know... therefore, i get to presuppose my opinion. Like i said, if later i find out i am objectively wrong, i will drop my current belief.